seeking opinions - what to do?

[Elsbeth]

Background (skip if you recognize me and my story)
Nearing 12 year mark on the separating, divorcing, co-parenting with an unPD.  Waiting on the last official court order which ties loose end on credits (back to me) and loose ends on who pays how much (percentage) and for what (definition of costs) for higher education for the kiddos. The details for the order have already been ruled upon. The order just gets stamped and filed; and then enforcement can occur IF not followed.

Current Issue
Though defined in a filed and enforceable order, the unPD does not necessarily accept the definition of what the unPD is suppose to contribute for education costs. In the past I have subsumed those costs. Of late, the children have subsumed those costs (using their own part time job monies to cover that which is technically to be paid partly by the unPD parent).

I have documented in receipts and emails what the unPD was to pay, the receipts for the costs, and any response, if at all. Responses typically fall into any one of (a) word salad (b) gaslighting  (c) selective incompetence or (d) non-response reply (ie, replies to the email but does not answer anything remotely related in the email.

The monies the unPD owes has reached 5 figures and continues to grow.

My question for the group - What do I do?

My recourse is filing an enforcement motion with the court to recoup lost monies - and force the nPD to pay their share for the defined education expenses and such.

This would mean incurring legal fees, time, and the result is not guaranteed at all. I state that unequivocally as I wrote earlier - this is 12 years. The unPD and the unPD lawyer are a perfect storm of narcissistic tactics and "even the most seasoned legal professionals can be and have been played by a narcissist".

At best, my chance for "win" is a coin toss; dependent upon the judge assigned but mostly dependent upon actually getting before the judge. If past is prologue, and it is with nPDs, what will transpire is much back and forth between lawyers (read as incurring fees), delay tactics (read as incurring fees), and finally either settlement before entering the courtroom (read as incurring fees) or entering the courtroom and leaving it in the hands of a judge. Judges do not like to award legal fees butfor true financial need basis.  So if I can pay without losing shelter over my head, the judge really won't award fees even if I prevail.

But this means paying out more than what was deemed my share. Will I still have a roof over my head if I do this? With much gratitude, absolutely. I will have clothes on my back and food on my table. The necessities. As for the niceties? Probably not.

But It will also mean that the unPD KNOWS they can continue to do this without recourse. And again, if past is prologue, then this tactic of non-payment expands to other payments. The only guarantee payments are those collected through the court (which I gratefully fought and won, as is my legal right where I am, to have collected by the court and distributed to me monthly and these items are set and well defined fixed amounts). The game playing by the unPD is typically with the "variable expenses" that get shared as co-parents by percentage. For example, a $1000 doctor bill is split X% to the unPD and (100%-X%) to me.

What do I do?

Do I accept my fate is that only the fixed court collected and distributed monies are what I will receive and although much other expenses  are court ordered to be shared expenses, I will solely carry those burdens?

Or do I go back and roll the dice with battling in court, via an enforcement motion, for that which is ordered?


It is unfair the burden but is that besides the point? I guess the truly crazy part is that I am experiencing the exact. same. thing. as the unPD did 12 years ago when it came to "shared expenses" : The unPD stands there (like a petulant child) proverbially saying "nah, nah nah, nah nah ... make me" and I am standing there feeling emasculated, impotent, defeated.

[SoStuck]

Sigh... I am just at the beginning of this journey of trying to cut my pdh out of my life. Your note brings me despair that you are still dealing with it 12 years later. I'm so sorry.

I'd go back to court for the enforcement order. It is awful that you are in a position of constantly having to back to court to get action, particularly when it appears as though he's just doing it to be a nuisance. You would think that in a situation like that the judge would see it for what it is and force the legal fees to be absorbed by the one causing the nuisance? Is there any case for an argument of that nature. Because then at least it might deter him from continuing to refuse payment?

I'm so sorry you are going through this.

[xredshoesx]

i'm sorry this is still dragging out and affecting you and your children.  part of me says fight for what the courts said is fair, but then knowing how long it took the divorce between my uPD mother and father (it wasn't finalized until i was in HS and she left him when i was 7...... ) it may be less emotionally damaging to keep doing what you can do, have the kids keep doing what they can do and pay for college without involving him.  like the hardship of coughing up the extra money is worth severing the tie. 

another question i have is does the judgement preclude the kids from being eligible for financial aid/grants?  i know that was an issue for me until i was in my mid 20s- i couldn't apply without uPD mother's financials (dad signed off on me legally a while back so he was a non-issue here).  if you do decided to pursue the legal path, i wonder if that can be part of your argument- he can pay or provide but won't and because of his ability to provide the kids can't get aid so he in fact is keeping them from applying for aid for school???? 

as a side note, how are your kids feeling about this?  i'd think that if nothing else it makes them really *see* who their father is and that has got to be hard hard hard for them emotionally too because you've all been in limbo like this for the entire 12 years of the process- waiting for him to make his obligations and then having to fight for him to do so.

[Elsbeth]

Court

Many judges over the past decade+ which means no one judge has seen or followed the behavior and no one judge now will  SEE the nuance of the behavior -  "even the most seasoned legal mind can be fooled" especially when it is a charming unPD and the lawyer for the unPD is not adverse to using "tactics". I don't blame the courts - they are over worked and understaffed and in the case of PDs, woefully uneducated and unaware.

Aid

Not happening as there is joint legal custody so ability to pay and the order specifying payment is controlled by the court which has deemed both parties together are capable of paying as defined. To change such a finding would require filing and proving a change of circumstances.

kids

For the most part they have been insulated from the worse of the financial behavior. However with being in higher education it is now incumbent upon them to be involved. The schools treat the bills as the kids bills, not the parents. It is a part of learning and becoming a full fledge adult in my opinion. So how do they feel - kinda like any adult, paying bills sucks and getting blood from a stone also sucks. But they have learned to do the tasks - send the bills, send the ask for money, and send repeats if need be. They also have learned to cover expenses they are not "ordered" to do so and a lot of times that means asking me for the help.

[NumbLotus]

Option 1: Do nothing

You will not receive any justice.
You will lose an amount of money that will affect your future security (whether modestly or significantly, I can't say).
You will lose an unknown future amount of money as he will know he can do that.

Option 2: Fight

Outcome A: Lose

In this scenario, you will receive no justice.
You will lose a greater amount of money that in Option 1, threatening your security further.
You will lose a future amount of money, possibly greater, as he knows he can get away with it.
Probability probably less than 50% as the facts appear to be strongly on your side.

Outcome B: Win

You will receive justice.
You will lose legal costs but win the judgement. (Will the jusgement be collected? Would wage garnishment be possible? What will force him to pay?)
Future losses may be reduced.

How do you personally weigh justice against security? That's a personal values question.

Well I don't have an answer but you seem to be a logical person. It may help to write out the scenarios, estimate their probabilities, see if anything jumps out at you.

[Elsbeth]

NumbLotus ... pretty good layout of the options ...

I think I have figured out the what to do ... its been helpful having laid it out here and seeing it through other peoples eyes

[Whatthehey]

Elsbeth,

Numblotus's options are clear.  Also consider the other side - if you don't take him to court, he gets away with it.  Who knows what else he won't participate in.  Even though it will cost fees, hardship, pain and all the rest, you are in the right, your children come first and the agreement is clear.  You have your documentation and you can win.  He does not deserve a pass. 

Hold him to the fire.  It's what he agreed to pay so he should pay.

[BeautifulCrazy]

I have successfully gone to court for enforcement orders twice.
You really needn't worry that your chances of winning an enforcement order have anything but good odds in court. It isn't the same as other motions brought before court, where the judge has a lot of discretion and you are the mercy of any number of things right down to the judge's mood that day. With an enforcement order, there is already an order in place. The other party is in violation of that order, you are simply in front of the judge to get it enforced. Period.
Both times I won enforcement for every single item included in my motion (at the rate agreed in the original order which, like yours is a percentage for variable expenses) plus interest. As long as you can provide receipts for all of the things you are asking to be enforced, and copies of both sides of your communications regarding those costs, (to prove your due diligence) you should have zero problem getting an order. It sounds like you have all this already. I also won costs on my first enforcement motion. I didn't ask the second time because I filed myself instead of doing the expensive and redundant lawyer thing. He was (AGAIN!) provably and unquestionably in contempt/ violation of the existing order, I just needed enforcement... the whole point of filing the motion!
In my case, all of this was added to his child support arrears and is garnished from his paycheques through the same agencies we have used the past 7 years. 
The second time, when I filed it myself, it was not as difficult as I imagined. There are procedures and forms which are all publicly accessible. The only cost to you would be printing the forms, any filing fees and of course any time you may miss from work for your court appearance.

[Penny Lane]

Elsbeth,
I really like NumbLotus's breakdown.

I want to add - you have no good choices here, only bad ones. There are upsides and downsides to each of the options available to you. (The best option, of course is that he JUST FOLLOW THE ORDER - but that's not under your control). You know the short-term and long-term consequences. So it really comes down to what you're most able to live with. And there's no wrong answer. Really it probably comes down to, are you  more willing to leave money on the table or to spend more emotional energy on enforcement? Money vs emotional energy, neither one is more valuable than the other it just depends on how much you have to spare of each, you know?

Like I said, you're not wrong no matter what you do here. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this, I know how hard it can be.

[hhaw]

Beautiful Crazy filing a contempt motion herself and winning,  sounds like a pretty good option to consider, IMO.

[Jsinjin]

I know that with court orders there are institutions which can legally and enforcably garnish wages, pensions and even insist that all banking and work payroll or transactions include the court mandated money.    And you have already won the judgement.

I'm a bit weird when it comes to my uOCPDw though.   If I had a chance to cut her loose and receive nothing back or pay her so that I didn't have to interact it would be money well spent; irrespective of Justice.    My feelings on the justice part of things are that the work you have gone through is probably way more than the justice fight will yeuld even if you do get the money.   I feel that with a PD, they would not see the judgement or even the payment as "right" or "fair" and their limited world view would not be that they were or were not getting away with something, they are right and you are wrong.    If the fight is about justice for you then the  only group to recognize that justice will be you and the courts.   That may be enough.    But I can bet that the pd would not be sitting smug if they didn't pay or feel that you have won if they did pay.    They simply act in their own best interests.

The real question for  me would be,  how can you leave the PD and the meas far behind and start a new day with that chapter closed except for your kids and a better life.

But!!!    I'm not a lawyer, I'm not you and I'm absolutely not right, just expressing my own thoughts from my own situation.   I'm somewhat blessed that I'm the principal breadwinner and the PD in my life is a full time mega volunteer so in our case I would be the one with the support which I would consider money well spent to have the problems go.

[Crushed_Dad]

I know that with court orders there are institutions which can legally and enforcably garnish wages, pensions and even insist that all banking and work payroll or transactions include the court mandated money.    And you have already won the judgement.

I'm a bit weird when it comes to my uOCPDw though.   If I had a chance to cut her loose and receive nothing back or pay her so that I didn't have to interact it would be money well spent; irrespective of Justice.    My feelings on the justice part of things are that the work you have gone through is probably way more than the justice fight will yeuld even if you do get the money.   I feel that with a PD, they would not see the judgement or even the payment as "right" or "fair" and their limited world view would not be that they were or were not getting away with something, they are right and you are wrong.    If the fight is about justice for you then the  only group to recognize that justice will be you and the courts.   That may be enough.    But I can bet that the pd would not be sitting smug if they didn't pay or feel that you have won if they did pay.    They simply act in their own best interests.

The real question for  me would be,  how can you leave the PD and the meas far behind and start a new day with that chapter closed except for your kids and a better life.

But!!!    I'm not a lawyer, I'm not you and I'm absolutely not right, just expressing my own thoughts from my own situation.   I'm somewhat blessed that I'm the principal breadwinner and the PD in my life is a full time mega volunteer so in our case I would be the one with the support which I would consider money well spent to have the problems go.

I don't think you can Jin, there is a life sentence of connection there because of children, you/us will never be truly free of these people. What makes me so upset is that throughout it all the kids are the ones who really suffer. I try to imagine what they'd say if they were grown up enough to know the situation and what UnPDSTBX and me were doing to each other, knowing the impact it will have on their lives and futures. I feel ashamed about that but nonetheless as we're being attacked, so we have to defend ourselves and that unfortunately is by any means necessary not to be swallowed up.

[Elsbeth]

The real question for  me would be,  how can you leave the PD and the meas far behind and start a new day with that chapter closed except for your kids and a better life.

The answer to the above question is ..... NO CONTACT

and that comes when children are emancipated. I await the day when any contact from the ex-nPD can be met with "new phone, who dis?" and then of course, BLOCK.

[Elsbeth]

I have successfully gone to court for enforcement orders twice.
You really needn't worry that your chances of winning an enforcement order have anything but good odds in court. It isn't the same as other motions brought before court, where the judge has a lot of discretion and you are the mercy of any number of things right down to the judge's mood that day. With an enforcement order, there is already an order in place. The other party is in violation of that order, you are simply in front of the judge to get it enforced. Period.

BeautifulCrazy ... first, congratulations on successful enforcement motions.

I ultimately look at my choice of what to do as want / need. Do I want the orders enforced? Absolutely. Is it a need? No as I have food, clothing, shelter.

And I hold no positive view of the court; too much watching the most seasoned legal mind fall for tactics of the ex-nPD and their lawyer.

[Elsbeth]

Elsbeth,

Numblotus's options are clear.  Also consider the other side - if you don't take him to court, he gets away with it.  Who knows what else he won't participate in.  Even though it will cost fees, hardship, pain and all the rest, you are in the right, your children come first and the agreement is clear.  You have your documentation and you can win.  He does not deserve a pass. 

Hold him to the fire.  It's what he agreed to pay so he should pay.

I have been asked "do you want to be right? or happy?"  Yes I am right and the order clear. But the business of my mental health comes first and that falls into being happy. I am happy not to be preparing for court.

Does the ex-nPD deserve a pass? Of course not. The X deserves to be held accountable. I wonder how many nPDs have actually been held accountable for their actions.