Several years NC and now this

[Orangeblossom77]

I have not posted for a while but have now been maybe 5 years NC with uPD mum. LC with my En dad (lives separately)

My sibling has been acting like a flying monkey a little as has his wife, my En dad and now even my siblings children (a little)

This has been a struggle and I have been trying to learn how to deal with it as times goes on. It seems to have settled down. I kept saying things like 'that is between me and her' to En dad. They have finally stopped asking. But I have had all sorts, from En dad calling me with her there in the background, to sis-in-law sending negative articles about NC, to my niece giving me 'messages of love' from uPD mum, to letters, then postcards to my children with sad pictures and the like. I have tried my best to ignore it all but it has been hard.

The two things I am struggling with presently post NC are 1. Dealing with En dad. and 2. Dealing with brother's family and their DC

1. En dad. Although he lives apart from her and divorced, he is still very enmeshed. I am sure he passes everything on to her. He recently had a medical drama and went into hospital (not serious and out again now). He called me as his next of kin and have got more involved there. My brother asked me if I wanted to be joint Power of attorney for him and I said no, but I would try and support him in some way if he needed it. En dad is a hoarder. He is also getting older and needing more support. He had carers coming in and he sent them away. However I live quite far away. I am struggling with FOG here.

2. Dealing with brother's family and children. They seem very keen for their children to be close with mine / cousins. However they also seem to share quite a bit of family stuff with their children . At one point they were letting their daughter go stay with uPD mum (but think they stopped after she asked not to). I get that it would be nice for the children to be friends, but it seems to stem from my sister in laws own lack of cousins herself. there seems to be an idealised idea about this. If we don't agree to meet on their terms, I get told their children are upset as wanted to see their cousins. I get asked to go on holiday with them, when their children are present and it is hard to say no, under pressure like that. At the same time I feel sad that the children are being affected by past family stuff. In my gut I find it very hard and want to totally back off. But I am wavering as maybe in the future they may become friends, the elderly parents will not be around forever and then maybe it will be easier.

So that is basically where I'm at at the moment. I am feeling quite overwhelmed by it all especially these visits by my brother's family. They want to come stay and go on long walks together. They (brother and wife) keep asking me about things like my work, if / why I drive / don't drive, if I 'feel at home' where I live now (I get these same questions each time) and I find it all a bit intrusive. In fact, I wonder if the children are used a bit as a emotional way of making me have these visits. But maybe that is just paranoid. Why would they be so invested like that? Trying to keep her happy? I am not sure. It just all feels icky.

[TwentyTwenty]

Hi, I'm sorry you are going through this; and I'll offer my opinion.

Your uPDm is still abusing and assaulting you by way of proxy via your relatives. If it were myself, I'd declare clear, concise boundaries that will not be tolerated for the health and well being of my family. If those boundaries were not honored, then I'd go NC with those offenders as well, at least until such a time as they were willing to accept my reasonable boundaries.

I think at some point you have to consider how much damage you're willing to allow into your family by way of these assaults.

[Orangeblossom77]

Yes it does all feel a bit manipulative. My sister in law seems to be getting involved as well. I'm surprised at that but wonder if it might be that she feels the pressure of feeling she needs to step in as they get older as they live closer to them. Or wants me to 'help' her husband more. As the eldest daughter there can be this expectation you are the 'main carer' sometimes.

Something I noticed was happening this last visit, was firstly my dad had the medical drama as my brother and family were on the way to my home. So first I had those two things going on at once. Hospital calling me as the 'next of kin' and then my brother's family turning up asking me questions and the like. Something they seem to do is minimise any problems and health concerns in my FOC and in laws who I'm close to and live nearby. Saying things like 'oh they have their daughter' (yes but their daughter has an ill child to support) or 'yes but they are married so have more support (not in some ways as they both have health concerns). Whereas I feel that some of my parents stuff is through choice not accident. So we obviously have different opinions there. All their concerns are for their DC and my parents, even though to my sister they are 'in laws' as well. Anyway all a bit strange

Another thing is the questions, my brother every time time I see him starts on about my job / driving status (have children and they are my main focus) It's a bit weird / none of his business. I don't ask him to justify his life choices. I just try and medium chill these comments and change the subject. He seems to have got quite 'thinking he is right / moral' and this is a change from when he was younger.

And then there is this issue with the cousins 'friendship' and being told they wanted to see my children, if I don't agree to time with them. I feel this again is a bit manipulative. But I could be wrong with this maybe they do just want to be friends.

I can stay my distance with my dad but I'm unsure how to go forward with this. I don't want my children hearing in future, "oh, your mum wouldn't let us see you" or whatever. But on the other hand don't want them getting sucked in too. My gut is screaming stay away from them all! and to be honest their children seemed pretty demanding, just interested in the computer games and not really interacting with mine except to make them fix stuff for them or help them (mine are a bit older) mine escaped after a while into the other room!

Oh I can see it, first I would be the 'mean one' cutting off my poor old mum, then on top cutting off their poor DC as well! 

So then I wondered maybe I should just ask my children what they think about seeing the cousins again and they said 'we don't mind' which is polite way of saying 'we will if you want us to' I think. So no strong opinion either way really.

I'm also feeling angry that maybe without the background / parents issues maybe this would not be such an issue - this cousins thing. But then again even without it I feel this pressure is a bit much. I mean we also have two other sets of cousins on my husband's side and that is not as forced. They just tend to see each other now and again and no pressure to be friends etc from the parents. Whereas with his one it seems like 'because they are cousins they should be friends.' This seems to be driven by the sister in law who had no cousins herself so wants this for her children. She does have her own sibling with children but they emigrated abroad.

So anyway in the spirit of 'you can't change what happens but only change how you respond' I'm trying to think ahead as to how to deal with all this stuff in the future. There was some fallout from the hospital stay for my dad as my both wanted them to have called him not be. Fine, so next time that happens I can tell them, by brother is next of kin / power of attorney, please call him and have his number to hand. Also talked with my husband and both felt maybe a brief phone call to my dad now and again might be OK. Plan 1. But with the cousins I'm less sure. At least have some breathing space as they usually suggest meeting up school holidays such as Christmas and Summer and we have just 'done' one visit. Their children have asked for the my children's mobile numbers and been calling them (just a bit) and the mother was talking about Skype. But mine are quite busy and will see what happens with this.

[FogDawg]

Your uPDm is still abusing and assaulting you by way of proxy via your relatives. If it were myself, I'd declare clear, concise boundaries that will not be tolerated for the health and well being of my family. If those boundaries were not honored, then I'd go NC with those offenders as well, at least until such a time as they were willing to accept my reasonable boundaries.

I am in complete agreement. Being prodded with the same questions each visit, and the additional guilt-tripping with mention of the children, is not normal. There is nothing wrong with setting boundaries, including refusing to share information that you would rather they not have, and expecting them to be honored if the family/relatives would like to remain in contact with you. Look out for your own health, Orangeblossom77.

[Orangeblossom77]

Thanks- it is the children that does get to me, the feeling that they are suffering because of the others. It is a bit like another poster said where a (lovely) person on the outsides of the family got in touch, so hard. Because you have lost trust. It feels like a hook pulling me in. My SIL seems very controlling. My brother says exactly her thoughts, just as my dad used to do with my mum (still does really). (I remember one day, he said 'she kept me quiet for 20 years') so sadly that same pattern seems to be repeating itself there. Along with
the pattern of the children hearing / being too involved in the adult stuff. I found that quite damaging as a child

I also had this experience myself which is playing on my mind. As a child a cousin came to visit and she told me 'my family don't see yours anymore because your mum kicked them out in the snow one winter when you were a baby'. It made me feel really bad and guilty. So there is that. And we never saw her again. I'm not 'kicking anyone out' though. 

So you can see how this can make you think. What if this comes back on my children in the same way? They are not that close or friendly. But I don't like the idea of them being told something like 'your mum stopped us seeing you and we were sad' 

I'm not being manipulated though. It would be different if my children liked them lots and were close friends. But they aren't. I'm also not too keen on the behaviour to be honest. They aren't polite and are quite demanding. The boy especially bosses mine around and can be quite rude. Then other is girl and at the age of early teens so bit tricky there also. Which will only get more so as they get older.

I guess, they will change lots the next few years into teenage years anyway and want to do more of their own things anyway so that will be easier anyway. No-one wants to be told to go on family holidays etc as teens, we never did anyway. They will be past the age of sleepover parties, playdates and parks (well mine anyway)

Another telling thing for me if my husband found their visit very stressful and hard, to the extent that we skipped meeting one day. So, that is something to consider also. Those kind of meet ups where the children 'play' and adults talk can be hard in general I find. Especially if there are behaviour issues. My eldest tends to escape the demands and come hang out with the adults and do jobs, and youngest just goes kind of quiet. And yes the probing questions.

So yes I agree and when they next try to arrange something I think I will say no. 'busy' etc. At least they live far away so that makes things a little easier in a way. I get on with my brother ok on his own so I feel a bit sad that this may be the end of that also. if I don't make an effort. We'll see. Sometimes I guess all you can do is reinforce boundaries and see how they react. I mean if he reacts in a cross / upset way and goes along with SIL I know I have lost him too.

Another thing - yes we also have two more sets of cousins on my husband's side and none of this guilt tripping or demands to see them goes on there. It is much more relaxed. More like if husband and I want a night to ourselves they might babysit for us and see the children at the same time. It is also more relaxed with the in laws that side also. I notice sister in law (above) was commenting that I seem close with my mother in law and see them most weeks, in a surprised kind of way. It's odd, I don't know anything about SIL and her parents and wouldn't dare get involved there.

[FogDawg]

I'm not being manipulated though. It would be different if my children liked them lots and were close friends. But they aren't. I'm also not too keen on the behaviour to be honest. They aren't polite and are quite demanding. The boy especially bosses mine around and can be quite rude. Then other is girl and at the age of early teens so bit tricky there also. Which will only get more so as they get older.

Another telling thing for me if my husband found their visit very stressful and hard, to the extent that we skipped meeting one day. So, that is something to consider also. Those kind of meet ups where the children 'play' and adults talk can be hard in general I find. Especially if there are behaviour issues. My eldest tends to escape the demands and come hang out with the adults and do jobs, and youngest just goes kind of quiet. And yes the probing questions.

So yes I agree and when they next try to arrange something I think I will say no. 'busy' etc. At least they live far away so that makes things a little easier in a way. I get on with my brother ok on his own so I feel a bit sad that this may be the end of that also. if I don't make an effort. We'll see. Sometimes I guess all you can do is reinforce boundaries and see how they react. I mean if he reacts in a cross / upset way and goes along with SIL I know I have lost him too.

Another thing - yes we also have two more sets of cousins on my husband's side and none of this guilt tripping or demands to see them goes on there. It is much more relaxed. More like if husband and I want a night to ourselves they might babysit for us and see the children at the same time. It is also more relaxed with the in laws that side also. I notice sister in law (above) was commenting that I seem close with my mother in law and see them most weeks, in a surprised kind of way. It's odd, I don't know anything about SIL and her parents and wouldn't dare get involved there.

There you go - if your children do not really care about seeing their cousins, and are being mistreated by one of them, it is best to cut contact. I am glad that you can see the situation clearly and not have it colored by what you experienced. Based on their actions, neither child sounds happy when they are together with the relatives. If even your husband is feeling stressed by the interaction, there goes another point in the 'adios' category, I would say.

If your brother cares about you, he will find a way to make the relationship work in spite of the boundaries.

The cousins on your husband's side sound far more healthy to be around; they appear to be good people and are the ones to invest effort in, IMO. That is kind of funny about your sister-in-law. It should not be such a shock to find that humans will generally put forth more effort if they are treated well.

[Orangeblossom77]

Yes, it makes me think, 'to have a friend you need to be a friend'. It is not teaching children good things to feel people can treat you badly or you can just be demanding and rude, and then huff / be sad if people don't want to see you / them...but you just have to 'suck it up' is it? friendship needs to be earnt.

[Mintstripes]

They are simply trying to manipulate you. I wouldn't trust them at all. Children are innocent yes, but you have to protect yourself and your family. They are training their children to be flying monkeys anyway.

I recently had a situation with my GC bro. I was NC with him then VLC. He was in town (I moved far away) and I agreed to a visit. It also felt "icky" to me. I had a nagging feeling he was still a flying monkey. Weeks later, I found out he had told our parents (NC 4 years, En mother and UNpd father) and even shared photos of me I had asked not to. I decided to go into the new year completely NC. He is my only sibling but unfortunately also very unsafe.

I think you should trust that icky feeling. It's your intuition telling you that they aren't safe. I got major red flags at the part where you said they were asking you all sorts of questions. Sounds like they are ticking off a list of things to report back to you NC mother! Without a doubt. That's the thing with flying monkeys; they're never genuinely interested in you. Their loyalties lie with the abusers and they will do almost anything to remain in their good graces, including betraying you. Don't be fooled.

Be kind to yourself and know that "no" is a complete sentence. Stop the visits and see how freeing that feels.

[Orangeblossom77]

Yes, they ask me for photos as well. I guess they do the same.

[Mintstripes]

Yes, they ask me for photos as well. I guess they do the same.

Bingo. It's so unpleasant to deal with. We have to protect ourselves!

[Orangeblossom77]

Another odd thing which has happened since NC is this sister in law has befriended an old friend of mine. No other connection apart from she lives near to them but is a close friend of mine. Although I do trust this friend I feel odd about this too. It seems strange to me to do this. It just all gives me the odd feelings and I guess I will trust my instinct and stay well clear of it all. And ignore this guilting as well

[Mintstripes]

Another odd thing which has happened since NC is this sister in law has befriended an old friend of mine. No other connection apart from she lives near to them but is a close friend of mine. Although I do trust this friend I feel odd about this too. It seems strange to me to do this. It just all gives me the odd feelings and I guess I will trust my instinct and stay well clear of it all. And ignore this guilting as well

That does not seem like a coincidence at all. Manipulators often try to triangulate or gather information about you from third parties.
My ex and my NC parents were in cahoots after I filed for divorce. After everything I told him in confidence about them during our marriage, it was the ultimate betrayal that he would contact them to try and gain sympathy and get information about me. I think he eventually stopped when even he was getting sick of my covert narc mom calling him every day, crying. Karma! But yes... Toxic people always band together to try and further hurt you. You must be a titanium wall!

[Orangeblossom77]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, it is bizarre what they will go to, I don't quite understand it, how they can go to so much effort but there we go. Maybe they need more stuff going on in their own lives to focus on!  In my case it is my brother's wife so not even part of the FOO really, However seems to be made of the same stuff. Hmm.

Yes, I think going with intuition helps also. if it feels 'icky'- maybe our bodies respond in a way. Being NC has helped me, and I'm not being sucked in again. by extension.

It's taken me weeks to recover from the recent visit which felt like an intrusion, the questions etc so planning to just say no to future visits and deal worth he fallout then. Even the thought makes me stressed but I guess I will try and handle it the best I can. It is sad my sibling seems to be repeating the same patterns as my parents but I guess that is what happens if you stay enmeshed.