“Forgive and forget”

[Findingstrength729]

How do you approach this saying?  bPD person keeps saying this.   She apologized so therefore the past is forgotten.  Really the relationship has improved.   She's not super healthy to be around and have limited contact.   I am OK with that.  What I'm struggling is putting a boundary around this area of our relationship.   

So she vents to me about my brother not having contact with her.   I have gotten mad at my brother, but I understand his stance and respect it.   She always says she's done with his immature behavior, she puts off on him all these negative things.   She gets mad at me for setting boundaries.   For example she shares photos of my children on her Facebook so I stopped sending her pictures.   Anything I posted is Ammo to her to stir drama.  She gets jealous that my other relatives can see my Facebook.   I want to just tell her to shut the *f* up and listen to what we are telling her with our words and actions.  We can't forget, our subconscious can't forget.   We tolerate her with boundaries because we want to participate in social gatherings and not punish others (who she lives with, grandchildren).

But here is the kicker- I can't even tell her this.  I can't tell her that we were abused also.   That she wasn't the only one who suffered.   That we are left with deep emotional scars due to her choices.  The truth is always twisted in her favor, nobody is willing to call her bluff because "she's been doing so well and she's such a help to ...... relative."  Like- my cousins don't go to family gathers anymore because of my mom (and now their dad- her brother).  My grandpa has set limited and stepped back also   So it isn't *just* me.   None of it is every her fault.   EVER!   

I'm at a road block because I would like more of a relationship because if she can't even acknowledge the hurt, or that hurt even happened.   Is there even any hope for a relationship?   I don't really expect her to ever acknowledge that forgetting the past is impossible, especially if we are indirectly told we can't.   Or told straight out that abc never happened and we are liars.   

[PeanutButter]

Dr Phil McGraw always says "you cant change what you dont acknowledge"
IMO the relationship you have is the relationship you are going to get if you choose to continue the relationship with her.
How can she have apologised for something that she doesnt ackowledge happened?
If you choose to forgive her even without an apology tell her you will not forget.
"Forgive and forget" is used by abusers to keep their victims silent (no calling out their bad behavior) and submissive (allowing them to continue the abuse). IME

[Findingstrength729]

Dr Phil McGraw always says "you cant change what you dont acknowledge"
IMO the relationship you have is the relationship you are going to get if you choose to continue the relationship with her.
How can she have apologised for something that she doesnt ackowledge happened?
If you choose to forgive her even without an apology tell her you will not forget.
"Forgive and forget" is used by abusers to keep their victims silent (no calling out their bad behavior) and submissive (allowing them to continue the abuse). IME

Her apology was a lot of "poor me....I made bad choices I'm going to do better."   But no acknowledgment of those bad choices.   

I know deep down this is what it is.   I just don't the past to have power over me anymore.   And come to peace that this is life.

[moglow]

Her apology was a lot of "poor me....I made bad choices I'm going to do better."   But no acknowledgment of those bad choices.   

I know deep down this is what it is.   I just don't the past to have power over me anymore.   And come to peace that this is life.

I'm sorry this is your experience too - I could have written it myself, probably have in some form or another. Mine has also acknowledged "she didn't know any better" and other excuses, because thats exactly what they are. Excuses for her abysmal choices and behavior.

She doesn't have power over you, not unless you allow it. Having her acknowledge the harm she caused doesn't change the damage itself. She really is who she is, who she's chosen to be.

What I'd recommend for starters is that you cut off her complaints about your brother. Change the subject or tell her flat out that's between the two of them and that's where it should stay. I have a strange loyalty there myself - my brother and I discuss mother, commiserate and compare notes. I don't tell her what he says, wont ever. I refuse to give her that grace any longer.
But boundaries? Hold them, build them, protect them. Don't excuse or try to explain them, you do what's best for you and your family.

[PeanutButter]

Dr Phil McGraw always says "you cant change what you dont acknowledge"
IMO the relationship you have is the relationship you are going to get if you choose to continue the relationship with her.
How can she have apologised for something that she doesnt ackowledge happened?
If you choose to forgive her even without an apology tell her you will not forget.
"Forgive and forget" is used by abusers to keep their victims silent (no calling out their bad behavior) and submissive (allowing them to continue the abuse). IME

Her apology was a lot of "poor me....I made bad choices I'm going to do better."   But no acknowledgment of those bad choices.   
I know deep down this is what it is.   I just don't the past to have power over me anymore.   And come to peace that this is life.

I have read alot about apologies, remorse, repentance, and forgiveness. This was an area of my belief systems that needed examined IMO because ubpdM had very skewed beliefs about these subjects. IME what you describe does NOT constitute an apology.
My ubpdM wouldnt apologise to me either. She raged that I had the nerve to mention her 'smacking me in the face repeatedly while cursing me' after the 'way I and my sister had did her' and 'what we put her through when we were teenagers'. I ended up apologised to her. I was crying. It was not an accusatory confronting of her. I basically pleaded to her while sobbing asking her if she remember doing what she did. Then a long period of silent treatment followed to punish me. This was incredibly painful to me.
I, like you, am working on forgiving her. I was angry for a long time. Just recently I realized that some of the anger is subsiding.
And now I know that forgiveness is not a single act "Forgiveness is not an occasional act, it is a constant attitude." – Martin Luther King Jr.
So I am going to forgive her. This does not mean I will reconcile with her though. I probably wont ever allow her in my life again. I also will not ever forget. I will not practice holding onto the memories but I dont believe it is possible to 'forget' any part of your life.

[freedom77]

What is with our borderline personality disordered parents always accusing US of abuse? They portray us as HORRIBLE teenagers, when in fact, we lived in fear of them every.single.day. Why is it they always blame us, saying we are responsible for their reactions? And how DARE we ever EVER bring up the beatings, slappings, rages, scream outs....

[pipchick]

What is with our borderline personality disordered parents always accusing US of abuse? They portray us as HORRIBLE teenagers, when in fact, we lived in fear of them every.single.day. Why is it they always blame us, saying we are responsible for their reactions? And how DARE we ever EVER bring up the beatings, slappings, rages, scream outs....

I don't know, and I'm honestly not entirely sure whether my Mum is BPD or NPD, but in so far as the results go, the difference is probably negligible.

It seems to me that the crime they commit against us is that they continue to star in the movie of their lives, being the central character. While for us, we are relegated to become 'extras' in our own existence. That's the cold, hungry feeling we get. We want to be important... not to them. To ourselves. But it's like they've forever stolen our ability... our right to be so.

There's a lot in the rest of this thread about forgiving but not forgetting. Yes, I think that's right. We all know that forgiveness is as much for ourselves as for others. We should feel the anger, then let it go. But never forget. I know if I forget I will pay. It's all seeming to be about lulling me into a false sense of (never security) "well, maybe it's not as bad as all that" only for me to find that yes, it is as bad as all that, then I hate myself for for every forgetting. We forget because we want to. Because if we forget then we don't have to face the horrific truth. It's all right sometimes, I guess, as long as we keep returning to that truth until we can look at it head on and say: "That part is over."

[PeanutButter]

We all know that forgiveness is as much for ourselves as for others. We should feel the anger, then let it go. But never forget. I know if I forget I will pay. It's all seeming to be about lulling me into a false sense of (never security) "well, maybe it's not as bad as all that" only for me to find that yes, it is as bad as all that, then I hate myself for for every forgetting. We forget because we want to. Because if we forget then we don't have to face the horrific truth. It's all right sometimes, I guess, as long as we keep returning to that truth until we can look at it head on and say: "That part is over."

I also spent time during my early and mid twenty's going back and forth in and out of denial. I remember after my first flashback thinking: 'this cant be true' (it felt like I would die) it felt like I could only continue my life if it wasnt true. I forced myself to forget again.
Jerry Wise says we need to accept where we are (right now); if we are not ready yet, then we should accept that we are not ready (for a particular step in healing) and thats okay.

[Findingstrength729]

What is with our borderline personality disordered parents always accusing US of abuse? They portray us as HORRIBLE teenagers, when in fact, we lived in fear of them every.single.day. Why is it they always blame us, saying we are responsible for their reactions? And how DARE we ever EVER bring up the beatings, slappings, rages, scream outs....

Exactly.   I said abcd need to happen to have a relationship.   She did abcd, but it isn’t enough anymore.   I’m constantly battling do I open the wounds, open the can of worms, or just let well enough alone. 

I haven’t spoken to them in several days. So I gets the message “is everything ok between us?”   No, no it really isn’t.  Do I want to go there?  Or not?

ETA the response I want to say:
No, it really isn’t OK.   I know you believe in the concept of “forgive and forget”.  I can forgive, but I am human and my subconscious mind is incapable of forgetting the trauma and abuse that occurred.   I realize that due to circumstances you don’t recall exactly what happened. However, those traumas and abuses have made me the person I am today.  It is ingrained into my soul.  I drive through areas of town and have panic attacks and instantly feel unsafe.   It isn’t a conscious thing. The way I parent my children is in spite of our childhood, not because of the shinning example you left for us.  I realize you have turned over a new leaf and therefore am able to have some semblance of a relationship, but it is not easy.   My subconscious mind remembers it all, even if I consciously try to forget. 

It is really difficult for us (me and the boys) to put aside the past when we are expected for forget that the past happened.   Or that the actions were justified.  None of it was.   None of it.   Sometimes we need space to protect ourselves.  Because as much as we wish to forget, we can’t. 

[PeanutButter]

IME The other theme with these PD type parents are that they cant remember. None of it! Really? How convenient! It doesnt matter though. Like you said not only can we not forget but it shaped who we are today.
I want to say "im sorry that remembering how you raised me is something you want me to forget, especially since you forgot it as soon as it happened i guess, i realize it would be much better for YOU if I would forget but what about me and how i feel i want you to REMEMBER and be REMORSEFUL but we both are adults and i guess well just have to put our big girl pants on and get over not getting what we want"
Yes i think i want to respond to 'forgive and forget" with "remember and remorse" from now on!
Thanks to each of you on this thread for being here and sharing. I feel like we are kinda siblings in sorrow and we all have pdm.

[PeanutButter]

"When the BPD caregiver lashes out, he or she may later rewrite history and deny any wrong-doing in the first place. This is due to a psychological defense called "splitting," which causes people with BPD to see themselves and the world as either all good or all bad. Children must learn to adapt to their caregiver's use of splitting and may find it difficult to trust their own sense of past events"
http://www.drettensohn.com/having-a-parent-with-borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/
This article touched on several of the criteria that matches up with my experience and my ubpdM's behavior that I was trying to explain here. I was searching for something about bpd parents not trusting their children, thinking they are inherently bad (i know ive seen that) but i couldnt find it yet. My ubpdM almost always attributed malicious intentions and ill will to everything i did or didnt do that displeased her. Yet I was kind hearted and empathetic at a very young age. I thought she was confused and i was very confused that she couldnt 'see' who I was. I was a straight A student. I was quiet and shy. I cared about other peoples feelings more than my own.

[NumbLotus]

"is everything ok between us?"

A healthy parent: I sense something going on and want to discuss it. I am hoping the answer is "everything is great, just busy" but if it's something else, I would like to know. I may be upset at your answer, and I may disagree with your answer, but I will fundamentally accept that your feelings and perceptions are yours, and I will not punish you for them. I hope we can work this out so we're both feeling better.

A PD parent: You are making me feel like there's a problem and I need you to fix it right now. You need to convince me everything is fine. If you do not, I will punish you for it.

they cant remember

A healthy parent: I don't remember it that way. You do? Tell me more. I am listening because I accept that your memory may be valid even if I don't share it. I will tell you how I remember it but I'm not dismissing you. If something you say jogs my memory, I will admit it. I may disagree with your perception of events but I accept that you have a point of view. I may feel defensive about your memory but you are not crazy.

A PD parent: No. That didn't happen. You are wrong. You are crazy. I will not even consider your point. You're lying because you're a bad person. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

[Findingstrength729]

"is everything ok between us?"

A healthy parent: I sense something going on and want to discuss it. I am hoping the answer is "everything is great, just busy" but if it's something else, I would like to know. I may be upset at your answer, and I may disagree with your answer, but I will fundamentally accept that your feelings and perceptions are yours, and I will not punish you for them. I hope we can work this out so we're both feeling better.

A PD parent: You are making me feel like there's a problem and I need you to fix it right now. You need to convince me everything is fine. If you do not, I will punish you for it.

they cant remember

A healthy parent: I don't remember it that way. You do? Tell me more. I am listening because I accept that your memory may be valid even if I don't share it. I will tell you how I remember it but I'm not dismissing you. If something you say jogs my memory, I will admit it. I may disagree with your perception of events but I accept that you have a point of view. I may feel defensive about your memory but you are not crazy.

A PD parent: No. That didn't happen. You are wrong. You are crazy. I will not even consider your point. You're lying because you're a bad person. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Exactly........
I'm glad that despite my upbringing I do respond in healthy ways to my kids.   Or if I don't, I gladly listen and acknowledge feeling, apologize when needed. 

[all4peace]

NumbLotus does a great job of describing the difference in world views between a good-enough parent and a PD type parent.

DH and my parents have had variations on the same theme--"put the past in the past" and "forgive and forget."

We've had anything on the spectrum from acknowledgement of bad behavior AND no acceptance of responsibility or acknowledgement of the actual harm done to outright denial.

I actually think NF's "I wasn't good enough" followed by silent treatment, pride and repressed rage has been the hardest to accept. It's like he has pride in acknowledging where he behaved badly AND it should have nothing to do with how I feel towards him or anything to do with the state of our relationship. He verbally presumed my forgiveness and that of my siblings, and acknowledged absolutely nothing about his bad behavior to my siblings. It's a weird mix of shame and arrogance all wrapped up in the same person. All I know is that I have been invisible to him. How I feel and how I developed are apparently totally irrelevant. He's only interested in his own absolution, and shows me a lot of repressed rage when I'm not going along with his plot line.

I don't live in my parents' and IL's reality.

In my world, I can work on forgiveness to release bitterness from my soul AND I can choose limited contact with people who aren't a good influence, who are not safe, and who are not working (apparently) on self reflection and growth. THEY might be convinced that forgiveness=reconciliation, but I am not.

The fact is, my parents abused,  neglected and violated me in ways that caused a lot of damage. I have spent a lot of my life struggling with that damage, the last handful of years facing and trying to heal from that damage. They might wish that it wasn't so, but it is. They violated trust and safety with their children, and they now have adult children who don't trust or feel safe with them. IF they were willing for the really hard and painful work needed, then MAYBE they would be able to build relationships with us. But they aren't and so we don't. It's sad and yet I didn't make the rules of relationship and I no longer try to subvert the rules of relationship.

My own children are now adult and nearly adult. They are (thankfully!) bringing up things they wish had been different. Sometimes we remember it the same and openly acknowledge and apologize. Other times we remember it differently and still validate and are open to their view of it. There is nothing that is hidden or off the table for conversation, and we have openly invited them into any kind of discussion with us that they want to have, including critique of our parenting and the way we may have negatively impacted their lives. Generally, they bring up good things or simply live life in the present, but it takes away my anxiety to simply be willing to face everything, and I hope that it gives them a model for how relationships can be. It goes both ways. I let them know when their behavior is hurtful. Whether they change it or not, I love them. It's simply me speaking my own truth to them.

I think it must be terrifying to have an ego so fragile and defended that one is totally unable or unwilling to face reality. It must be a very scary way to live.

[moglow]

In my world, I can work on forgiveness to release bitterness from my soul AND I can choose limited contact with people who aren't a good influence, who are not safe, and who are not working (apparently) on self reflection and growth. THEY might be convinced that forgiveness=reconciliation, but I am not.

The fact is, my parents abused,  neglected and violated me in ways that caused a lot of damage. I have spent a lot of my life struggling with that damage, the last handful of years facing and trying to heal from that damage. They might wish that it wasn't so, but it is. They violated trust and safety with their children, and they now have adult children who don't trust or feel safe with them. IF they were willing for the really hard and painful work needed, then MAYBE they would be able to build relationships with us. But they aren't and so we don't. It's sad and yet I didn't make the rules of relationship and I no longer try to subvert the rules of relationship.

And then ...

I think it must be terrifying to have an ego so fragile and defended that one is totally unable or unwilling to face reality. It must be a very scary way to live.

Damn. That's powerful stuff right there. You touched my soul and I'm better for it.

[theonetoblame]

I've posted recently on a similar thread about 'forgiving and forgetting'. Forgetting is impossible, but doing so is put upon us by those who don't want reminders of their mistakes.

In my situation, it was impossible to forget because they kept doing the same stuff.... at one point I tried to explain to them that their current behavior was just like what they did in my childhood and that it was difficult to be a part of. As I've mentioned a few times, they launched into a mix of denying it ever happened and insisting that I 'forgive and forget'. I know they didn't forget... I think they were trying in their way to force me to never bring it up again and in so doing to ignore their ongoing toxic behavior. It's impossible to forget something when a person keeps on doing it, it was sooo triggering and unhealthy to be around.... such a messed up non-logic they were running with.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've come to believe that some PD's use the 'forget' lever as a way of gaining implicit permission for continuing with the same nonsense. After all, if I forgot what happened it couldn't have been all that bad and why bother even contemplating responsibility or change. Further to this, many PD's simply don't care about others the way I do -- they would rather me be NC than own and change their behavior. It's simply easier, so for them, better.

[Apparentlywicked]

I'm in the same place. Dad won't tolerate any talk of our childhood. If he feels slightly judged he will remind me of any of my childhood crimes such as leaving  the ironing board out.

He is unable to have the sort of conversation we would need to move through this. He is unable to see the deeper meaning to something. It is what it is. Me and sib are going to get counselling because we know the answers will never come from him, they're not in him.

[FogDawg]

They might wish that it wasn't so, but it is. They violated trust and safety with their children, and they now have adult children who don't trust or feel safe with them. IF they were willing for the really hard and painful work needed, then MAYBE they would be able to build relationships with us. But they aren't and so we don't. It's sad and yet I didn't make the rules of relationship and I no longer try to subvert the rules of relationship.

Actions always have consequences, yet PDs seem to think that they are somehow absolved of this and are entitled to a relationship regardless of how they act. A child's first association is with their parents, which certainly dictates a good amount of how they come to feel about themself and the world in general. When there is no trust and the feeling is not one of safety, how can there be any sort of healthy bond? Everyone makes mistakes and there is not a single perfect parent out there, yet there are some who at least try and are willing to admit when they screw up, which is what we all deserve.

In my situation, it was impossible to forget because they kept doing the same stuff.... at one point I tried to explain to them that their current behavior was just like what they did in my childhood and that it was difficult to be a part of. As I've mentioned a few times, they launched into a mix of denying it ever happened and insisting that I 'forgive and forget'. I know they didn't forget... I think they were trying in their way to force me to never bring it up again and in so doing to ignore their ongoing toxic behavior. It's impossible to forget something when a person keeps on doing it, it was sooo triggering and unhealthy to be around.... such a messed up non-logic they were running with.

Same here. When giving specific examples, like you said, it is denial all the way. No matter how many times I tried calling the behaviors out, they kept repeating and I simply could not handle it. To avoid winding up in a mental institution, or worse, I was left with no choice but to take my leave. There is no forgetting, only managing, which a decent amount of people cannot seem to grasp.