informal parenting agreements starting to unravel

[sevenyears]

So, xh (uocpd) and I had a frustrating meeting today with DD7's social worker (she is a foster child) to discuss financial issues. xh wants to control them, I want to share responsibility. He claims - wrongly - that we are losing out on money/benefits for her. Social worker bought into his false arguments and accusations and told me if I continue holding out on getting a fair solution for our daughter, that it is the equivalent of withholding child support. So much for a neutral arbiter. Part of the reason why she sided with him, is because he is soooo difficult and threatening to cause various problems (for me and for the social agency), and part of the reason she sided with him is because I agreed to settle with him on the 50:50 parenting time since the courts refuse to recognize the problems he is creating for our DS4. (Custody questions for DD fall under the social welfare agency since she is a foster child and questions regarding DS fall under the court system.) Because the courts won't see the problems and I agreed to settle, she no longer believes me.  And, behind the scenes, he is manipulating her. He shared the court custody evaluator report about our son with her in which it says that I ignored DD during the evaluation (of our relations with DS).  The end effect: nothing was resolved for DD7 and most likely, the informal agreements in place about for DS4 will unravel as we resolve those financial issues too because xh will refuse to abide by them in order to pressure me into doing what he wants. :-(   

[hhaw]

I'm sorry it's so scary, seven years.

After years and years in court with PDs I finally realized the PDs can't fool everyone, even though they always fooled or bought off SOMEONE ONE or TWO people in every case. 

In the end,  they pushed and pushed their advantage to the point of being farse and were punished for it soundly by the Judge. 

They lose sight of how others view their conduct.  They lose sight of the fact not everyone will buy their bs.  They lose sight of the fact their manipulations, pushed too far, will be spotted and identified for what it is.

So, document your case well.   Allege only what you can prove.  Never speak of your stbx without compassion.  Never tell anyone what they MUST DO, THINK OR FEEL.... you'll be punished for it if you do, IME.

Don't assume the PDs manipulations won't harm them more than they harm you, bc sometimes that's exactly what happens, IME.   

[Penny Lane]

 

This is so awful and hard, I'm so sorry! You're doing everything right here. I really hope things turn around.

[sevenyears]

Penny and HHaw - thank you. Yes, it this process scary - especially when dealing with the social/child welfare agency, even more than the courts. HHaw, thanks too for your wise advise reminding me not to criticize XH. I think that was the turning point during the discussion about DD's mental health because I commented about his anger. The social worker knows about this and documented it before she helped me to move out. but, that was 1.5 years ago. Now neither the social worker, nor the courts want to hear about it. You're right. I have to remember not to criticize him. A question based on your experience: DD has been complaining this week that I am too forgetful and that I don't listen to her. I believe she has been hearing this from uocpd xh. Indeed, during the meeting with the social worker, he had the custody evaluator report with him and had highlighted their observation that I focussed primarily on DS during the evaluation (because the evaluation was about his custody). I believe that xh showed that part of the report to the social worker after the meeting when he stayed behind to talk to her. I suspect, but cannot prove that uocpd xh has been saying directly or indirectly to DD that I don't listen to her or recognize her needs. How could I go about proving something like that?

[hhaw]

sevenyears:

I don't know how important it is that you don't or do always listen to your child while in the middle of a custody case, a social services case and divorce.

The courts don't generally split hairs like that, IME, even though it FEELS like everything might fall apart if we fail to be perfect.  We don't have to be perfect and the PDs certainly can't be to everyone all the time.  Particularly in the courtroom, IME.

I'd connect more with both children.... really be present with them, look them in the eye, and SEE them as often as I could.

I'd validate dd's feelings, whatever they are, and ask her about them...... why she feels that way.  Ask what you can do to help her feel heard. 

You don't have to be perfect.  No one can be perfect.  The court doesn't expect perfection.  What is the PD asking for, and what are you afraid will happen?   What does your attorney say is typical in your County/State?

What do you want to happen?

The courts tend to split the baby, IME.  That means no one goes away happy, and the children's best interests aren't really a factor, IME.  Something has to happen to get he Court to shift one way or the other.  In our case, the PDs got control of the Court Appointed T and I thought it was the end of the world, my attorney told me to get the kids out of the State bc she'd never seen such a devastating report in her 35 year career of family law practice.  It WAS terrible, to be fair. 

I wasn't supposed to let anyone read that report, but had 2 friends read it anyway, to keep my sanity.  One friend said the report was so over the top biased it would be interpreted as such, and I shouldn't worry, which turned out to be true, but I didn't know for sure at the time.

The Judge in charge of our settlement conferences didn't seem to upset by the report either bc my kiddos were doing well in school, good grades, well adjusted...... there as no "real" reason to change custody or give my In Laws court ordered visitation with my children based on the new Grandparent visitation laws in our old State, which the ILs were banking on.  The thing was, I read every word of the new law and the ILs didn't meet ONE criteria.  Not a one. 

I knew my Judge was fair, bc I'd been told I had the best Judge I could have drawn by an Attorney I trusted from another case.  That helped me calm my attorney down, and get her on board, bc she and the Settlement Judge wanted to give my rights away, and tried at the settlement conference... meaning they wanted me to agree to Court Ordered visitation for the ILs. 

I just couldn't wrap my head around it, and DID agree to supervised visitation WITH a safety net in place.... a T for my children to monitor how visits were going... that T KNEW the PD ILs and would have called them on their toxicity, which they couldn't have kept under control for a moment.

IN any case, the PDs ended up yelling and walking out on what would have been a sweetheart deal for them bc PDs are, IMHE, pathologically unable to agree to anything, and won't TAKE anythiing from us if they can forcefully snatch it away under duress.  The PDs in our case were just so very certain their control over the court appointed T would be the hammer they needed to take whatever they wanted FROM me, which was the goal. 

I didn't see it that way.  I did the math in my head over and over... reached out to other attorneys about their opinions..... asked friends to look at things honestly....... and the PDs had jumped the shark with their manipulation of the T, IMHO, which turned out to be the case in the end.  My instincts were very good, always.  I wish I'd been calm enough to trust those instinct more.

In the end I suspsected the Judge would punish opposing counsel for ruinining her cherry picked T, which might have happened.  I know the Judge punished the T, then punished the ILs by forcing them to pay almost 100K in attorney fees for me.  If I'd been more organized and up to fighting my attorney I could have gotten more AND the cost of fighting the Appeal, which the PDs filed, of course. 

THe PDs shot themselves in the foot by overplaying their hand with a newbie T who didn't know how to do the job she was hired to do, didn't know how to play the game and PRETEND to be somewhat unbiased.... she was completely CRAZY and then we found a letter in her file during a break at trial explaining WHY she as so nuts, and things just kept mounting up against the ILs and that T during the trial. 

It's like.... the PDs don't do ANY trial prep.  They make so many allegations..... they forget what they said then have zero evidence.  What they showed up with were calendars with information like.... what I was wearing during a vacation, what time I woke up that day..... honestly the word "nipples" was used so much by my MIL I was horrified.  She was so focused on MY CLOTHING and body. 

The Judge noted this in the FINAL ORDER then noted the fact MIL didn't mention her relationship with my children ONE TIME... not what she loved about them, what she DID with them when she had time with them, not what she appreciated about their personalities, etc. 

FIL ended up telling the Judge I was a fine mother.... "no complaints ever."  he admitted he wanted to punish me, and filed the suit just to harm me. 

MIL admitted the summer of psych evaluations for my children, which a T testified was detrimental to the girls' mental health, was bad for the girls.  MIL then refused to accept responsibility for her actions and blamed the Judge, which was interesting, but very odd.

FIL lied on the stand over and over, bc he didn't realize we'd show up with all the evidence we needed to show the Judge the truth.  It got to the point where FIL started looking nervously at all the documents my attorney lined up on the jury box rail, and started telling the truth.

The PDs allege many things, mostly things designed to make us APPEAR to be bad people, greedy people, whatever they think their audience will respond to.... then they forget they have nothing to back it up.   I think they mostly depend on us freaking out, running around like chickens with our heads cut off, DOING THEIR WORK FOR THEM.  If we resist...if we stay level.... if we document our case..... the PDs mostly show up with zero evidence, and maybe one expert witness or advocate snowed into saying things that can't be backed up by evidence either, IME.

Like I said.... they push and push and push any advantage without subtlety or ability to gage their entire audience.... usually drawing attention to themselves, not to us (if we can resist sabotaging ourselves.)

What does your attorney say?

AND....  who cares if you focused on your son during an evaluation ABOUT HIM?  Ts say dumb things all the time.  I think Judges are used to them saying stupid things,  honestly.

You can explain that IF it comes up in court.... you "focused on the child you were discussing".  STBX BELIEVES he has something good on you, when he just has a T saying something that's not that important,  given all the facts, IME.   That's it.  Don't get defensive.  Don't jabber on and on.   Give the shortest answer you can... just the humberger.  No bun.  No condiments.  No veggies.  Just the burger and be quiet.  Do not get defensive, ever.  If opposing counsel makes a stupid statement or asks a stupid cruel question..... PLEASE treat it as an opportunity to educate your audience.  Be kind, overtly helpful, super polite and speak slowly.... like you're talking to a nervous bird or child.  If you speak to a child you don't lose your cool.   Yo0u stay level.  You speak with simple words. 

This is verbal jujitsu and you'll look like you're trying to help opposing counsel be a better attorney, and do their job, bc they're not informed... you aren't judging them.  You want them to be a better attorney.  You want them to have the facts so they can do a better job..... that's how you come across, and it's very frustrating for opposing counsel, IME, bc you come across as super level, super informed and super willing to help in any way you possibly can.   Judges are impressed too, IME.

YOu asked how you can prove the PD putting words in Foster dd's mind and mouth..... I don't think it really matters or that you should worry about it.

I think you should stop worrying..... do the best you can with documenting everything YOU CAN document, organize it, then rest, play with the kids, and invest in self care rituals consistently. 

Worrying is a coping strategy we often employ when in court with a PD.  It keeps us pumped up and on high alert..... we don't have to live that way.  We're better off if we don't, IME.

Do what you can, then release the outcome.   That's a coping strategy too, and one our children would do well to see us model for them. 

Empathy for the PD, always. 

If you believe you need an expert witness to counter a negative expert witness... maybe hire one.  You can handle this.   

I just don't see anything that's particularly damaging for you at this time. 

Don't let the PD's confidence in something small make you feel cornered and chased and judged.  You're calm, stable consistent mom, and that's who you'll always be to your children.  Can the PD say that about himself?

Can he prove it?

Good luck,

[Penny Lane]

I know that this feels like an immediate crisis right now and you want to prove you're right. But I think you need to take the long view.

Document what DD says and especially how closely it matches up with your ex's accusations of you. Document that this ONLY came up from her when he started making these allegations in the custody case.

When she says it ask her critical thinking questions. What things have I forgotten recently? What have I not listened to you about? Offer solutions. "How about we have a special mommy and DD date on Friday?" Or start doing structured one on one time with each kid. Even if the allegation is coming from the ex, it can't hurt to be extra attentive (to both kids) with positive time, right?

It's very scary to think that your ex is trashing you to the social worker when you're not there. Is that allowed? Can you insist that you both meet with them together at all times? Can you meet with her privately as well? Not to talk badly about him, but to say "I got the sense that he made some accusations about me the other day, is there anything I can address?"