THE LIST

[CakeManUK]

Hi everyone

All NPD parents are at various places along the spectrum and I wonder where in the range mine is. Sometimes its hard to see the big picture and you find yourself questioning if its really happening and how bad. I decided it'd help if I made a summary list of the slights/digs/behaviours as far as I can, to help me see it in one place. I'll probably have to edit this as more come back to me. Maybe you'd like to add your own lists, it'd be interesting to compare notes.

Here goes... in no particular order

Always being introduced as the unplanned child
Telling everyone I'm a worrier
Being reminded, as a child, that I was a weak baby and inference a weak child
Comparison to friends/neighbours children
what would her friends/neighbours think
What would her brother think
My first day of uni, "you won't join any of these gay clubs will you?"
Monologues not conversations
My W wearing red shoes
My W coming from London, those funny London people
My W's father being a lorry driver
My W coming from a terraced house
My W coming from a council house
My W not being christened
Not putting my W 'inner city' birthplace onto the family tree research hobby
Wedding expectations (our wedding)
Upset that her desired person was not our bridesmaid
Wedding food choice
Only memory of our wedding was it was cold
Our choice of honeymoon
Checking our oven cleanliness
Reminding my W of every anniversary of her fathers death
If we have difficulty with others, first question is what did we do
Lecture W on contributing to marriage
Lecture W on running a home
No empathy for W difficult pregnancy, all in your head
Comments about our son being born very early
Saying she didn't like our sons name, repeatedly
Not using our sons name for first six months, nickname instead
Present giving competition outdoing ours to our son
Terrible gift giving to us, not knowing us
Choosing most minimum bland food if out at dinner with us
Changing subject halfway through my news
Glowing reports of brother/grandchildren/time spent with them
Being the news/communication controller
Sending passive dad to anger management
Commenting on me having a stock of alcoholic drink
At/during dad's death, sad that retirement time hadn't been happier because of him
Saying more upset about brothers divorce than dads cancer death
My W not included in the first draft of Dad's funeral eulogy
Me being described as the third extra surprise child in my Dad's funeral eulogy
Major upset when finally gently told of our hurt and discomfort due to her comments criticism opinions, how could I be so horrible
Giving W flowers with a written non-apology note, "l'm sorry for whatever you think I said".
Saying she'll sort it out one day when she finds out what she's meant to have done wrong
Hijacking MILs holiday
Saying we are always negative, too sensitive, fussy
Saying I don't visit enough, but excuses for brother 'so busy'

So basically that's my list, for now. What's yours?

[appaloosa]

Sheesh. I don't have the energy to write my list at the moment, but that is a LOONG list. None of it good. : (

[needfixing]

Hello,

I am wondering about red shoes. I have probably half a dozen, maybe more.  Is wearing red shoes odd?

[Duck]

How dare W come from a terraced house. So scandalous.

[doglady]

I feel like we have the same mother, cakeman!
It's uncanny.

[footprint]

Hi CakeManUK,

Based on what I've read about people with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), your mother is pretty far on the spectrum and seems to me like full-blown NPD, though I can't diagnose.

Are you reading any literature on narcissistic parents and how they treat their children? Many of the behaviors you list are in line with the literature on NPD.

footprint

[appaloosa]

Hello,

I am wondering about red shoes. I have probably half a dozen, maybe more.  Is wearing red shoes odd?

I think his mother was criticizing his W because W wore red shoes. In addition to coming from a terraced house. (eye roll)

[CakeManUK]

Appaloosa
Yes its long, but spread over about 35 years.

Needfixing
My W (girlfriend at the time) had red shoes one day. Nothing was said but M stared intently and disapprovingly at them. I  *think* way back in the uk, some people regarded the wearing of red shoes as a sign the owner was touting for 'business'. Either that or its just disapproval - wearing bright red lipstick or a short skirt would have got the same reaction, according to M's 'standards'.

Footprint
Yes, the more I read, the more clicks into place. I suddenly go "Oh that's what that was"! Sometimes when not reading or even thinking about it, those jigsaw pieces land.

Now come on, I need your lists!

[SparkStillLit]

I'll make one after I finish giggling about the SCANDALOUS red shoes!!!! I have several pair, one is stilettos, maybe W could borrow those and really send your M into the heliopause??
Ok here goes: (tee hee snicker)

Always asking what I'm doing.  The correct answers are: baking, cooking, or cleaning. Any other answers not related to housekeeping/homemaking of some sort are met with major disapproval.

Snarkily asking how/what H is doing, if working, or if "keeping busy".

Making up job titles for me whenever she feels that mine aren't sufficiently fancy (they never are). She tells her friends and associates these made up titles.

Meddling through my house whenever she comes over, reads cards, notices, anything she can find.

Mines the kids for info. This is harder to do now that they are older (19 & 15)

Makes nasty digs about our employment/financial status/how we spend money/on what.

Says we never smile, never go anywhere, never have any fun, never do anything with the kids. (Gee, but we make a point to pay bills n shit first, crazy, I know. And that's a lie about the kids. Well, all of it is. We just don't do what SHE wants us to do.)

Bitches about our animals and what we choose to have and how we choose to keep them.

Bitches about our parenting and what we do and do not do w/ kids. Constantly trying to guilt into/play the kids into doing stuff she wants us to do. Again, this is more difficult with older kids, but NOT impossible.

I'm sure this list goes on forever, but that's all I can think of.
I jumped out of the frying pan (FOO) into the fire (FOC). Sizzle, sizzle.

[Hazy111]

Thats a Borderline Queen i reckon, dont know what others think. Image/status is everything. Control through shame and guilt.  "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson should be an eye opener.

[awarealivesurvivor]

My list is not complete.  I have jotted down a few though.  I might add some later when they come to me. 

Always introduced as the baby of the family

Tells everyone that I'm bi-polar.  That wouldn't bother me if I was actually bi-polar

Makes a bee-line to anyone I make an acquaintance with (I'm very careful who I make acquaintances with).  First thing out of her mouth to the new acquaintance is "Don't tell K. that I contacted you".  Then smear campaign starts.

Ignored me in a group.  In groups, she had to make sure people were aware she is in the room by her very loud laughter.

When I was alone with her (I'm NC now), it was best to keep conversation on safe topics.  To talk about the past, only invited hearing her own re-configuring of the past.  She completely changed history to the way she wants people to see things, esp. about me.  It was difficult to even have a conversation with her about anything.

She threw hissy-fit any time that I stood up for myself, and she acted like I had a problem when I tried to set any boundaries with her.

Didn't give support any time I would tell her how I was setting healthy boundaries with others.  This would really upset her and she would, once again, act like there was something wrong with me and never the other person.

When I was still in unhealthy, dangerous marriage, she would exclaim "What did you do?" with a tone that it was my fault, anytime my husband hit me.

In all the years that I was growing up, she had 3 large closet-full of nice clothing at all times, while all her children made do with old clothing that people  brought to our home.  Very humiliating in a small town where all the kids could recognize their own old clothing.  It was awful.  Weird thing was I never contemplated the obvious, that m. had new, nice clothing while her children were lucky to get one pair of new shoes each school year.  (I remember one year she bought me a too small pair and I had to wear those the whole year.  I wound up with in-grown toe nails that I suffered from for years after that.)

Constant spread of disinformation behind my back designed to keep people from friending me.  This I found out she spent a major amount of time and focus on.  It feels like her life's goal, in fact.

That's the end of my list.  I agree with another member that your list shows that your m. is on the high end of the scale.  (I believe my nm is too).  Your list gave me chills, in fact.

[SparkStillLit]

Oh gosh, I forgot on my list the most obnoxious part:
All support and admiration goes to my bro. My alcoholic not job holding down not keeping it together multiple DUI, jail stints, never paid child support, nephew now going down same bad road, brother.
THAT guy. She tells glowing stories about how much money he's making (oh yeah? Well no one in the family that he owes zillions has seen a red cent) and how successful he is (oh? Then why is he crashing in your spare bedroom again?), etc ETC AD NAUSEAM all the while taking digs at us.
Everyone else in family is either NC or VLC with bro. He never talks to us but to ask for money, and we've all learned hard lessons there, ages ago. M pushes and pushes everyone to establish contact, and fabricates these little stories where we have warm relations, but it's not true.

[JingleBells]

Ok:

Friends are assessed on suitability based on parent's jobs and location of home.

Friends from a non-suitable home are pooh pooed  and dismissed or scorn poured upon when referred to.

If unsuitable friends dared to 'call for' SG child at Tea Time, a bollocking of unsuitable friend, referencing a violation of etiquette) would ensue on doorstep along with a firm semi-slam of front door. 

SG's bedroom to be thorougly searched daily for evidence of drug-taking, smoking, sexual activity, affairs with married men, incomplete homework etc. Child to be challenged vociferously upon triumphant production of evidence, citing *cleaning* as reason for search.

All potential husbands must be a) upper middle class, privately educated with good breeding or/

Of good financial standing and utterly sycophantic to Mothership.

ON NO ACCOUNTS must potential husband have mind of his own and call mother 'pet'; this is deeply disrespectful and offensive.

Prospective partner MUST NOT utilise poor grammar.

TBC....

[CakeManUK]

I am loving these lists, in a horrified way.

They are making me feel less crazy and giving me some confidence that my own assessment of what is happening really is what is happening. The trouble with PD is that you are left questioning yourself. The penalty you imposed of LC or NC is a terrible one and if unsure, FOG will eat you up. I am amazed by how the common themes and behaviours align with textbooks and web resources on the subject, but also by the variety of methods, angles, levers used - quite ingenious really.

Keep those lists coming!

[p123]

 a lot of this list rings true with my Dad. I see a lot concern your W. Dad does this too. He seems to have some very strange views on how a wife should behave (Lets just say I know why hes been divored twice)

- Always asks where she is. If shes doing something like playing Netball he tuts.
- Tell me to ask her to do his laundry (too bone ideal to buy a washing machine)
- Tells me to tell her to tell her employer shes not working over xmas because hes coming up (shes a district nurse and no you're not coming up!)
- Went nuts when wife didnt phone him specially on his birthday. (shes never done this)
- Says its her fault that we had another kid late in life (ha ha nope I played a small part here!)
- Says she spends too much money (mind your own business)


The list goes on. Mrs can't stand him and I can see why but he doesnt think hes done a thing wrong.

[samtosha]

Oh wow. Here is a partial list, because I don't even think I can remember all of them (some of this is uPDM and some if it is uPDF and some is both):

When someone did something bad to me, asking me what I did to cause it
Counseling me never to try something I might fail at, and discouraging risk taking
Interfering with relationships if she didn't like the person, telling them I didn't want to speak to them if they called, etc.
Disdaining my taste as a child and not letting me dress as "girly" as I wanted to
Criticizing my anger as a teenager
Telling me repeatedly she disliked my first husband, yet pushing me to get married because who else would have me?
Telling my then-fiance "she's your problem now".
Taking over wedding planning for my first wedding and when I disagreed with her choices, telling me I have no taste
Disliking my chosen name for my son and declaring she was going to call him a completely different name
Insisting on being the only grandmother (of 3) to be called "grandma". The others had to have their name attached ("Grandma Sue").
Hassling me to have kids and then to move closer to them when my kids were small but then literally ignoring them for their entire lives.
Dismissing my kids from the room if they made noise.
Being upset that my baby son hit his head on a precious piece of furniture, asking if the table is OK, as he's bleeding/screaming
Freaking out if my small children dropped food, like individual peas, on their WHITE carpet
Taking hapless guests on a "tour" of their art collection, complete with tedious lectures on the "meanings" of the various pieces
Generally lording their intellectual superiority and better taste over everyone
Being personally offended by differing taste/choices, even in small things
Saying, often, literally, "I see you as an extension of myself" 
Saying often how like her I am, "you get that from me" 
Criticizing my hair, makeup, clothes, body, as a teenager
Criticizing all boys/men I chose to date/marry
Criticizing my kids, house, decoration, housekeeping, ad infinitum
Failing to understand my dissatisfaction with my "fancy" career and never understanding who I really am - saying often they expected me to be a Supreme Court Justice when I hated law from the get go.
Humiliating me in front of others with critical remarks about my appearance
Fighting like demons with each other in front of others and refusing to acknowledge anyone's feelings about it
Finally liking my current husband and suddenly changing her tune and being nice because I've done something she approves of.
Pumping me for information about my adult kids so that she can criticize and also brag to her friends, when she has no relationship with them.
Being jealous when I spend time with others in the family without her, worrying we were talking about her (we are, tbh)
Smear campaigns against me (telling my bro "I don't HAVE a daughter" now that I've gone VLC).

Yeeeaaahh. Like you, I don't always believe that they're THAT bad. Writing it out  - and there's lots more I could add - is an interesting exercise. What do you all think?

[samtosha]

Oh, I have more:

Bringing up embarrassing things I did 40 years ago in front of others ("remember that terrible blush you wore in junior high? Remember that awful boyfriend you had when you were 15? OH, what was that BABY BLUE EYESHADOW about? Teehee"). I am not kidding about this.
Assaulting things they don't understand, even/especially when they're positive changes ("yoga is a CULT", "what do you mean you aren't DRINKING?")
Asking if my daughter's recent breakup "was her idea" (not her business, and what is she doing, implying she got dumped?).
Rolling her eyes when I say my kids were delightful when they were little (they were! She just never cared to interact with them)
Failing to understand my first husband, who she hated, was the only reason I spent as much time with them as I did, as he was also sort of NPD-ish and very "family" oriented. Conversely, failing to understand my now-husband, who she loves, is the reason I'm VLC with them now, because he understands and supports me!

[wingspan]

I'm just "getting over" another bout of severe hoover-itis. I have gone over the items in my list so many times in my head, and then promptly fall back into the fog... maybe writing this out here will help to make it more real (and protect it from my excellent skills of avoiding and tolerating cognitive dissonance going forward):

[this list is in no particular order, just free-writing here...]

- telling me that she doesn't like babies, with a smile on her face
- at the train station (in public, not at home) on the way for a family hike, telling me that my sweater is covering up my shorts, and that I look like I'm not wearing pants and then giving me a face of utter disgust
- i have not one memory of her holding me or proving any sort of physical comfort
- after my younger sister "successfully" sells rocks to neighbours (she's about 6yrs old, of course people are going to respond to her little booth), telling me that I'm not good with money
- sending me (~12yrs) to get an assortment of toothbrushes (for a creative gift idea), and then reacting with exasperation and ridicule when I spend "too much" money on the supplies: again, I'm not good with money (there is never any follow-up to teach me any financial skills)
- telling me repeatedly that I'm hysteric when I show any sort of "uncontrolled" emotions
- as a teenager telling me point blank that the reason why I'm struggling is that I don't have any self-confidence, in a tone that insinuates that this is my own fault
- repeatedly responding with "are you sure?" / "really?" when I provide an answer to her asking what I want, to the point that I'm unable to say what I want
- ridiculing me for "not knowing what I want"
- after my father dies in an accident (I was 17, my sister 13), not sharing any of the condolence cards and letters sent to "us" unless they were explicitly addressed to me and/or my sister
- never speaking about my father again, or sharing any information about the ongoing court case
- blaming me for not providing any support to her after my father died
- "acknowledging" that we were never close - like it's the same as both agreeing that grass is green -, but not showing any empathy over how this might have been difficult for me growing up and instead pointing out that she got along with my sister (so she couldn't have been the problem)
- telling me at various points how much she likes some of my friends from my childhood, and that they have a special connection (unlike she and I)
- I felt utterly lonely as a child and through my teenage years. At some point, when I was about 12 yrs, I shared some of these feelings with my one of my gf with whom I had this fun pen-palship, even though we were in the same city at the time and also spent time together hanging out. My friend was upset reading how I felt and shared her concerns with her mom. Her mom, like any normal adult, went to my mother to alert her. My mother then tore a strip off of me, and how dare I make her look bad in front of others. There was never any follow-up on the content of my letter.
- My father died while we were on vacation abroad and so we had to notify family. My mother shoved the phone in front of me and said, call your god-mother (her sister). I was 17 and in shock, and asked, what should I say? She just looked at me. I dialed the number, and my god-mother picked up. I stumbled out the words "dad died" - before she could respond, my mother took the phone out of my hand and from there on I was not involved in any way in the handling of the passing of my dad.
- Repeated silent treatments
- Ongoing triangulation between her, my sister and I
- Not providing any information about how to use sanitary products, when I was finally able to tell her I got my period (I was hiding it for several months, it was too embarrassing), but simply telling me where her products are in the bathroom
- Leaving it to me to figure out that her products were not right for a teenager and leaving it to me to figure out how to use tampons (her reaction was disgust when I asked if I could buy some and "well, you need to know if you really want to use them")
- I broke up with my first boyfriend because I couldn't get myself to let my parents - i.e. my mother - find out; it was not save to feel joy and happiness around her
- Making my first serious boyfriend feel unwelcome in HER house, the entire time we dated (this was the motivator for me to move out)
- Re-purposing my old bedroom within days after I moved out, to let me know that I was gone
- Always, always handing out money and making generous gifts - insisting on continuing to give me money even now, as I somehow still need her financial support (I'm not good with money, remember)
- Trying to split me and my husband and when that didn't work, ignoring him for years (his name not included in Xmas cards, calling on my cell rather than our shared landline)
- telling me "oh, you're so smart" like it's something I should be embarrassed about (at least I'm smart, because I'm certainly not practical or good with money)
- after going to a medium (she was into esoterics for a while), coming proudly to me showing off the drawing that was given to her: it had two brown spots on it, one lighter and one darker spot. She tells me "guess what, these dark spots are you and your sister; she's the darker one (cue splitting) and you're the lighter one. It was really interesting, you should go too" - how the fuck do you respond to something like that?
- always asking what I did for my birthday, other events, and sadly nodding that I don't do much socially - and then letting me know that she has so many friends and that she really likes spending time with them, and oh well, not all of us can be like that (i.e. socially "successful").

A whole bunch of other shit, but those are the "highlights" that come to mind... and I need to take a break now before I get nauseous.

She is a successful, energetic, vibrant, creative, social woman - and I have always and my inner child continues to be completely terrified of her - I recall being stunned, speechless, when I realized as a teenager that other girls actually confided into their mothers and had close (trusting and loving) relationships with them.

[tob-ler-one]

Criticizing my anger as a teenager

One of the things I do remember about being a teen is that my mother particularly seemed to dislike when I expressed anger or frustration. She was allowed to do it, because it was her house and she was the adult, the perfectly wronged party in the Never Ending Divorce Story.

[samtosha]

Tob-ler-one, yes! Their anger was always appropriate. Mine would often be greeted with mock surprised faces and laughing (uPDF) or criticism of my "behavior " - when my anger was usually a reaction to something one of them said/did (see list, above). Grr!!