Gahhhh - bills again

[Penny Lane]

We just found out that BM hasn't paid any medical bills for about a year. Pretty much since they settled their last court case. She's also been hiding some bills from DH, so he owes a bit and she owes ~$1,000. He's going to pay his bit today. She won't discuss this at all with DH and it seems that she has no intention of paying these bills.

I guess this isn't surprising per se, but I'm disappointed. I don't know what solutions there are, other than going back to court again. He's documenting all her financial transgressions and her unwillingness to work with him in any way or do any of the basics of coparenting. I hope a judge would see how serious this is and give control of the finances to H. Or at least order her to pay it! He's going to pay somewhat of the long game, try to take care of ROFR issues in court and then come back to this in a month or two if she hasn't resolved it. (But the reality is that she's had all year to resolve it - this is just when we found out. Presumably she knew all along that she wasn't paying the bills, and we have proof she was aware the bills existed because H had to go around her to obtain the bills and then he sent her copies once he'd received them).

As it stands I worry that the kids' medical care is in jeopardy. Hopefully the doctor's office won't stop treating the kids but surely they won't accept bills going unpaid indefinitely?

The only bright spot in all this is that because she has worked so hard to repeatedly take DH's information off of the forms, he is not on the hook for this. I suppose if the doctor decides to sue them they could go after him - but in that case he would be able to show that there is a court order that says she has to pay.

I suppose there is one other bright spot, if you can call it that, which is that BM is behaving SO badly that it creates a very good record for DH if he does end up going back to court with her. But I'd rather she just ... not behave badly.

[HotCocoa]

If he's paying his share, than that is all he should do.  Everything else is on her.  If the kids lose their medical, make sure he can pick up medical for them right away and put them on his plan. 

imo, I would not email her about this up front.  She already knows she's behind.  She may be doing this to get some sick sort of attention from him. 
I agree with you, it stinks, but I had to put out a lot of fires by picking up the slack in my own way. 
Yeah, It cost money on my part, but just so my kids were protected, regardless of their father. 
I got nasty emails afterwards, but in those, I always stated clearly and concisely why I did what I did. 
"you failed to pay the children's medical bills and insurance and they lost their coverage, I had no choice but to pick up medical for the children so they are covered with medical insurance moving forward." 
Don't apologize for it and don't say anything badly about her in any email, just, these are the facts, period. 

[Penny Lane]

So then what did you do? Did you go to court so that he had to pay for some of the insurance? Or did you just eat the cost? Did you pay back his unpaid medical bills or did those just go unpaid forever?

[HotCocoa]

He was required in court to pay for some of the medical bills.  He was supposed to carry medical for the children, he kept threatening to cut them off, so the next time my medical came up, I put them on my insurance.  I pay for it all now and he makes a lot more money than me. 
But he liked to be able to hold it over my head at all times so my solution was...taking over.  Anything he could lord over me, I tried to take over, for my own mental health and his threatening and increasingly volatile behavior.
It would be nice monetarily if he would do what is required, but that is not going to happen and I just had to face that and move forward.  It may cost, but it may also be worth the peace. 

[athene1399]

Medical bills are a touchy subject for me (as they frustrate me to no end), but I will try not to go off on a tangent.

If you (H) are following the court order and paying your share, then nothing can be done unless that order is changed. If the doctors stopped seeing the kids due to unpaid medical expenses, then discuss with an L if you have enough evidence to change the current agreement. Until that happens, it may be best to ride it out IMO. If BM owes that much money and H has been paying his half (that he is aware of), then that's all on her.

SO was ordered to pay BM and not the bills directly (if the bill was in her name). I bet you can guess where the money didn't go. But we made sure we had a paper trail showing he was paying his half to BM (he got official bank notes or whatever they are called where you get a money order check from the bank and they mail it to whoever you put down). He also made sure BM would text him when she received the money order in the mail.

You can only control you. Until you have enough evidence to have the courts change who pays the bills up front, it's best to just let it play out. That way you will have the evidence needed to change the order (IMO) when/if the doctors start refusing to see the kids. Like "We're paying our half of what we are made aware of; BM is not paying hers and the bill is in her name. Sometimes she leaves H off the contact information and he doesn't even know there's a bill, so it all goes unpaid. Now the doctors won't see the kids..." Like it isn't a problem until it's affecting the kids. If they can't get treated, that is a big deal IMO.

For the bills we've paid upfront that BM hasn't reimbursed us for, we just ate the cost.  We tell her what she owes and then wait for the sob story of why she can't pay her half  to roll in. We decided it wasn't worth the hassle of paying an L and going aback to court. It is what it is. And it's less frustrating IMO to pay for it ourselves. So we try to take SD to any doctor appointment she needs. If BM takes her, there's too much to stress over on our end.

Maybe ask an L how you guys can prove that BM isn't passing all the billing info on to you. You can clearly prove H pays his half, but I am not sure how to go about proving she isn't always sharing bill info with H. Hopefully it's easy to prove. Maybe it's as easy as if you go to court, BM has to prove she is sharing the info, and if she can't then it's clear what is going on. I would just hate for her to say in court H isn't pay his half on the ones he doesn't actually know about (and leaving that last part off).

[Penny Lane]

Thanks to you both. This really helped me calm down. I get stuck in what's right/fair. It's very frustrating that the kids' medical bills are in collections and there's nothing DH can do about it! But, you're right, at this point it isn't really our problem, it's her problem. Ultimately it COULD become the kids' problem and therefore H's, but no sense stressing about it until then (easier said than done).

H did the math last time they were in court, and it was worth the money to pay the lawyer (even though it was like $10,000) and get BM to pay for the kids being on his health insurance, vs to just pay for it and eat the cost. I think he'll probably do some similar math around medical bills - at this point since we're in for ~10 more years of this, it's probably worth it for him to go to court and change the order vs just eating the cost of her half of the bills. I'm not looking forward to that but BM might force his hand.

I think it will be pretty easy to prove that she's not sharing bills with DH because he's sent 5+ emails in the last year that say "I'm not getting bills, I can't add myself to the account, only you can add me to the account, will you please do that and also send me the bills you've received" and she either refuses or ignores it.

She's in a really bad place right now, ramping up the harassment of DH and getting weirdly involved with the kids' activities. She's also been doing a bunch of other stuff that is slightly bizarre, like, she hasn't used the shared calendar in years and she went through and put a whole bunch of unimportant stuff in it. And she's been replying to all on the teachers' emails to all the parents (Think like, Teacher to all the parents: "Reminder, there's a field trip tomorrow!" BM to the teacher along with all the parents: "Thanks, we're excited!" but she does it with every. single. email. so these parents have like 6 emails from her in the last week, all of which don't say anything substantive.) It sounds innocuous when I say it like that but these kinds of things usually correspond with a bad period for her. In the past year our strategy has been to try to channel her energy into productive stuff (like, you want to be involved in the kids' lives? Great! Let's sign them up for summer camp or take them to that specialist we've been meaning to do). But we can't do anything that costs money because we don't want to add any expenses before she pays the doctor's bills.

H's counselor recommended that when he gets stuck in a stress loop about BM that he focus on what he's grateful for. And it's been like a total 180, he's been so happy about everything we have going on. I'm going to try to channel some of that - it's definitely a better way to live than to stress about what might be coming next!

[athene1399]

PL,
I also get hung up on what is right/fair. That's what drive me most nuts I guess. But I have been working on accepting it will never be fair, we just have to work towards what is best. Maybe putting it in perspective can help, like other things in life (aside from the BM/PD situations) also aren't fair and I don't freak out as much over that. It is what it is.

However, that being said, it is frustrating as all hell. I don't want to diminish that.

And she's been replying to all on the teachers' emails to all the parents (Think like, Teacher to all the parents: "Reminder, there's a field trip tomorrow!" BM to the teacher along with all the parents: "Thanks, we're excited!" but she does it with every. single. email.

I don't think this is innocuous at all. I know our BM ramps up the "I'm such a good, caring mom" facade when she's not doing well. Like she tries harder to project the fake image when she's feeling low (disclaimer that I can't know how she feels/thinks, but I'm assuming the behavior is some type of projection). So I can understand your unease. When this happens, I've been reminding myself that we've been through some pretty rough patches with BM and we always work though it and it eventually ends. Like "last time x happened we figured it out. I'm doing y to prepare for the worst. it will be ok."

I'm so glad the grateful list is working for H! I should try that. I do sometimes focus on what is going well and that helps me, too. It's kind of similar.

[Penny Lane]

Last night I dreamed that I cornered BM and worked out compromises with her on all the things she's screwing up. Like I MADE her understand how awful and toxic she's acting, and how she should change.

I guess I need to do some more radical acceptance work.

[Associate of Daniel]

One way that I cope with the fair/unfair aspect and the unwillingness of the pds to coparent, is to pretend that they're not in the picture at all.

If they weren't around I'd have to do/pay for everything.  So I just assume that I will have to do/pay for everything.

I guess that's a form of radical acceptance.  It's certainly helped with my stress levels.

I'm now in the situation where no child support has to be paid by either of us.  I'm roughly $800/month worse off. (I'm losing child support and government assistance due the change in ds's living arrangement and the disparity between my income and my uNPD exH's.) That's about 2 months' worth of food/groceries.

Over the years uNPDexH has stated that school costs should be paid out of the child support that he gave me and that I should pay for any medical appointments that ds attended when he was with me.

It will be interesting to see if he sticks to his own precedents, now that he is "primary carer".

But I feel bad for not contributing. I try to remember that I pay for the costs of having ds on weekends and half the holidays, but I feel I should contribute more.

Not that I currently have anything more.  I'm essentially now living just above the so called poverty line.

UNPD exH earns roughly $60,000 more than me and lives with an uNPD woman who is likely earning more than him.

AOD

[eyesopen]

I know our BM ramps up the "I'm such a good, caring mom" facade when she's not doing well. Like she tries harder to project the fake image when she's feeling low (disclaimer that I can't know how she feels/thinks, but I'm assuming the behavior is some type of projection).

I don't want to hijack the discussion, but I wanted to highlight this comment because it really rang true for the situation I'm in right now.  stbxw is dealing with moving out, pending divorce, self-created problems with her FOO, on antibiotics for an STD because she slept around, among other things.  But she's on instagram/facebook/etc showing off all kinds of pics of her playing with DD.  She's not normally putting our daughter on social media, has even gone on rants about how she hates everyone that posts pics of themselves with their families, yet that's exactly what she's doing right now.  It totally makes sense that she's trying to project a fake positive image when inside she feels nothing but turmoil, stress, and emotional pain.  I hadn't thought of it that way before, but now it's clear as day.  Ok, back to the original bills discussion.

[Penny Lane]

I do not mind the hijack at all because this is a large part of what I'm frustrated about.

BM stops paying medical bills. She knows she messed up. But instead of fixing it, she convinces herself she's a very active and good parent because she is emailing teachers constantly, or whatever. It's funny you point out the hypocrisy about social media. Because the last time we saw BM with the kids she made them give her hugs, like it was NOT a choice. DH later told me that she used to be (as we are) the kind of person who really strongly feels that kids shouldn't have to hug, kiss or otherwise touch people they don't want to. I guess her principles don't apply when it's a matter of feeling insecure and forcing the kids to help her reassure herself that she really is great.

In fact, when she starts getting really aggressive about these little things, things she wouldn't normally care about (demanding that she be the one to schedule doctors appointments is another example off the top of my head, or accusing H of being a bad parent for whatever reason) DH used to always say "what is she trying to distract me from?" But now I actually think it's more like "what is she trying to distract HERSELF from?" What failure is she trying to convince herself isn't actually that bad?

AOD, I have made that point to DH. And it really does help. But in this instance we are WORSE OFF than if she didn't exist at all. We would just pay for it and the kids would not be in collections. I suppose H could start paying for all of it, but I think his plan is a good one. But it requires us to wait and play the long game, and patience is NOT my strong suit!

[athene1399]

DH used to always say "what is she trying to distract me from?" But now I actually think it's more like "what is she trying to distract HERSELF from?" What failure is she trying to convince herself isn't actually that bad?

This is a good point. i always saw it as she's doing the smoke and mirrors routine to hide what is really going on from us, but It's probably more to hide it from herself. LIke I feel she throws a hissy fit to distract us when she knows she's doing wrong or wants us to give in, but when when she's talking something up it's usually when things are about to fall apart. Like she can't come to terms with it. For example, years ago she was talking up a relationship with her finance, how great they were, how they were getting married for all the right reasons, how well he treated her... then the next week they broke up. So I wonder if she knew it was coming and this "false reality" that she reports is her way of coping for the time being.

It's just frustrating when it's "look at what a great parent I am" when that's not really happening. I always remind myself that the people that matter to me know how much we do/did for SD. The people that know SO know he isn't "an abusive, deadbeat dad". So maybe try to focus on what you know to be true instead of her false narrative. And probably how aggravated the parents are getting over her responding to everyone all the time. Like that is kind of funny IMO. She thinks it's making her look good and they're all probably like "It's this chick again. Why does she keep responding all?" Sometimes seeing things like that help me to feel better too. Like are they really buying her facade? and if they are, it won't last.

And with the patience, I feel better when I am doing something. So in your case I would organize our evidence or whatever. Even if it's pointless work, just to feel I am doing something that will help our end game. Or if you don't want to know about it until H says it's time to go to court, maybe ask him to keep you out of the loop until then. I know breaks from BM have helped you in that past (if I am remembering correctly). Then try not to worry until something can be done.

And I sometimes dream BM is living in my house and I can't get her to leave. I think that means she is occupying my thoughts too much. It's good you're paying attention to the signs in your dreams. Mine didn't make sense to me until reading about yours. Thank you for sharing!

[Penny Lane]

I think one major problem is that she's about to break up with her boyfriend, and one of the things that makes me think this is because she is trying to convince DH that they're getting married. It's easy to assume that it's about him or about us, since we just got married and/or she wants him to be jealous. But when I think about it, it's much more likely that she's feeling insecure about their relationship and she's trying to convince herself that it's solid. But the stress of the imminent breakup is also causing her to act especially badly.

One thing that makes our (the adults) lives easier but the kids' lives worse is that the other parents seem to be onto her. There are a couple parents who seem to refuse to even engage with her at all - like if they're trying schedule a playdate, they won't even entertain doing it during BM's time. We don't know what happened but it must've been pretty bad, right? And every year it seems there are more parents who work to avoid her. The only people who seem to believe her are the people who've never met H, like her neighbors or her various boyfriends.

The other thing is that she freaked out at one of the teachers at the beginning of the year and has had a couple outbursts since then. So I'm pretty confident at least this teacher but frankly probably all the teachers/staff see what's going on here. That's been helpful because they'll contact DH when it's clear that BM is cutting him out of important communication.

DH and I talked about him paying all the bills, asking her for reimbursement, and then when she doesn't pay him back just take her to court for not paying HIM back. That's kind of a last-ditch attempt, he's not going to do it quite yet.

[athene1399]

They may break up, or they may not. Maybe just cross that bridge wen you get there. It probably won't be pretty, but worrying about it before it happens will just be wasted energy IMO. That being said, I would worry about it too, but I think it's best to try to not worry. I can come up with a thousand terrible things BM could do or has done and worry about them, but maybe only a few of them will actually happen. I know I get so stuck on "what if", but I think I just spin my wheels worrying becasue I can't do much until it actually happens. So I'm trying to focus that energy on thing I can do.

That is sad that kids don't have play dates at BM's, but they can have them with you guys or at their friend's houses. And if something did happen, by the parents not engaging with her now that may help to prevent more drama. Like she can't argue with them in front of the kids if they aren't talking to her. So in that regard, it could be better for the kids. It sucks their friends' parents won't make play dates on BM's time, but maybe there was something negative going on that isn't now since they're removed from that situation. If that makes sense.

DH can always do that as a last resort if the doctors start refusing to see the kids. It could give you some peace of mind that that is an option.

[Penny Lane]

I'm not so worried about them breaking up. In fact I selfishly (I know! this is mean!) am somewhat looking forward to it. She has decided that the boyfriend and I are in a competition and every single thing I do for/with the kids, he has to do too. The kids mentioned I helped them with homework, the next week she emailed the teacher and dropped in that her boyfriend was helping with homework. (Definitely not necessary given the context, and I don't really believe it even happened). I go to an activity, her boyfriend goes to the next one. She's been lecturing DH about how her boyfriend is "at least as important to the kids" as I am - even though they've been together for like a year and he's the latest of a whole string of boyfriends she's brought into their lives. The other thing is that when she breaks up with him she'll probably find a new boyfriend pretty quickly and she is at her very best when she's in a new relationship. This guy is fine and I don't have anything against him - but after seeing however many boyfriends pass through the kids' lives it's hard to imagine that he's going to be around forever, whether they break up now or not.

[athene1399]

I don't think that's mean at all. Actually when the last guy left BM we were excited for him. Like good for him that he was able to get away from her.

And I can understand how the competition would get old quick.