Its OK if it costs me money but he wont spend a penny!

[lkdrymom]

I agree with WI it is easier not to care once you start not to respond to their requests. They look tempting because in the past we thought we could help. We've been brought up to believe that their happiness is our responsibility.
I nearly ended up taking my dad round various rest homes till he let slip  early in in the talks about it, that he wouldn't move anywhere unless it was ' exactly like home' .
He reiterated - it had to be EXACTLY like home!
That's impossible.   Ahh then I realised he was just after the chance of getting me to take him here there and everywhere  and then he would reject each one  with that smile he does, and tell me why in sordid detail over his many  treat-lunch after the visits!
All. Those. Rejections! How he would enjoy that!
So.....
I stopped offering!

My father did the same thing with hearing aids.  We begged him to get them for years. Finally a person in authority told him he needed them so he agreed.  I had to take off work three times to take him to various appointments. When it was time to get them he sad...maybe we will order them in the Fall.  Wait? What?  No you are getting them now!  He tries them once, says he doesn't like how HE sounds and gives them back.  At that point I realized he had no intentions of getting them, he just enjoyed the trips out to the doctor on my time.  I told him I would no longer be his ears for him and he was on his own.  Said he understood....but he really didn't believe me until the next time he tried to get me to make a phone call for him "Because I can't hear....".  Took me 20 minutes to get him to understand that I was no longer going to do that for him. If he can't be bothered to help himself why should I do it? 

And the other gem from him....."I thought you needed something to do".

[p123]

My dad promised to take my son to an important golf tournament. He promised this in front of some people he wanted to impress( they were doctors). He positively beamed it round the room and then lapped up the thanks from my son.

A few weeks later he backed out because he found out that " pensioners had to pay full price!" He changed his mind in a heartbeat. Cue several moany phone calls to me, berating the organisers. Poor me, poor me!  It was daylight robbery, didn't I agree?
Not really dad.
At no point did he say sorry to my disappointed son, who was looking forward to the golf, but even more to spending time with his granddad on his own. I think it had happened about one time before in his life
After that my son told me he now understood where I was coming from about granddad. I'd only  been Out of the FOG about a year, and my kids were still in it.

If dad is paying, it's the set menu at the local carvery / pub or similar. Or it's wherever my UNPD bro has got coupons for!
Even then he will look at the bill and say he will pay for a percentage of it, and will 'take donations'. Two of my siblings are always flat broke, and UnPD bro is very mean, so
it's me and my hubby who take the strain at these times.
When we take him out just us though, of course we always pay. We are happy to, but he will always suggest an upmarket restaurant. All this is fine, he's an old man after all- it's just when it's all the time, you start to feel a bit used and abused!
However, we just don't do the family parties any more. I've listened to kris Godinez and she made me realise I didn't have to attend them!

Oh the phrase "daylight robbery". Does my head in? And "well thats a racket" (i.e scam).

"cup of tea £1.50 day light robbery." And pretty much EVERYTHING else. I remember taking my dad out once with daughter, it was xmas, santa was there in the country park. £2 it was. Dad went on for ages how "they should be locked up for charging that much".

Restaurants he never goes anywhere nice so at least I dont have to pay. One year we went away for two nights to watch cricket. Travelodge - which is ok. (He moans we dont get a twin room to "save money" - share with Dad I'd rather chew my own arm off!)

Anyway, no brek included but there was a wetherspoons. So we had 2x breakfast there, and 2x evening meal. I dont mind 'spoons but every day just because its cheap? Also he has ham, egg and chips £3 or something - cheapest thing on menu. Then moans that "I've got more money than sense whats wriong with the ham" when I go for the steak at £8".

Its SO annoying hes so tight....

[p123]

P123 wrote:

But as I've said its URGENT got to be done now. So I look into it for him. Suddenly "it costs money?" then its "Oh I dont need it". Then like this, I get a 20 min conversation because hes so pleased with himself at saving £20. I just cannot be bothered.

You know the things your dad is moaning about will cost money, so there's your answer:  don't do any research and save your time! 

Medium Chill him instead with, "Gosh, that's a shame..." or, "Sorry to hear it..." - and change the subject. 

If  he  asks why you don't seem to care, you might consider telling him the truth:  "Dad, you moan about things not working, I do research, tell you how much the item is to replace, and you shoot it down, saying it's too expensive, so I thought I'd just cut that part out and get right to you living with and making do with the broken item."   

Can't hurt, can it?   

You're not being mean, cruel, harsh or cold - you're just pointing out the obvious facts and getting to the end a lot faster and with FAR less frustration on your part. 

If he says something like, "Fine, I won't tell you when anything breaks..."   

Stick to, "Thank you.  I really appreciate that..." - and maybe end the call on something of a high note. 

Sometimes they give us all the material we need to work with - and we just have to realize it.

Didi was big on me researching holistic cures for her many ills, paying me back (most of the time), and not using the stuff I'd procured for her, for reasons. 

I think she just liked keeping me busy, thinking about her problems and didn't want any of them helped, managed, made more bearable or maybe even cured.   

The stuff would sit on the kitchen table, or maybe the floor by Her Waify Majesty's kitchen chair, and would stay there - or it might be moved to the hoarded-up floor of the Dollhouse Room and chucked in a pile. 

One day I just started kicking everything back to her doctor or pharmacist and never told her the truth, because she'd never accept ANY responsibility for herself. 

She gasped the first time I did it, then got ANGRY and started slamming the phone down, but by then, I DNGAF.   

NO F's to G. 

It's a LOT easier to detach and set boundaries when you get to this point - a good boundary for you would be NO RESEARCH into things that will be rejected as expensive.

Another boundary might be you ARE having the groceries delivered, and that's that.

Another might be NO visits to the ER or hospital, if he starts acting out - and NO, you will NOT drive him home.

See what I mean - they become MUCH more clear and MUCH easier to implement - and enforce - when the time comes.

Ha ha you're not wrong WI. The number of times hes asked me EVERY PHONE CALL then completely lost interest when its involved spending money,,,,,
I've started to say now "oh you can't get thay any more".

His satellite tv is another I lie about. One time I got him a discount (£20 for 6 months), he was over the moon. Of course, regular intervals he wants me to phone them to ask again. Umm no I'm not doing that all the time. So now I just say "yeh phoned them they said no discount since you recently had one".

[tob-ler-one]

share with Dad I'd rather chew my own arm off!

All of your stories remind me that I did too much for my mother, and it was all with the best of the effort I knew to put in. I'm not sure whether she was just too demanding or I was too incapable of doing what she wanted. I know that I'm not necessarily incapable, it just felt like it.

[nanotech]

There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad. 
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

[p123]

There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad. 
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

OMG its all so familiar......

The "whats  the matter with you two the kids dont need this much for xmas" over the xmas dinner table was one of the reasons we stopped the xmas day visit.
Last year I also had the "what the matter with you? You don't need another holiday" when I told him we were off to Florida for 3 weeks (we'd been to spain for 5 days earlier on).

Oh and don't get me going about how I work. Jeez its constant. I work in IT sort of self employed. Contract work. No work no pay. Work somewhere for between 3 months and a few years but theres no job security. I love it this way. (Of course the pay is 2.5x to 3x times more as well!)

Dad just can;'t get his head around why I'd EVER take a day off. Or why I'd even do it this way and not get a "proper" job. He will not let it go. Of course this coming from the guy who worked in a factory for 40 years, hated it, never did what he wanted to do.

[lkdrymom]

There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad. 
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

OMG its all so familiar......

The "whats  the matter with you two the kids dont need this much for xmas" over the xmas dinner table was one of the reasons we stopped the xmas day visit.
Last year I also had the "what the matter with you? You don't need another holiday" when I told him we were off to Florida for 3 weeks (we'd been to spain for 5 days earlier on).

Oh and don't get me going about how I work. Jeez its constant. I work in IT sort of self employed. Contract work. No work no pay. Work somewhere for between 3 months and a few years but theres no job security. I love it this way. (Of course the pay is 2.5x to 3x times more as well!)

Dad just can;'t get his head around why I'd EVER take a day off. Or why I'd even do it this way and not get a "proper" job. He will not let it go. Of course this coming from the guy who worked in a factory for 40 years, hated it, never did what he wanted to do.

Maybe he is resentful that you are actually enjoying your life.

[p123]

There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad. 
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

OMG its all so familiar......

The "whats  the matter with you two the kids dont need this much for xmas" over the xmas dinner table was one of the reasons we stopped the xmas day visit.
Last year I also had the "what the matter with you? You don't need another holiday" when I told him we were off to Florida for 3 weeks (we'd been to spain for 5 days earlier on).

Oh and don't get me going about how I work. Jeez its constant. I work in IT sort of self employed. Contract work. No work no pay. Work somewhere for between 3 months and a few years but theres no job security. I love it this way. (Of course the pay is 2.5x to 3x times more as well!)

Dad just can;'t get his head around why I'd EVER take a day off. Or why I'd even do it this way and not get a "proper" job. He will not let it go. Of course this coming from the guy who worked in a factory for 40 years, hated it, never did what he wanted to do.

Maybe he is resentful that you are actually enjoying your life.

Thats just it in the past I've offered to take him out, take him away and he just says no. Even if I take him he behaves badly....

Hes definitely jealous of the time I spend with my family and not with him though.

[NumbLotus]

Some of the stuff your dad says makes me think it came straight from his own parents. "Get a steady job. Keep your head down. Make sure the boss is happy. Don't take any risks. Money belongs in the bank. Dreams? Don't be absurd. Fun, enjoyment? Complete waste. You'll end up dead in a gutter if you chase these foolish things."

Ine thing that makes me think this is his oarents' voice is that he looks to you for reassurance that some monetary decision was a good one. Like "I saved 20 quid, that was good, right?" Almost like he was hoping his own father would tell him he did good and was a good boy.

I also wonder if he can't enjoy things for the same reason. Imagine he was a boy and wanted, I dunno, a radio or model airplane or a spiffy pair of shoes. He asks his parents and they are APPALLED he would even ask. He clearly has high anxiety naturally so now if he thinks about a holiday or a new TV or whatever, bam, his parents' voices are in his head shaming him. He feels tightness and awfulness. How could he enjoy it? And he is bacfled that you could.

When he thinks about his $40k in the bank, he feels like a good boy. Maybe his mum and dad would be pleased, he hopes deep inside him. Maybe.

[p123]

Some of the stuff your dad says makes me think it came straight from his own parents. "Get a steady job. Keep your head down. Make sure the boss is happy. Don't take any risks. Money belongs in the bank. Dreams? Don't be absurd. Fun, enjoyment? Complete waste. You'll end up dead in a gutter if you chase these foolish things."

Ine thing that makes me think this is his oarents' voice is that he looks to you for reassurance that some monetary decision was a good one. Like "I saved 20 quid, that was good, right?" Almost like he was hoping his own father would tell him he did good and was a good boy.

I also wonder if he can't enjoy things for the same reason. Imagine he was a boy and wanted, I dunno, a radio or model airplane or a spiffy pair of shoes. He asks his parents and they are APPALLED he would even ask. He clearly has high anxiety naturally so now if he thinks about a holiday or a new TV or whatever, bam, his parents' voices are in his head shaming him. He feels tightness and awfulness. How could he enjoy it? And he is bacfled that you could.

When he thinks about his $40k in the bank, he feels like a good boy. Maybe his mum and dad would be pleased, he hopes deep inside him. Maybe.

Definitely. His family were VERY poor. 2nd world war. Grandad worked down the coal mine in the welsh valleys.....
Dad has always been like this. "To be on the safe side" is his favourite phrase.

I think I'm the opposite lol.

Yes I thought he got a glow from having money in the bank then I realised he pretty much does not know. So I think its a glow from "not wasting it" now. Not helped that all his friends are like this - its shameful to waste money or even spend it.

Crazy, eh?

[NumbLotus]

Yeah the values are generational. That generation (grandparents of those of us in our 40s) is the same here in the US - Great Depression then the war. So some of our parents were affeced by this upbringing by that generation.

The values are annoying to those of us who came later because while they were required for survival in the 30s and 40s, they were not useful afterwards. And in fact are maladaptive, in the sense that needs go unmet in the name if a frugality that is not currently needed (it will again some day though).

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

[p123]

Yeah the values are generational. That generation (grandparents of those of us in our 40s) is the same here in the US - Great Depression then the war.

The values are annoying to those of us who came later because while they were required for survival in the 30s and 40s, they were not useful afterwards. And in fact are maladaptive, in the sense that needs go unmet in the name if a frugality that is not currently needed (it will again some day though).

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

Yes I can see..... :-)

Oh he certainly expects that everyone is like him thats for sure. He gets really nasty and cant understand how someone can be so stupid. Like you said, if it was just his opinion I could ignore.....

[Sidney37]

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

This is the key.  I've been questioning for months if the issues I'm having  with uPDM and enD are cultural or generational i stress of PD.   They, too, grew up very poor.   Some of their attitudes and beliefs might be, but  the issue is when they make their anxieties and values ours and will accept nothing else. 

[p123]

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

This is the key.  I've been questioning for months if the issues I'm having  with uPDM and enD are cultural or generational i stress of PD.   They, too, grew up very poor.   Some of their attitudes and beliefs might be, but  the issue is when they make their anxieties and values ours and will accept nothing else.

Yes Dad started off with "this is what I think and my opinion" to "you MUST DO THIS". Thats when the problems started.

Now he calls me irresponsible and immature because I book a holiday and take time off work at all! Last year he said one holiday (it was 4 days) is enough and I was immature and irresponsible taking time off work twice in a year!

He even asked if my boss minded if I took time off and I'd better not have upset them! (Im self employed and they're more like a client. Of course, they were made aware of my unavailability).

As someone said its the old working class thing "keep you head down, work hard, do what the boss says!"

[p123]

Hes getting worse. Had an argument with him again last night.

He still moaning that teletext (on BBC in the uk) is ending and whats he going to do without it. I've already suggested new TV and he looked at me like I was mad. I told him then - "oh well if you're going to prefer keeping thousands in the bank then you'll have to do without".

Hes still going on. Asking me if theres another way. I've said now no way am I wasting my time trying to sort something out for him when, as soon as any mention of spending any money gets involved, he shuts it down.

[p123]

Yet hes still going on about how hes going to miss this?

I don't get it. Is this what narcs want? Me to solve all his problems for him?

I've offered to help but it costs money. He doesn't want to spend money.

Its as if hes got a problem and I've got to find a way to fix it how he wants. We had an argument last week about this about how I wasn't wasting my time if he wasn't willing to spend money. Yeh hes on about it again this week! Nothing has changed OMG!!!!

[nanotech]

Just tell him, if it comes up again. that you've already had a discussion with him  on teletext and you're not going to talk about it further. Just keep repeating that .

[p123]

Just tell him, if it comes up again. that you've already had a discussion with him  on teletext and you're not going to talk about it further. Just keep repeating that .

Yeh did this the other week....

It doesn't make sense to me - having thousands in the bank and it just sitting there and doing without something you really like. I just don't understand why he'd do that. Hes got so much saved its NEVER going to run out. Its impossible So whys it there - "because I don't want to waste it".

Hes got a TV and it works fine - its just a bit old so can't get internet etc. I know what hes thinking - hes got a TV and its working. Buying a newer, better one when you've got something already is the ultimate shame of wasting money. He honestly could not cope with the stress of disposing of something that had such value.

I even said "look we'll sell the old one on ebay - we might get £50". That got him going more - "£50 I paid £200 for that its a good TV". Yes 15 years ago now you've got no chance....... He'll never change.

Perhaps I look at things too simply:-
1. Do I want it? YES
2. Can I afford it? (In Dad case, HELL YES)
But Dad is adding another layer:
3. Can I not spend any money if possible here? (YES in his head!)

[Outsiderchild]

This isn't about the money. He knows that this is a button that he can press that frustrates you.  He doesn't want to solve this so-called problem.  He wants to control your emotions.  He feels anxious at the thought of spending money.  He then involves you in a circular argument and frustrates you.  Which soothes him, makes him feel in control of something.  His payoff isn't in finding a solution, his payoff is in yanking your emotions around. 

I doubt he can verbalize this, but believe me he feels a thrill when he can find a way  to get you to feel HIS anxiety and transfer HIS chaos to you.  Logic isn't going to solve this as he doesn't want it solved, he just wants you upset and focusing your time and energy on him.

Try MC and just detach.  "I don't know, Dad.  You're smart, you'll figure this out."   That sentence should give him pause. But who knows with PD's, he might try another angle, think of a few responses and practice them. Look over WomanInterrupted's conversation non starters she has used with her parents for inspiration. 

[p123]

This isn't about the money. He knows that this is a button that he can press that frustrates you.  He doesn't want to solve this so-called problem.  He wants to control your emotions.  He feels anxious at the thought of spending money.  He then involves you in a circular argument and frustrates you.  Which soothes him, makes him feel in control of something.  His payoff isn't in finding a solution, his payoff is in yanking your emotions around. 

I doubt he can verbalize this, but believe me he feels a thrill when he can find a way  to get you to feel HIS anxiety and transfer HIS chaos to you.  Logic isn't going to solve this as he doesn't want it solved, he just wants you upset and focusing your time and energy on him.

Try MC and just detach.  "I don't know, Dad.  You're smart, you'll figure this out."   That sentence should give him pause. But who knows with PD's, he might try another angle, think of a few responses and practice them. Look over WomanInterrupted's conversation non starters she has used with her parents for inspiration.

Never thought of that..... He does seem to like to shovel problems over to me.
And EVERYTHINg is a problem....