Xmas is coming - part 2

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p123

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Xmas is coming - part 2
« on: December 09, 2019, 01:18:57 PM »
Hope no-one minds - the previous one closed.

I think a few of you have misunderstood some of what I said.

You're right it is none of my business whether he visits, his wife visits, or he send his cat - I dont care. I've told him this in the past when hes trying to tell me his wife can't go as much because her own Dad is ill "good for her!" I've said.

Brother does rope it all into "shared responsibilities". His wife helps out so mine should as well in his eyes. Like I said, I don't care if she goes or not. Up to her totally. Same with my brother - visit or not I don't care. This is what we've argued about - leave me out of the joint idea - not interested. I have a BIG ISSUE with him when hes texting my wife being abusive telling her what HE thinks she should be doing for our Dad. His excuse is well his wife does it so why can't mind. You can see what I mean?

As some of you have said, I've stepped out and said, please don't contact my wife, I will speak to Dad to arrange things between us, you and you're wife do what you like.

And finally, I do have a bit of a reason for having a problem with his wifes visits. She did it for a while then told Dad he was going to be his official "carer" and she could get money off the government so it'd work out well for both of them. No-one mentioned it to me until they wanted me to get info for them. Of course, Dad was well up for the idea, he doesn't need a carer at all but, hey, hes happy to have someone running around.

So I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2019, 01:24:30 PM »
WI - do you know what? Someone else said that in another thread.....

Dad is getting SO obsessive about it that its getting well weird. He actually started shouting at me down the phone last week when I told him I was going for a meal with people from work and then driving home. Nuts, eh? I put the phone down.

Next day I said "right this needs to stop". He did it again a few days later. He knew I was going out again (this time I was on the train, staying over). Even then he had to stay "so you definitely didnt take the car then!". Jeez no I might have accidentally not thought and done it anyway.

But it all sort of makes sense. If I couldn't drive I pretty much could not visit him ever. Its probably an hour plus on the train each way.....

Wait until I go to Glastonbury music festival next year. He'll see on TV how many drug arrests there are and be convinced I'm on crack or something..... Mentioned it last year, only about 40 times....To be honest, last year, I had a few pints of cider, had a stomach upset (always use hand gel!) and was too ill to drink all weekend. RocknRoll eh?

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SunnyMeadow

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2019, 11:15:28 AM »
Hope no-one minds - the previous one closed.

I think a few of you have misunderstood some of what I said.

The previous Xmas is Coming topic was 5 pages, are we going to try for another 5 pages? I didn't misunderstand anything.

The way I see it, your brother has a right not to have Dad at Christmas. You have a right not to have Dad at Christmas, your SIL has a HUGE right not to be a caregiver for Dad especially if she isn't being paid. Who the heck wants to do that for free? 100% not me - no way, no how. I'd say SIL is smart to not even consider it. It would be a huge pain to be a caregiver for your Dad.

It's up to you how much you want to keep talking about Xmas is Coming and how you're going to handle it. The advice given will still be the same. I saw some stellar advice given by a bunch of forum members time and time again. Doesn't matter the fine details or the semantics of exactly what you meant. The advice given was solid and Narc tested. You take care of you and it doesn't matter what brother, SIL and Dad do. Protect yourself, your wife and your children - that's the biggest thing you have to worry about when dealing with your NPD dad.

Quote
So I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

Seems all this extra discussion of brother, SIL, and dad is a distraction beyond the original question. What to do about Xmas. Somewhere in the last thread of Xmas is coming, I believe you decided you aren't having Dad to your house. Your wife doesn't want him and you don't either. That's great! Don't have him, good boundary setting by you. All this other discussion doesn't really matter then. 

I get wanting to talk and rehash details but how much of a benefit is it to you? I think too much of it dilutes what's going on and takes you away from what you need to do. Protect you, wife and children from a narc parent. A blunt reply but I think you're getting caught up in He Said - She Said. Doesn't matter what they're doing. If you pull back from all that, life will be better.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 11:25:51 AM by SunnyMeadow »

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NumbLotus

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2019, 11:53:46 AM »
I agree on the points for Brother and Sister-In-Law. Some things to chew over, p123. I have found that part of FOG is misplacing frustrations - legitimate frustrations, but put in the wrong place.

I think PD is fundamentally about messing up boundaries. So we have to sort of pull apart what's "yours" and what's "mine" since the PDs in our lives have mixed that all up. So it's to be exoected that coming OOTF would involve a learning curve on that - including what's "yours," what's "brother's," what's "SIL's," and what's "father's."

Personally I'm fine if you need another thread to get through Christmas. It's a big year for you because you are taking some very big steps. If you need to vent a bit or get feedback as you go, that seems like a way this forum can support you - and also your wife (so you can manage not to vent to her).
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Fiasco

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2019, 12:45:29 PM »
Youíve got a lot of very excellent advice but you seem stuck on the idea that none of it will work because your dad wonít like it. None of the suggestions youíve been given rely on, or were mean to, change how your dad feels. There comes a time when you have to stop trying to get everyone else in the world to do what you want and to agree that youíre right and to like it.

Your dads money is your dads and itís not your business how he spends it or doesnít. Your brothers familys time is theirs and itís not your business how they spend it. But your know whatís yours? And your business? Your time and your home.

 You have the perfect right to spend Christmas, weekends, after work etc with whomever you like as you and your wife see fit. You donít have to invite anyone to your home that your and your wife donít want there. I hope you can focus on your wonderful family at home this Christmas without obsessing over who else wants to agree that you have the right to do so.

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2019, 01:12:12 PM »
Hope no-one minds - the previous one closed.

I think a few of you have misunderstood some of what I said.

The previous Xmas is Coming topic was 5 pages, are we going to try for another 5 pages? I didn't misunderstand anything.

No not at all. Not referring at all to the thread being closed, any admin decision or the length at all - merely referring to the last few posts in the last one. (which I couldnt answer because it closed).

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2019, 01:21:09 PM »

The way I see it, your brother has a right not to have Dad at Christmas. You have a right not to have Dad at Christmas, your SIL has a HUGE right not to be a caregiver for Dad especially if she isn't being paid. Who the heck wants to do that for free? 100% not me - no way, no how. I'd say SIL is smart to not even consider it. It would be a huge pain to be a caregiver for your Dad.

Quote
So I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

I totally agree but brother didn't see it this way. He thinks he can tell me what to do.

The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one.

Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I'll be honest, I have no problem with her never going to see Dad. She decided all this at least in conjunction with brother. It just rung alarm bells when the visits dropped off massively when it became apparent there was no money to be had.

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2019, 01:22:54 PM »
Youíve got a lot of very excellent advice but you seem stuck on the idea that none of it will work because your dad wonít like it. None of the suggestions youíve been given rely on, or were mean to, change how your dad feels. There comes a time when you have to stop trying to get everyone else in the world to do what you want and to agree that youíre right and to like it.

Your dads money is your dads and itís not your business how he spends it or doesnít. Your brothers familys time is theirs and itís not your business how they spend it. But your know whatís yours? And your business? Your time and your home.

 You have the perfect right to spend Christmas, weekends, after work etc with whomever you like as you and your wife see fit. You donít have to invite anyone to your home that your and your wife donít want there. I hope you can focus on your wonderful family at home this Christmas without obsessing over who else wants to agree that you have the right to do so.

Ha ha maybe I'm thinking its the calm before the storm....... Dads not coming over, waiting for brother to find out and all hell break loose to be honest....

Oh I'm sticking to it......

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NumbLotus

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2019, 01:28:43 PM »
Maybe your SIL has an agenda and is a user, but what we're saying is it's not your problem. It's between your SIL, your brother, and your father.

This is for your GOOD that you can let go of this burden. You can't even change your SIL anyway. All it does is add atress to you, which is bad for you and your FOC.
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illogical

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2019, 01:54:21 PM »
Hi p123,

You posted--

...Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I understand you wanting to protect your dad.  That said, your dad is not incompetent.  He is capable of making his own decisions.

It has been my experience that setting boundaries and following through with consequences for someone not respecting those boundaries is not going to be very successful if you are still invested in the outcome.  Letting go of the outcome-- and this means your dad's reaction-- is paramount to good boundary setting. 

Certainly, if you feel your dad is being unduly taken advantage of, take steps to prevent it.  I would consider seeing an attorney.  But I don't think you can continue worrying about your dad getting upset.  By doing that, you are taking responsibility for his life.  This is not necessary, since he is competent.  And it puts an undue burden on you, and may even lead to you being held "hostage" by your dad's emotions.  That is, that you are still considering his feelings before you make decisions, like setting boundaries.  My humble advice to you is to set your boundaries and let the chips fall where they may with your dad.  I know that's difficult, because you feel responsible for him.  But the reality is, your dad is a competent adult, and while he doesn't always make the right decisions, he needs to know that you aren't going to step in and rescue him from bad ones. 

"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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PeanutButter

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2019, 02:51:08 PM »
123 you said:  "The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one."
But you lie to your dad. (You say you CANT tell him the truth) But you let your dad down when you dont do what he wants!
 IME that is no different.
You said:  "Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him."
It is his money! If he is getting what he wants what is wrong with him spending the money? But thats irrelevant IMO since this was NOT your now SIL that did this!
You said:  "Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him."
IMO NONE of that makes SIL "thick" by any stretch of the imagination! She did nothing wrong by your own recounting of the events. But YOU are blaming HER for your father being like a toddler throwing a tantrum at you. TEXTBOOK triangulation and flying monkey scenario and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. Its your father who is responsible for his own upset. He is responsible for saying now he needs a carer. Your SIL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! Nor is she responsible for the ''things made worse" for you. You are responsible for you putting up with your fathers worst. It is your choice to be enmeshed with him. IMO.

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lkdrymom

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2019, 07:45:15 PM »
Youíve got a lot of very excellent advice but you seem stuck on the idea that none of it will work because your dad wonít like it. None of the suggestions youíve been given rely on, or were mean to, change how your dad feels. There comes a time when you have to stop trying to get everyone else in the world to do what you want and to agree that youíre right and to like it.

Your dads money is your dads and itís not your business how he spends it or doesnít. Your brothers familys time is theirs and itís not your business how they spend it. But your know whatís yours? And your business? Your time and your home.

 You have the perfect right to spend Christmas, weekends, after work etc with whomever you like as you and your wife see fit. You donít have to invite anyone to your home that your and your wife donít want there. I hope you can focus on your wonderful family at home this Christmas without obsessing over who else wants to agree that you have the right to do so.

Ha ha maybe I'm thinking its the calm before the storm....... Dads not coming over, waiting for brother to find out and all hell break loose to be honest....

Oh I'm sticking to it......

I agree with Fiasco.  You seem to want your father to accept your decision AND be happy with it.  We all know that is not going to happen.  But that is ok.  He doesn't have to be happy with anything.  No one is happy all the time yet for some reason we feel are responsible for another person's happiness.  And the funny part is it is usually about a person who is never going to be happy no matter what we do.  You need to make some really good memories with your kids before they are too old.

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2019, 06:31:22 AM »
Maybe your SIL has an agenda and is a user, but what we're saying is it's not your problem. It's between your SIL, your brother, and your father.

This is for your GOOD that you can let go of this burden. You can't even change your SIL anyway. All it does is add atress to you, which is bad for you and your FOC.

Of course. I know I should let it go. Trouble is their actions affect me and how Dad deals with things.

I appreciate we're two different people. BUT he won't let that go and thinks I need to do what he says. It annoys me I know what they're really like and they're dictating to me and calling me names.

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2019, 06:39:42 AM »
123 you said:  "The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one."
But you lie to your dad. (You say you CANT tell him the truth) But you let your dad down when you dont do what he wants!
 IME that is no different.
You said:  "Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him."
It is his money! If he is getting what he wants what is wrong with him spending the money? But thats irrelevant IMO since this was NOT your now SIL that did this!
You said:  "Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him."
IMO NONE of that makes SIL "thick" by any stretch of the imagination! She did nothing wrong by your own recounting of the events. But YOU are blaming HER for your father being like a toddler throwing a tantrum at you. TEXTBOOK triangulation and flying monkey scenario and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. Its your father who is responsible for his own upset. He is responsible for saying now he needs a carer. Your SIL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! Nor is she responsible for the ''things made worse" for you. You are responsible for you putting up with your fathers worst. It is your choice to be enmeshed with him. IMO.

Yeh OK you're right..... Im beginning to realise the triangulation thing. Im washing my hands now and taking a step back.

There is a lot more to the story to be honest. As others have said, I cant change my Dad, my brother, or my SIL. They can all carry on now as far as I'm concerned - Im not interested in the dramas.

Maybe my problem is that I care too much about what happens with my Dad. This is stopping now.

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Leonor

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2019, 10:54:10 AM »
Hi p123,

I just wanted to say that it is normal and humane and kind to care about the members in your family, to feel connected and affected by them, and to experience frustration and worry when they make decisions or take actions or say things that upset you.

One thing that has helped me remain clear is this:

"Caring about someone is different than taking care of someone."

You care about your dad, your brother.  You hope they are happy and regret that they are unhappy. You can appreciate the good times or memories and grieve the painful loss of a good relationship with them now. And you can wish that everything was different, even though it isn't and will never be. That's caring *about* them.

Taking care *of* them is entirely different. It's something that caring people do for people who are too emotionally wounded to do for themselves and too dysfunctional to care about others. Taking care of them means sacrificing your own peace of mind, integrity, and core relationships to enable their harmful behavior. It's not grounded on responsibility, it's not sources from compassion ... And it doesn't, as you've come to realize, even "work".

Just as you and your wife are not responsible for their well-being, your h and b are not responsible for yours. If you feel upset about them, then it is up to you to care for yourself ... To take care of you and yours. Let them go and wish them well, and turn towards the family you have brought into the world to foster, protect and take care of.



« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 11:10:53 AM by Leonor »

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NumbLotus

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2019, 11:15:55 AM »
You nailed it, Leonor!
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Is a friend made enemy
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SunnyMeadow

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2019, 11:30:16 AM »
Quote
So I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?
This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

I totally agree but brother didn't see it this way. He thinks he can tell me what to do.

The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one.

Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I'll be honest, I have no problem with her never going to see Dad. She decided all this at least in conjunction with brother. It just rung alarm bells when the visits dropped off massively when it became apparent there was no money to be had.

I'm not going to keep replying after this. I'm not sure if you're hearing what people are saying and this part 2 topic really doesn't need to be 5 pages of this back and forth. I hope you are hearing some of this, deep down though. For the sake of your wife and children, I hope you can hear what we are pointing out.

I know this stuff is terribly difficult. I grew up in a weird double narc parent, alcoholic, abusive, silent treatment, rage type house. I am trying to sort myself out from all the crap from my childhood and beyond. So I reply with understanding and compassion for you.

When I finally started coming Out of the FOG it's because I began getting angry at my Mom's shitty, ridiculous treatment of me, my dh and children. In my head, I had such rage against her. P123, we are adults for crying out loud. We shouldn't be treated like naughty children who didn't do exactly what mommy or in your case, daddy wanted us to do. How dare they still do this to us? Who the actual F**k does she think she is to treat me this way? I'm the only one who makes an effort to see her and I don't even want to. I have a lot of anger built up against her and it helps me be strong and to change how I react to her waify, sad little problems.

Do you have internal anger toward your dad's bad treatment of you and your family? Maybe you should. It's very helpful and the anger is directed at the person it should be going to. Your Dad. Not your brother or his wife. All this back and forth about brother and SIL is masking where the focus should be, your dad. Focus on untangling yourself from him. You can block your brother and SIL, again or get angry at him and tell him to NEVER contact you about this crap again. Get angry and stand up against his manipulations. Stand up for you, your wife and children. I have no idea what goes on in your day to day life but I hope you can fully disengage from the drama of the dirty 3 to focus on having the best life with your FOC. Stop using your wife and children as excuses you give to your dad. It's ok if the change and anger comes from you. Protect you and them from him.

The way I see it, getting angry and feeling like a fully grown adult helped me get determination to handle the process. My anger isn't loud and rage filled, it's quiet, strong and determined. I've always been the nice, meek, smiley little child who didn't cause problems. That's how my mom walked all over me. I repeat this to myself now, "I'm a fully grown adult and I'm not taking your mean, waify, angry treatment anymore" (actually I use much more colorful and forceful language in my head) It helps me keep my priorities straight when I start falling back into the good little girl mode.

I see that you've posted much of the same things in the Dads, Sibling, Elderly forum areas to get more input. I think all the detail about grocery shopping, taxis, pub, music festivals, SIL carer, wife at work and more are clouding the main problem. Your dad and how you deal with him.

And your last sentence above about your SIL visits dropping off after she discovered there isn't money to be had, this may not be the case at all! Do you know this for sure or are you assuming? Did brother or SIL tell you this directly? She may have gotten a good clear look at how your dad manipulates people and decided to forget the whole mess. Maybe she finally got angry and put her foot down.



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Fiasco

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2019, 11:52:33 AM »
Sunny Meadow is right. We appreciate what youíre dealing with because hello, nobody would be here if we hadnít dealt with another version of the same.

The rules of this forum  are pretty clear that youíre not supposed to start threads just for venting or as a personal diary.

You argue with literally every response to every comment. Your brother and his wife whom I have nothing but sympathy for by the way do not ďaffect your lifeĒ. You choose to give a crap what they do and you cause it to affect your life.

We all initially came here because we were hoping we could improve the behavior of someone else but guess what. The only person you can control is yourself. Thatís the secret. Thatís the whole truth.

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p123

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 12:25:57 PM »
Quote
So I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?
This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

I totally agree but brother didn't see it this way. He thinks he can tell me what to do.

The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one.

Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I'll be honest, I have no problem with her never going to see Dad. She decided all this at least in conjunction with brother. It just rung alarm bells when the visits dropped off massively when it became apparent there was no money to be had.

I'm not going to keep replying after this. I'm not sure if you're hearing what people are saying and this part 2 topic really doesn't need to be 5 pages of this back and forth. I hope you are hearing some of this, deep down though. For the sake of your wife and children, I hope you can hear what we are pointing out.

I know this stuff is terribly difficult. I grew up in a weird double narc parent, alcoholic, abusive, silent treatment, rage type house. I am trying to sort myself out from all the crap from my childhood and beyond. So I reply with understanding and compassion for you.

When I finally started coming Out of the FOG it's because I began getting angry at my Mom's shitty, ridiculous treatment of me, my dh and children. In my head, I had such rage against her. P123, we are adults for crying out loud. We shouldn't be treated like naughty children who didn't do exactly what mommy or in your case, daddy wanted us to do. How dare they still do this to us? Who the actual F**k does she think she is to treat me this way? I'm the only one who makes an effort to see her and I don't even want to. I have a lot of anger built up against her and it helps me be strong and to change how I react to her waify, sad little problems.

Do you have internal anger toward your dad's bad treatment of you and your family? Maybe you should. It's very helpful and the anger is directed at the person it should be going to. Your Dad. Not your brother or his wife. All this back and forth about brother and SIL is masking where the focus should be, your dad. Focus on untangling yourself from him. You can block your brother and SIL, again or get angry at him and tell him to NEVER contact you about this crap again. Get angry and stand up against his manipulations. Stand up for you, your wife and children. I have no idea what goes on in your day to day life but I hope you can fully disengage from the drama of the dirty 3 to focus on having the best life with your FOC. Stop using your wife and children as excuses you give to your dad. It's ok if the change and anger comes from you. Protect you and them from him.

The way I see it, getting angry and feeling like a fully grown adult helped me get determination to handle the process. My anger isn't loud and rage filled, it's quiet, strong and determined. I've always been the nice, meek, smiley little child who didn't cause problems. That's how my mom walked all over me. I repeat this to myself now, "I'm a fully grown adult and I'm not taking your mean, waify, angry treatment anymore" (actually I use much more colorful and forceful language in my head) It helps me keep my priorities straight when I start falling back into the good little girl mode.

I see that you've posted much of the same things in the Dads, Sibling, Elderly forum areas to get more input. I think all the detail about grocery shopping, taxis, pub, music festivals, SIL carer, wife at work and more are clouding the main problem. Your dad and how you deal with him.

And your last sentence above about your SIL visits dropping off after she discovered there isn't money to be had, this may not be the case at all! Do you know this for sure or are you assuming? Did brother or SIL tell you this directly? She may have gotten a good clear look at how your dad manipulates people and decided to forget the whole mess. Maybe she finally got angry and put her foot down.

Yeh thanks. Make sense.....

Not quite sure why continuing threads is a problem though. Not as if its costs anyone any money (does it?) and no-one if forced to read but fair enough.


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PeanutButter

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Re: Xmas is coming - part 2
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2019, 12:42:33 PM »
123 you said:  "The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one."
But you lie to your dad. (You say you CANT tell him the truth) But you let your dad down when you dont do what he wants!
 IME that is no different.
You said:  "Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him."
It is his money! If he is getting what he wants what is wrong with him spending the money? But thats irrelevant IMO since this was NOT your now SIL that did this!
You said:  "Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him."
IMO NONE of that makes SIL "thick" by any stretch of the imagination! She did nothing wrong by your own recounting of the events. But YOU are blaming HER for your father being like a toddler throwing a tantrum at you. TEXTBOOK triangulation and flying monkey scenario and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. Its your father who is responsible for his own upset. He is responsible for saying now he needs a carer. Your SIL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! Nor is she responsible for the ''things made worse" for you. You are responsible for you putting up with your fathers worst. It is your choice to be enmeshed with him. IMO.
Yeh OK you're right..... Im beginning to realise the triangulation thing. Im washing my hands now and taking a step back.
There is a lot more to the story to be honest. As others have said, I cant change my Dad, my brother, or my SIL. They can all carry on now as far as I'm concerned - Im not interested in the dramas.
Maybe my problem is that I care too much about what happens with my Dad. This is stopping now.
Maybe, just maybe, and I dont know this but I am guessing based on all of what you say and IME, your 'care to much what happens with dad' is actually acted out towards others involved by 'trying to control them, their reactions, and their behavior', in an attempt to lower your anxiety that is rooted in the enmeshment with your dad and probably some false beliefs that you are responsible for your dad and alll that is to do with your dad. Maybe if you believe this then you also falsely believe that your brother is responsible for your dad. It sounds like your brother has this same false belief that he and you are responsible for your dad. The origin of this false belief that you both have is ..... wait for it.... YOUR DAD! He TRAINED you!
He is the one causing ALL of the crap you describe to us here on this forum. Your brother and sil are also dealing with your dads crap. Even if all of you were enabling dads narccississtic abuse, they can choose to stop even if you choose to continue. I think IME if you are not ready to 'drop the rope' that is ok. IMO accept that about yourself. IMO also accept that brother and sil may choose how much they can/want to do and how much contact they can/want to expose themselves to. My advice to all of you would be to limit contact and set boundaries.