I'm not sure if I'm in the right place...

[eclecticmom]

and I'm sort of afraid to post.  I'm not sure I'm in the right place because while my experience sounds similar to many of the stories and traits I've been reading about, it's not quite on the same level.  The relationship is definitely unhealthy and has always been unhealthy, but not quite abusive, or only mildly so in a few specific ways (verbal, emotional, psychological).  I'm not sure there's even such a thing as mild abuse.  I'm not some innocent, healthy person, either.  I've had two counselors agree I'm codependent, but there have also been questions from childhood; I don't know what's "wrong" with me, but something is.  However, there have been some key spousal behaviors and moments in this relationship that are not my fault and which indicate it's unhealthy and I don't need to be in it.  But ultimately, I'm not sure how to tell who's who in this relationship, or maybe we both have a PD, or maybe neither of us does and I'm overreacting.

I'm afraid to post because I'm afraid of being vulnerable and hurt--and exposed somehow (like people are waiting to say, "Aha!  We knew there was something wrong with you!"), but I'm also afraid my spouse will somehow find this forum, figure out I'm posting about our "stuff," and somehow use it against me.  We're in the middle of a divorce, so that makes everything a lot more sensitive.   There are kids involved, as well.  So far, they have no idea any of the discord has been going on.  There was almost complete parental uninvolvement on my spouse's part (partially my fault), and I made sure any disturbances were kept quiet.

So anyway...hello and thanks for letting me be here.   

[NumbLotus]

Welcome!

You say you recognize some of the traits discussed here? Then you belong here.  There is no requirement that the issues you discuss involve a person with a full blown PD, or that they exceed a certain "level."

There is not a requirement of perfection from you either (or this forum would be tumbleweeds), just an interest in working on the issues at whatever level works for you.

If you suspect you may have some PD traits yourself, you would not be alone here. PD traits are common, and they run in families. This forum is a supportive place for us to work on ourselves, whether we have PD traits or not.

If you read around for a while, you may feel more comfortable seeing that the forum is very supportive. You can always share your story in very vague and general terms if you like. Or you can just read, or you can just add your comments to other people's questions without sharing any more about yourself than you like.

It is important to ensure your spouse does not see your activity here, so if you share a device you should use incognito mode, or if you are posting from your phone, ensure that he is not going to access it. But he is extremely unlikely to find your posts just by searching on the Internet or stumbling across it on his own.

[Whatthehey]

Welcome!

Years ago when I first started to wonder what was up with my marriage, I joined this forum under some now forgotten username.  I was searching for answers but not ready to hear it.  I thought it might be my depressions, codependency or something else.

The bottom line is that it took time.  Now, I look back and can quite clearly see all the issues.  At that time, I couldn't clearly say if my x was OCPD.  But now, after begging and pleading and bribing him to go to therapy, he was diagnosed.

Of course the diagnosis came after I left the marriage.  I wouldn't have said that he would ever physically abuse me - all the other yes - but the fist flying by my face and hitting the wall was enough to convince me it was time.  And the reinforcement from my therapist that he was emotionally abusive helped.

The point is - we all progress at our own pace.  Sometimes we halt and stumble and then start again.  The nice part of this forum is that it it really supportive.  I can honestly say this forum has saved my life.

[Penny Lane]

Hi eclecticmom,
You are in the right place!



I hope you browse around the forums and look at the toolbox and resources, but I particularly want to draw your attention to the 50% rule.

The 50% Rule says that we are responsible for 50% of the things that happen in any relationship we share with a person who suffers from a personality disorder.

That is not to say that we are responsible for anyone else's behavior, words or actions. We didn't cause the personality disorders in our loved ones, their behavior or their destructive tendencies. Those are caused by a combination of their own mental illness and their own poor choices.

But in all our relationships, we are responsible for 50% of what happens. We're responsible for our own choices, our own behaviors, our own words and our own actions.

A divorce is going to take up all your time and attention for awhile. But eventually, I hope, the absence of the abuse ("mild" abuse is still abuse, it's still harmful) and the destructive behaviors and all that comes with it - then you can focus on healing. You'll figure out who you are outside of the relationship. And you might have to learn new, healthier relationship patterns. But you'll have the space in your life to do that work.

I'm glad you're here and I look forward to hearing more of your story. I hope this forum will be a source of advice and support as you need it during this tough process.

[Starboard Song]

I add my welcome, too!

So many people here get it. And really, personality disorders aren't a binary thing you either have or don't: there are different intensities. And you can learn tactics for management and healing here that help with all your interpersonal relations.

Please do be aware that we are specifically here to discuss the stress and challenges caused by the personality disorders of others. While some forum members often struggle with some PD characteristics or full-blown PDs, the challenge of managing our own personality disorders is not a topic we address here.

Welcome, and I wish you so much strength.

[eclecticmom]

Thank you both.  My fear of "people" isn't directed at the forums members; please be assured of that.  It's a vague fear, and the "people" aren't defined.  It's not logical and most people wouldn't act like that.  I know this, but knowing it doesn't make it go away, unfortunately.  But I will browse; I can already tell it's a supportive place.  He has moved out; some of my anxiety is "what if my devices are hacked?" type thoughts I kind of have to ignore, but they're there.  "What can be used against me?" is the ever-present question.

When I say I'm not sure about about me, it's things like self-consciousness vs. narcissism.  I've been highly self-conscious for my whole life...is that narcissistic?  What's the difference?  It's like I want a ratio or something.  Or I struggled with anger and emotional regulation for a good chunk of my earlier life, but it's not as much of a struggle anymore, and when it is, it manifests differently.  I don't fly into fits like when I was younger; I "clamp down" on myself and fume to myself until it passes, so I don't say anything I'd regret.  It took too long to get to that point, though.  I went from emotional disregulation to emotional repression and am just now trying to find the middle.  Things like that.  I don't know where on any of these spectra that puts me.  I am definitely codependent, but I don't know if that's all if it's just a piece of the puzzle.  I'm working my way out of that one.

For him, alienation looks like putting my friends down, "forgetting" my friends exist, insisting I end a several year pre-existing friendship with a guy because "men and women can't be friends," and telling me not to contact people who didn't act "right" toward me.  I know he doesn't really respect my dad, but has never put him down, my mom it's back and forth--pitying-type insults mixed with "I like your mom."  Criticism might look like "You're not <fill in the blank> enough," not raging verbal beatdowns.  So I don't know if that stuff counts or not.  Verbal abuse looks like "joking" insults like fat and stupid.  I've always felt stupid, but I guess I'm not.  I'm not fat, but have always had poor body image, but at least the fat one I could laugh off for a while.  But after having kids it started hurting more.  That's what I mean; it's all "mild" or subtle, and I think it's reasonable to wonder if it's a error in interpretation on my part.  I guess the big red flag is how he's habitually responded when confronted with negative feedback from these behaviors.  It's not to sincerely apologize and stop the behavior immediately and for good, it's to blameshift, belittle, and continue.  Or if he does eventually stop, the fact that he "can't" do that anymore is now a weapon (i.e. "Oh I forgot, we can't joke in this house anymore.").  One time I pointedly told him, "It's almost like you need to figure out what I actually think is funny."  That was a huge slap in the face for him, and he had a bit of a breakdown.  Insults and sex jokes don't really do it for me.  He can be funny in other ways, and is with other people.  I do have a sense of humor, but it's not typical, I don't think.  Irony is more my thing.

Whatthehey, I'm so sorry you went through that, but it's great you've got a therapist on your side.  Mine helped me personally (I was having a nervous breakdown when I finally called for counseling), but hasn't really confirmed or denied my suspicions.  I'm not sure if it's because I'm supposed to build my own confidence so I don't need to hear that from the counselor or what.  idk.  They tried to steer me toward staying (we share the same religious worldview).  I didn't prove tractable.   

I've read The Verbally Abusive Relationship, Difficult Conversations, and Boundaries, as well as watched a whole lot of Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Dr. Les Carter.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi and welcome,

I just wanted to reply about your question of the difference between narcissism and self consciousness.

The main trait in narcissism is lack of empathy. Empathy is something most of us feel, and then express to varying degrees, depending on the situation and our mood etc.

Read up on love bombing and you will see that survivors of narc abuse report that during the love bomb phase, there were red flags (that the narc was not empathetic towards them or others), but at the time, it was easy to dismiss.

I just listened to a podcast about how personalities with charisma are good at bait and switch. When they insult us, they make it seem like they are joking around, but people with empathy don't have to insult just to make a joke.

You mentioned irony. I noticed that my PD parent had very little ability to understand irony. It became a secret way for us family members to communicate when she was in the room because she wouldn't get the joke. I think others have talked about that here too at times.

Over time, the lack of empathy from someone in our life would, all things being equal, tend to result in us distancing ourselves from them, unless a trauma bond has formed.

Being self conscious is a way of saying that we are anxious about some parts of our selves.

The reason a lot of people in relationships with NPDs question themselves is because the NPD has projected onto them and exploited their (natural) ability to be self aware.

Narcs target people with empathy. Because we are easy targets for them. We want to believe in the good in people. They target that over and over as we are bonding to them. We might be so young that we have few if any defenses against this targeted attack on our empathy .

Then as adults we are suspicious of people. Things will come back to haunt us. Thats the result of narcissism in a close relationship. It's a defense against being targeted ever again. Mine is going away, with therapuetic work and effort to ensure I understand the needs that narcs exploit.

From what I've read here, therapists don't often diagnose people in our lives as PD. So if you are hoping for that, maybe ask the counsellor directly, about if they make diagnoses.

It sounds like they want you to focus on your stuff and how you will keep recovering from the abuse. Over time you will see that what you now call self conscious is maybe a lot of fear and worry that you carried, to keep the relationship with him going? This isn't your fault. Without knowing it, many of us bond to narcissistic people during our life. I was born to a person with uNPD. It happens , its awful, and unbonding to them frees us to live our life .

The unbonding takes time and it is totally worth it.

Children in homes with a NPD parent usually learn to hide their vulnerable feelings. As a parent its so good that you are working with yourself to heal.

[Whatthehey]

Eclecticmom - I think you just described me and my marriage.  My T explained that my reactions are normal in the face of what I experienced - that subtle manipulation and digs.  Over time they dealt a real toll on me physically.  Now that I am out of the marriage - I have never felt stronger emotionally or physically.

Give yourself time.  Forgive yourself.  Rest and know that we got your back!

[eclecticmom]

Thank you, again.  My self consciousness has been with me from childhood.  I'm not bothering with what to make of that right now.  I'm just trying to get over it.   

I've noticed my kids do hide their emotions, or can't name them.  But I'm the one that's done all the parenting, because he was uninvolved, yet want to be the "muscle" in disciplinary situations.  I didn't want pretty much their only experience of  him to be him spanking or lecturing them, so I've basically single parented this whole time.  My younger two don't seem to be able to recognize and express their emotions and it's all just anger.  My oldest can recognize and express, but will repress and will also mask with anger, it's just more sullen/sarcastic.  That's just here at home; out with others, they're great and get along with all ages.  We did very little as an entire family.
They have no idea my husband treated me the way he did; I made sure their existence wasn't disturbed by all the parent stuff (audio to loud, rants, etc.).  And I don't want to point it out now, for several reasons.  So anyway, I think it's me to blame there.  Though someone once said they act as children do when the father is absent, so...   

Now that he's moved out, he texts with my oldest almost daily.  I don't know what, as checking would be a huge breach of privacy.  But it concerns me...my oldest initiated the texting, but at this point, the last 2 1/2 weeks have far exceeded the communication they had in all the kids' years combined.  He never even asked them how their day was when he was here.  I'm afraid if I check or make any concerned comments or even facial expressions, I could be accused of parental alienation.  So I simply set the phone limits I normally would and say that communication with him is included in that.

[eclecticmom]

I think that's all I'm going to elucidate for now, because the forum is still viewable by the public and I don't want to jeopardize anything with the divorce.  So if I don't respond, that's why.  Thanks so much for the warm welcome!

[Starboard Song]

^ Thanks for being aware of that. Take care of yourself and we'll be here.

[NumbLotus]

You might also want to look into CPTSD as a possibie factor.

[bgirl12]

You are doing the right thing by getting support and learning. It takes time. You may not feel like you have a lot of time, but you can grow and change some things. Some things you cannot change and that is what you also want to learn.
I think it is very common for us to have emotional and behavioral issues after what we have been through. We also become reactive to the PD in our life, and that is where I have had most of my issues. Even if you were PD, which I doubt, you deserve help and support no matter. I also am not sure what a diagnosis would do for some of us anyways. We all have had anxiety and depression, sleepless nights, had it affect our work and other relationships.
If it is not related to your relationship, then you would have a history, or you would perhaps continue on in such a way after the relationship? Not getting along with someone doesn't make you PD either. I am not qualified by any means. But you sound like you want to do what you can for yourself and I encourage you here. We doubt ourselves a lot when we have been abused, treated poorly, had our self esteem trampled on, and divorce is soul crushing even when it seems best and I feel for you. Be good to yourself.