Using "Fair" to Manipulate

[Wilderhearts]

I've recently been watching these videos by CIA hostage negotiator Chris Voss, because so much of my work has to do with negotiation, sometimes with executives who are Trump-esque in their pathological lying abilities.

He calls "fair" the F-bomb of manipulative negotiation tactics, and it's one that my old uOCPD roommate used frequently.  It was her favourite bargaining chip any time she wanted us to comply with her standards - we should do more work because it's "fair." Honestly it may have been her favourite word.   It made me so bleeping angry every time.  But I'm happy to see it laid out as the manipulation it is.

Voss writes:
In fact, of the three ways that people drop this F-bomb, only one is positive.

1. "I only want what's fair." The most common use is a judo-like defensive move that destabilizes the other side. This manipulation usually takes the form of something like, "We just want what's fair."

Think back to the last time someone made this implicit accusation of unfairness to you, and I bet you'll have to admit that it immediately triggered feelings of defensiveness and discomfort. These feelings are often subconscious and often lead to an irrational concession.

From: https://www.fastcompany.com/3060582/the-one-word-that-can-transform-your-negotiating-skills

The tactic he has for dealing with sociopaths is to often repeat the last one to three words they've said (amazing grey rock technique!  you can acknowledge somebody without engaging this way!).  In this case, he just repeats "fair?"  God I wish I had known about that.  (Mind you he sounds friendly the whole time - it doesn't come off as a challenge, just a curious inquiry.)  My uOCPD roommate never would have been able to provide a rational explanation of what made her demands fair - she'd have been caught in her own darn trap.

But seriously, I still get a literal wave of nausea and a little black-out rage when I hear that word.  It's become such a trigger.  Not really sure how to move past that.

[Pepin]

This is a good article and I will definitely be incorporating this word into my external vocabulary.  It is interesting that I often think about fair and unfair inside my head when I replay tapes with PDs.  But I never thought to square up and use it in their presence.  For example when DH brings up the dreaded family reunion and I don't want to go I could say something like: How is it fair that I should have to go when everyone else keeps to themselves?  How is it fair that I spend my time like this and who does it benefit?  How is it fair that I tag along next to you when you spend the entire time talking to your mother not in English?  Yeah....it's mindless.  DH used to retaliate when I didn't want to go see his FOO by saying things like: But, at least everyone will get to SEE you and my mother hasn't SEEN you in a long time.  SEE?     Oh, that's funny.  DH can just pull up a picture of me on his phone instead.  That is more than fair rather than me wasting my time...I'm sure everyone would be happier...except DH.  Welp, that's his problem, not mine.

[Jsinjin]

A couple of things because my uOCPDw is obsessed with fairness:

First, a close friend of mine was former military and went into special forces kind of stuff and his military groups mantra was "fair does not exist" which I try to repeat to my kids.    Justice can exist, kindness can exist, anger, hatred, cheating, winning, losing etc. but fair doesn't really happen.   

I've found that the OCPD individual uses the pretext of fairness to either keep from making a tough decision or delay a process indefinitely.    My spouse is a local politician and it is common in legislation to try and use language and rules to make all fair to the point that they can repeatedly table things while never accomplishing anything.

In our home the result is that a parent can't be an arbitrary benevolent dictator and the kids suffer.    My parents had swift justice for lack of judgement or failure to get chores done which could include loss of privileges, loss of car use, loss of access to computer or video games or restriction from going out with friends (grounding).    These punishments were Swift and without arbitration and we're perhaps "unfair" to the teenager but had the desired effect:   get home before curfew, unload the dishwasher when asked, turn in your homework.    As a kid in the house you never felt  oppressed and you felt respect for the parent who never applied the punishments with mean spirit but could be quite arbitrary with one kid getting less or more and you might see your particular punishment as less fair (nothing ever corporal or what I would consider abusive).    In our home if I try to meter out justice like "you can't talk to your parents in that tone and with that language, give me your phone now and I'll let you know when you get it back" my spouse stops that and in front of the children discusses how that is not fair because we didn't outline that with them ahead of time.   

The result is arguments over the perception of fairness in all disuptes in our home because the kids have been taugjt that this is how to criticize and debate.   

A few times when my spouse has been out for time on travel I've met the kids at the door with the requirement that the internet is off and I'm holding phoknes until all chores and homework are completed    within two days our life and Harmony is so. Much more rewarding and the kids even point out how much less stress there is.   Yet when she comes home the fairness doctrine comes back into play.

[SparkStillLit]

I always said to the kids who tried to use "fair" against me: "the fair comes once a year and you buy tickets". I believed in natural consequences I guess. If you were sassy, then you lost some sort of privilege related to communication. If you acted like a wild animal inside, you got banished to outside till you could be civilized.  That kind of thing. If you acted ridiculous in the car I wouldn't operate it, and if it were safe to do so, I might even kick you out of it until you straightened yourself out. (This resulted in something HILARIOUS. A cat bolted across the road and I slammed on the brakes. The kids didn't see the cat, and they said in unison "we weren't doing ANYTHING!!!!!") Updh never interfered in any of this, but he didn't use it, either.  His methods were and are to blow a gasket at random and unpredictable things, mood dependent.
Now let me tell you, I tried that repeat the last three words thing to updh???? Holy hell people, NEVER. AGAIN. Came UNGLUED. So word to the wise, that doesn't work in all scenarios.

[Wilderhearts]

Pepin, I also just started considering retorting with "but what about what's fair to me?".  Even when I play scenarios in my head about someone denying my reasonable requests because it isn't in the absolute best interest of so-and-so (or themselves), I think bringing in what's in my best interest is a legit move.  Because we also deserve consideration, and their version of "fair" tends to eclipse that.

Yeah Jsinjin, there is no objective "fair."  I think that's why it's not really in my lexicon, and just exists as a trigger word for me.  I think a lot of us who grew up with PD'd FOO intuitively understand that "fair" does not exist.  Your example of "Swift" justice being dealt to kids not necessarily being "fair" but being necessary makes me think of how closely related "fairness" is to boundaries and consequences.  It almost seems your spouse is afraid that if the kids consistently experience consequences for bad behaviour that she will too, and that standard can't be set in the house.  It seems classically OCPD to me that expectations and consequences must all be "outlined ahead of time."  Our OCPD roommate would regularly call house meetings to essentially facilitate us outlining our expectations and boundaries, which is admittedly more adaptive and functional of her, but not reasonable for a standard roommate relationship.  They just experience so much anxiety when anything or anyone in their environment isn't completely predictable, and they don't seem to be able to predict natural consequences.

Kids need boundaries and consistency more than anything - they may not "like" it but they're happier for it.  I can really see how waffling over "fair" destroys that.  Good on you for giving them the consistency and structure that they need when you have the opportunity.

Now let me tell you, I tried that repeat the last three words thing to updh???? Holy hell people, NEVER. AGAIN. Came UNGLUED. So word to the wise, that doesn't work in all scenarios.

Oh wow.  Was that before or after reading this thread?  In a way that make sense - pwPDs can often act so entitled that they think they shouldn't even have to explain their own thoughts.  I've had several discussions about that.  Maybe that tip is totally non-applicable in order to avoid explosions and JADE?

[SparkStillLit]

I read this thread with that .... rats I need to scroll up, Chris someone that worked with disordered criminals, and he would repeat the last three words back when questioning them? Someone else said that would have been a damn good technique to stop their former roommate and I thought to give it a go.....I may have used it in the wrong situation or something, but I rained hellfire on myself, whatever the case.

[SparkStillLit]

I almost wanted to laugh, though. In my head, I was going "whoops. Gosh Spark, either you didn't do that right, or you can't use that with this kind of people. That's....kind of epic. Let's just stick with what the T said, yeah?"