Is this triangulation?

[_apparentlywicked]

You're right. You're so right. It just shows how messed up it is that he can say those spiteful things and it not unsettle him at all. Whereas I'm tying myself in knots because I haven't returned his calls. 

[Spring Butterfly]

Guys I feel sick at the thought of ignoring him much longer. I'm toying with the idea of calling him when my partner is here and do it on speaker phone.

that sounds like a good idea. It worked for me to have others present when with uPDm for a while too.

He probably has no clue he's done anything at all, it's not in their reality and if he does know he likely doesn't think it's a big deal. It's often that way so it's best to start to 'wean him off' gently without arguing what he did in the past because history is often rewritten and didn't happen either at all or the way you remember it, etc. It's a real good idea to make sure he's on speaker and someone else is present.

[_apparentlywicked]

He probably has no clue he's done anything at all, it's not in their reality and if he does know he likely doesn't think it's a big deal.

Yeah when sib said they knew I was upset about something he said to them 'yeah I probably needed to hear that' sib said 'this isn't about you dad' still didn't get it. Never has. I would be consumed with guilt if I behaved like that to one of my kids.

Rambling a bit but from the age of about 13 if he was kicking off at me and I went out to get away from him he would then go into my room and tip ALL my belongings into a pile in the middle of the room. I'd come back later and by then he would have calmed down and would be going about his business whistling like all was well. It was never mentioned. I never protested because it was 'just dad.' Horrific. It doesn't take a psychology degree to extrapolate on the damage that does to a childs sense of self worth.

This projection thing is enlightening. When I think about the horrible things he's said to me it does sound like him when you look at the specific wording like 'stupid' 'nasty' etc.

[Adrianna]

He probably has no clue he's done anything at all, it's not in their reality and if he does know he likely doesn't think it's a big deal.

Yeah when sib said they knew I was upset about something he said to them 'yeah I probably needed to hear that' sib said 'this isn't about you dad' still didn't get it. Never has. I would be consumed with guilt if I behaved like that to one of my kids.

Rambling a bit but from the age of about 13 if he was kicking off at me and I went out to get away from him he would then go into my room and tip ALL my belongings into a pile in the middle of the room. I'd come back later and by then he would have calmed down and would be going about his business whistling like all was well. It was never mentioned. I never protested because it was 'just dad.' Horrific. It doesn't take a psychology degree to extrapolate on the damage that does to a childs sense of self worth.

This projection thing is enlightening. When I think about the horrible things he's said to me it does sound like him when you look at the specific wording like 'stupid' 'nasty' etc.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that as a child. Even at that young age I'm sure you knew something was really off with your father, that he could treat you that way then whistle like nothing was wrong and showed no remorse and of course no apology. They're all the same. We would never treat anyone like that and it's truly disturbing to watch someone live their lives with no empathy. I remember at a young age thinking "there's something wrong with these people." Our hearts and souls knew we and everyone else deserve to be treated better than that, and that there's something really really really not right about them.

[_apparentlywicked]

Thank you Adrianna. 😍  Validation of my history has always and will always be so important to me. I don't know if this is universal in children of pd parents but I have so much doubt. I don't trust myself. Its like chronic confusion sometimes when I'm stressed. I wouldn't be surprised if the gaslighting was the route of this. Thanks dad.

[Adrianna]

Yes it's common. We were taught that our feelings don't matter so we look for external validation to calm ourselves down. I had a tendency to overshare in hopes that someone could validate my feelings that yes, their behavior towards me is wrong and I do have a right to be upset. I kept wondering am I overreacting? Is that behavior just how people are? For so long I had a really negative view on humanity because I thought everyone was like them. They're not though. I was groomed to accept that behavior as normal when it's anything but.  It's a big mind shift to see and truly accept that there are kind people out there!

[StayWithMe]

I used to overshare as well in search if validation.

[Spring Butterfly]

Validation of my history has always and will always be so important to me... have so much doubt. I don't trust myself... wouldn't be surprised if the gaslighting was the route of this.

yes it absolutely is and I just had this conversation with DH the other day. It's gaslighting itself that creates the self-doubt because you have a gut feeling, you're lied to / gaslighted / DARVO'd and through all of that learn to not trust your gut and to doubt your judgment. That is the end result of gaslighting.

Awareness has been the key for me to learn to trust my gut and yet at the same time to disconnect from the gas lighter.

There was a situation the past few months and I just knew my gut was right and yet I was able to mostly disconnect from it, to realize the other person is lying flat out and to not care, mentally walk away. So it wasn't ruminating and spinning in my head as much as these things usually do because I trusted my gut.

It's a process and it takes time, just know that your gut is right. You don't need anyone outside to tell you that it is just close your eyes and listen, turn your attention inward and quietly breathe.

[StayWithMe]

IMO, validation has a lot to do with believing that you deserve this.  That is, you deserve better treatment and so on.  People could easily catch me on you're stingy, evil, mean greedy and so on. 

You have to decide on a standard for yourself and unapologetically stick with it.  I've also learned that people will argue with you less when you don't allow room for discussion -- and most likely accept your standards as a result.  so much for those open honest dialogues that many therapists promote.

For example, I was told that my standards were too high in finding a husband.  So I stopped talking to my family about my dating and chose a guy who has no interest in pandering to my family.  Every time my mother asks "how's your husband.  How's his family?"  The answer is always they're  fine. 

Mom, you lost the parent child privilege. 

[_apparentlywicked]

Thanks addrianna, Staywithme and Spring Butterfly🦋

He's now left 7 messages since my first post on here. None mention the abuse and I'm calling it that because that's what it is. Continuation of the life long abuse I've had from him. I'm feeling so angry. Angry in a way I have never felt. He can't do what he always did and just whistle like he's happy now. And I'm gaslighted into just allowing things to continue. Not a chance mate. I am thinking tentatively about cutting contact, that feels insane and logical. I don't need to make any decisions. I can continue to ignore his calls. I don't believe he is counting. I believe every call is in its own universe. He's like a robot, some grotesque rancid meat covered robot with a silent void where his heart should be.

[_apparentlywicked]

Which is what I should have chosen to do as a better person.  It definitely was poking the crazy so I wouldn't do it if you have any fears of physical retaliation from your father.

Ha! Get me pi##ed and you're on! You can even choose what I say and we can all place bets on what he says/does.

[Spring Butterfly]

Karla McLaren's blog on anger is really good. It's tapping into that anger that allows us to reset our boundaries.

[_apparentlywicked]

Thanks Spring I'll check that out.

Not feeling as angry this morning. I tried a healing exercise yesterday I had read about that really helped. It starts off like mindfulness but then you take yourself back to an instance of abuse and identify every feeling. You then validate these feelings telling yourself you love yourself for having those feelings. Sounds a bit whacky but it restores a sense of belief in your ability to read reality and your own power. At the end you visualise the feelings draining away. Last night when I was trying to fall asleep I remembered how that exercise brings on feelings and then lets them float away so having done that earlier I was then able to let the anger float away so I could sleep.

I only tried the exercise on one of the lesser instances of abuse as the article said to build up slowly and start off small before attempting the worst stuff.

Anyone got other helpful techniques?

[_apparentlywicked]

Hey all.

Still just sitting tight. I've been reading more about NPD. I'm wondering if he may have both ocpd and NPD as he reacts angrily to criticism about anything and not just things about orderliness. He also monologues about his perceived prowess in a job almost 50 years ago. A lot. He fishes for compliments.

When I saw him last time (when he got nasty when I said he shouldn't tell sib he's dying just to get her to visit more) he'd been monologing about how some of the staff at his home slag off their parents and go on about how horrible they were and how he says 'you must have some happy memories' to them which I now feel is him preemptively minimising the historical abuse.
It also displays a fundamental lack of understanding  how little he knows about humans if he doesn't know that bad experiences are psychologically louder than any thing else. 

And then he says the carers tell him what a wonderful dad he's been and he feigns humility to me shrugging his shoulders. It's ridiculous. And it wasn't long after that that I told him he shouldn't leave messages like that on sibs phone so I guess his vicious response was his reaction to a narcissistic injury: I didn't reflect back the same image of him that he wanted. He was saying 'you will believe I am a wonderful parent' and I was telling him he'd been abusive.

I'm swinging between anger and empathy and guess as time goes it'll settle into that weird nebulous mix that most of life is. I'm thinking about visiting with partner soon. Being armed with this new appreciation of his motivation makes me think I'll be better able to approach it more clinically.

Am I kidding myself? I would like to be able to see him. I don't want to cause him any harm by no contact and I guess MC is the way to go.

[Outsiderchild]

It helps me when dealing with PD members of my family to keep in mind that they are not dealing from the same deck of cards that I am. Heck.  We aren't even playing the same game!  I am visiting my PD elderly parent and my PD sibling in a few days. I am not sure when the disconnect between PD World and reality will happen. I'm just sure it will.  And while I will never understand their selfishness and needs, it would be foolish for me not to remember them. 

Whenever I can sort of follow their "thought processes" it helps me feel in control, less bewildered by their words and behaviors.  But sometimes I. Just.  Don't. Get. It.  And I am reminding myself that they ARE PD's and by definition not logical, rational or kind.  It is almost a half-baked answer to the wailed questions of "Why do they do this? " and  "Why don't they love me?"   Not a good enough answer, but the only one they got.

So yes, it is helpful to understand that your father's viciousness possibly came because of the prior conversations with his carers and your response that didn't fit the dreamworld he is living in.  It helps with not owning his rage.  Just be careful to walk that line and not cross over into blaming yourself because you didn't say or do the "right thing" that would make him happy.  This is where I hold the Three C's close to your heart. 

No matter what the PD's tell you!  We  didn't cause it, we can't cure it and we cannot control it. 

[_apparentlywicked]

Yeah outsider that's important. That I can understand it but can't control it, much like a hurricane. Or a wasps nest.  I guess that's a good analogy for them because they react aggressively so effortlessly. And knowing why is helpful to me to appreciateb it's nothing to do with me.  But not much help if he's broken your jaw. Luckily he's bed bound and hasn't been physically aggressive with me since I moved out at 16 (and in with my abusive boyfriend but that's another built violin session) so I don't feel physically scared. It's more psychological. It's always been more words. The violence was offhand shoves and slaps.  (I initially typed 'just' then.)

Generally feeling more upbeat. There was one day last week when I felt quite sick about it all. Like whole body disgust.  Now seeing lots of positives to the revelation.

How insane would it be to call him and tell him I am about to say something quite serious. Tell him i think he has a problem with his self esteem that means he reacts angrily when people don't say what he wants to hear and that pushes people away. I will then say that I would like to talk more about it and ways we can help him feel happier and get on better. I will end the call saying call me when you've had a think about it. Tell him I love him. All that blah blah

And then wait...

[_apparentlywicked]

Hey all. Dad's stopped leaving sugary messages. He's twigged. He's not said anything at all to sib. I wouldn't be surprised if he never does. He'll just erase my existence.

I'm doing well. It's like now I've started to explore it a bit my brain knows what it needs to do. The other night I had a memory that hurt. I got a bit tearful, then it was sobs. I said out loud 'why did you break my heart Daddy' it just came from nowhere, I don't think I'd ever put it so succinctly. It's freaky like our souls know what we need to confront. My god it was incredibly painful at the time but I knew it was being brought up because I needed to experience it. It may be part of a grieving process where I'm truly letting go of this fantasy of him just being a bit self absorbed and that one day he'll realise how abusive he's been. He won't. But that's okay because I know and I know it was a massive breach of my rights. It's like I'm disconnecting any value in what he says and does. And putting it all back in me.

[_apparentlywicked]

Dad went quiet for a while but left a message last night. I haven't listened to it. I'm gonna get husband to for me.

I've been feeling sick since I saw he'd called. I'm so frustrated that he has this over me. I had one weird dream after another of being lost and not having anyway to get back to where I needed to be. Eurgh

I'm aware I need to push forward with the grieving for him being even a 'good enough' parent. It's just so hard to let go of the hope of the inner child. But it's baby steps and I feel so strongly that this is now about ME. It's going to be in MY time. According to MY needs.

I read that when you have a pd parent family is all about them. And it so was. It's been about him since I was born. It's got to stop.

[_apparentlywicked]

I listened to it. The Roboid left an almost identical message to every other. I had a good cry after. Inner child was hurt that he is what he is. But inner child validated all her precious feelings so she felt better pretty quickly. 🦋

[Spring Butterfly]

Very good that you're making time for healing and self care! Happy for you although sad it's happening to you.