Demands to forgive and forget

[StayWithMe]

StayWithMe; Yes, I stated that I forgive them at the very start of our separation.

They attempted to use it as leverage toncorner me into allowing things to go back to 'things as usual' and began gaslighting to avoid having to take responsibility. From there they began flat out lying, smear campaigns  and became criminally threatening and began stalking and harassing me. My lawyer and I issued cease & desist orders and called the police when they tried to enter our guarded, gated community against clear orders.

We are now no contact for 2 years, and things couldn't be better.

did they try to use the fact that you forgave them as a reason for harassing you?

[TwentyTwenty]

StayWithMe; No they didn't. They claimed we never forgave them, since they didn't get the outcome of everything going back to the way they wanted.

In other words, if I forgave them, I wouldn't have any boundaries they disagree with, and the abuse should be able to continue as it had before. That's the demented world view of an abuser; forgiveness is a license to keep up the abuse.

[moglow]

Ahem, back to Sidney37 ...

I'm curious - did any of the flying monkeys contact you simply to wish you the joys of the season? Ask about your family, share their news, etc? To me that's always very telling, how quickly or if they can be diverted to good things or if they have an obvious agenda.

I was Facebook friends with a cousin who to my knowledge is the only extended family member who still excuses and tolerates mother's bs. This cousin and I never interacted on FB, not so much as a like or shared post. Mother doesn't Facebook, but she started making some very pointed comments about my life or activities that could only have come from FB posts. I finally just defriended and blocked this cousin and her daughter. before the week was out both had contacted me to ask why AND I got a snotty card from mommie dearest about it! Mother rode that drama for a while, but I noped out of it.

So my point, some are only in it for a purpose - if they're just carrying tales and in to for the drama, let em go. Don't think for a minute anyone has that right in your life!

[Sidney37]

Thanks all.  I took a bit of a break from reading and posting here to get through the holidays.  Somehow New Years, which I haven't spent with family in years, was even tougher than Thanksgiving or Christmas.   I guess it was the idea of starting a new year without contact with any of my family. 

No, the flying monkeys didn't wish any happy holidays.  Just questions about the NC.  My enF did manage to get some communication through routes that weren't yet blocked.  He, too, insisted that I forgive and forget because if I didn't it would affect his health.  I'm sure the stress of this is affecting his health, but he married an abusive partner who isn't capable of kindness or working things out. 

[FogDawg]

IMHO, a victim "forgiving and FORGETTING" is something that serves the perpetrator, not the victim. When a victim "forgets" what happened the perpetrator can go back to their internal state of denying that it ever happened. If the victim agrees to "forgive and forget" it also means they abdicate their right in the relationship to ever bring up the topic again and if they do the victim is then painted as the problem.

I am of the same opinion. When behaviors tend to repeat, it is unwise to completely overlook them. People quickly learn not to go near an aggressive dog, so why should it be any different with an abusive human being, even if related? I have been told more times than I can count that I need to let go of the past, get over it, most past it, blah blah. Personally, it is impossible for me to forget. Those overused sayings are absolute rubbish and hold no weight when it comes to situations such as those that members here have unfortunately experienced.

[GentleSoul]

Thank you for your comment about people learning to not go near an aggressive dog.  Helpful to me in reframing PD abuse I encounter.   

[Starboard Song]

I discourage blocking or even insulting such folks, or trying to persuade them by engaing in explanation. This is the thing that motivates me: we must never allow those who cannot reliably love us to come between us and all those wonderful people who do. So I really work to minimize collateral damage in the family. We have a couple people who've gone quiet, but nobody who has gotten angry, or whom we've had to shut down. I consider that a success.

If you have a true flying monkey, someone doing actual evil like lying to you or about you, or badgering you relentlessly and name-calling, or acting at the behest of a PD, that is a different matter. The heart of my message is that most of these comments aren't from FMs, but from salt-of-the-earth people who want the best for us and don't understand. We are 4 years NC, but five years ago we were in our 40s and were not yet NC. If it took us 4 decades and a crisis to go NC, I cannot rightly expect everyone we know to jump on board in sync with us.

I think most such questions are high-minded, loving questions, though they come from a place of ignorance. These folks have not walked in your shoes, or haven't done so yet. Forgiving and forgetting, acceptance of foibles and overlooking of even some serious grievances -- that's all some of the best things we humans do. It is how we all get along. NC is an entirely decent choice, but it is rightly rare. And like PDs, it is poorly understood by those who aren't there themselves.  So I encourage us to to take these truly painful inquiries and entreaties in the loving and decent spirit that most are intended.

Of course, we needn't engage or explain ourselves either. When someone has told me about how my DS is losing a grandparent, and "what will you do when they get old and need help?", or when they remind us of who raised my DW, I just say "Yes, you are right. [I always concede that they are right in some way.] It is very complex. I consider this the moral crisis of my life, and I take it very seriously. I don't expect everyone to understand our course, but I do hope they can respect me. Thank you for being so wonderful, and taking the time to share your advice. I appreciate it, and I do take it to heart."

[Sidney37]

Thank you for that Starboard Song.   I really appreciate your take on this.  It's kind and loving.  I love your bolded quote in the first paragraph.  I don't want my parents to come between me and people who do like me and support me.  Unfortunately no one is reaching out to ask me what is going on.  I just get texts and messages that I need to forgive and forget or that my parents look so upset because of what i have done to them.  It's painful.  I'm actually in a lower place than i was when I went NC.

I'm torn between VVLC and NC because I question if the NC is making things worse.  Can NC make things worse?  I tried VLC with enD and NC with PDm.  That didn't seem to work.  Right now I'm NC with both and not responding to anything.  A few means of written contact were left unblocked.  Now my parents are sending messages demanding that I forgive and forget and questioning if I will speak to them before they die.   

I'm a compassionate person.   I don't want to cause pain to anyone.  It seems that the NC causes them pain.    I don't know if I'm making the right decisions or making this worse.  I've had to leave the therapist I was seeing because she was a terrible fit.   She really seemed like a black and white thinker herself and was making me feel worse and more isolated.  So I'm left with people insisting I forgive and forget and no way to know if this is all worse because of me.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Unfortunately no one is reaching out to ask me what is going on.  I just get texts and messages that I need to forgive and forget or that my parents look so upset because of what i have done to them.  It's painful.  I'm actually in a lower place than i was when I went NC.

This tells me that you are dealing with actual flying monkeys, not simply ignorant but ultimately caring supportive people. I don't think this makes them EVIL, but certainly uninterested in your point of view. It doesn't really matter if they are doing it at the behest of your parents or all of their own accord. It's invalidating and upholding the abusive behavior, whatever the motivation.

And if they can see you doing something so drastic and not even ask themselves why it was so bad you felt the need to do such a thing, but instead feel entitled to tell you that you are just wrong, well bless their hearts. And no wonder you feel hurt. And if you're not going to explain, or engage, then what else is there to say on the subject? Either the relationship will move on independent of your NC, or they won't let it drop. I like what Starboard said he says to such people. (Once!)

The awful truth is many of us have lost everyone in our FOO after NC with parents, despite really trying to keep relationships with siblings, cousins, etc. If that does prove necessary for you too, that doesn't make you wrong or unkind or crazy.

If you do decide to go back to VVVLC in the future, that's a valid choice. But please do it for you, not because of lack of understanding or guilt from third parties. At this point it's likely to be interpreted as you still being able to be controlled and your parents may feel empowered by their "winning." Let the drama settle, take your time, grieve, take care of you. You're doing good!

[Starboard Song]

I'm a compassionate person.   I don't want to cause pain to anyone.  It seems that the NC causes them pain.    I don't know if I'm making the right decisions or making this worse.

I have a dear friend who is sweet and kind. But he killed three men in hand-to-hand combat in Afghanistan: stabbed them to death. He did exactly the right thing, given the choices he faced at those moments.

He caused pain, but it was exactly the right thing to do.

NC really is categorically different than any other level of contact. It absolutely can make things worse. That's why we all hope it is rare. It creates new issues and risks, and of course we all seek to avoid it: I wish we all could. But sometimes other alternatives are foreclosed. If your PD will not allow you to maintain boundaries, if a PD is abusive in a way that evades boundaries, if past events are simply too painful to allow ongoing contact (as, for instance, with sexual or physical abuse), then LC can become unacceptable. In our case, my MIL was insisting to us that she no longer wanted any relationship with us, and that her decision was permanent. She still wanted to visit with our DS, though, and for us to make nice at family gatherings, and for us to answer all her questions about christmas gifts and all our travel plans and such. That sort of weird, reverse VLC was a perpetual injury to both of us, and a relationship model we could not responsibly give to our son: responsible parents do not allow the bifurcation of their family into loved and unloved parts. So we went NC, causing her great pain and suffering, and taking a pair of grandparents away from our son. It was exactly the right thing to do.

If VLC has become unadministrable for any reasons like this, you are not the one causing pain.

I admire you having the heeby jeebies over NC: it is good for us to question ourselves, though our doubts can be painful. But you have a right to thrive. If VLC no longer can allow you to, you have a right to do what is necessary to create an environment in which you can. That environment may not be able to include some people, and that is not your fault.

So just remember, when you feel that guilt, my warrior friend. What would you tell him? Would you shame him or encourage him? How would you help him to accept that his actions were necessary and right because of his extraordinary situation? How does that apply to you? Because you too deserve to live.

Be good. Be strong.

[FogDawg]

Thank you for your comment about people learning to not go near an aggressive dog.  Helpful to me in reframing PD abuse I encounter.

I am glad that the analogy helped you, GentleSoul. It will take time. All the best to you.

And if they can see you doing something so drastic and not even ask themselves why it was so bad you felt the need to do such a thing, but instead feel entitled to tell you that you are just wrong, well bless their hearts. And no wonder you feel hurt.

Right. I do not know if it is being uncaring or they are just completely oblivious to anything that does not directly affect them, although it is certainly wrong. Their opinions and beliefs of you do not matter - only you do, Sidney37.