Do you ever wonder why they do it?

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p123

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Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« on: January 24, 2020, 11:24:32 AM »
I often do. Been reading a book too which said that some people are "prone" to being caught in narcs trap. i.e. leave one abusive relationship and find  yourself in another.

Not so sure I believe that. BUT, I do avoid conflict which I think is why Dad got away with it for so long.
BUT, it always makes me think, why does he do it? Surely, no-one would WANT to treat others like this?

Thinking about my Dad though. Hes a worries and this has got worse as hes got old. Hes also very set in his way and very stubborn - again worse as hes got older. So he worries about things, like getting old, then he won't listen to advice or try something. All adds up.

I've worked out in his head its sort of like "oh no I'm getting old what am I going to do?" and "I won't be able to do x". Then this turns into "oh now p123 won't help me do that now I'm going to be stuck" and "oh no I cant possibly change things it might not work". So then he seems to devote ALL his energy into working out how he can mantain things as they are, how he likes them, how he wants things to be. I've mentioned many times, I visit with my 6 year old. Shes gets 20 seconds of attention, then its 59 mins and 40 seconds of what he wants from me.

He also seems to ask things and be more concerned about the being able to get someone to do it rather than the task itself. I'm sure he needs to be reassured every single time "Ah its ok p123 is still there to do it for me".

New things- nope won't even try. Hes scared it won't work out.

In doing so, I don't think he even sees the harm he causes with is actions. As we all know, its counter-productive at the end of the day.


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athene1399

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2020, 11:40:36 AM »
Quote
Been reading a book too which said that some people are "prone" to being caught in narcs trap. i.e. leave one abusive relationship and find  yourself in another.
I read a book on this (Young & Klosko's LIfetrap theory- or called something like that) that said we get stuck in patterns becasue of things that happened in our childhood. For example, I often found myself in emotionally abusive relationships because they were comfortable to me. I didn't know how to act with a nice guy. It felt weird. I wasn't used to it. I was comfortable with emotional abuse though. I knew what was expected of me. That was becasue I wanted a partner who treated me like my parents. I didn't want to break free of the pattern. It took a lot of work to be comfortable with that nice guy.

I don't know enough about your dad to venture a guess. But some of his neediness sounds to me like a BPD fear of abandonment (but as I said, I'm guessing).
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He also seems to ask things and be more concerned about the being able to get someone to do it rather than the task itself.
He's afraid you won't be there to do it for him.

I feel ( and this is my own opinion) that some PDs bad behavior is to try to get you to do what they want, either by showing you how badly they need you or by trying to show you what a bad person you are for not giving in to them. I don't know if that's going too far and saying how they feel or what they think, but a lot of their behaviors are to meet a need. I don't know how else to describe it.

I guess the next question is, does analyzing why your dad acts like this help you to deal with his difficult behavior? Or are you just curious as to how he got like that?

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p123

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2020, 11:46:26 AM »
Quote
Been reading a book too which said that some people are "prone" to being caught in narcs trap. i.e. leave one abusive relationship and find  yourself in another.
I read a book on this (Young & Klosko's LIfetrap theory- or called something like that) that said we get stuck in patterns becasue of things that happened in our childhood. For example, I often found myself in emotionally abusive relationships because they were comfortable to me. I didn't know how to act with a nice guy. It felt weird. I wasn't used to it. I was comfortable with emotional abuse though. I knew what was expected of me. That was becasue I wanted a partner who treated me like my parents. I didn't want to break free of the pattern. It took a lot of work to be comfortable with that nice guy.

I don't know enough about your dad to venture a guess. But some of his neediness sounds to me like a BPD fear of abandonment (but as I said, I'm guessing).
Quote
He also seems to ask things and be more concerned about the being able to get someone to do it rather than the task itself.
He's afraid you won't be there to do it for him.

I feel ( and this is my own opinion) that some PDs bad behavior is to try to get you to do what they want, either by showing you how badly they need you or by trying to show you what a bad person you are for not giving in to them. I don't know if that's going too far and saying how they feel or what they think, but a lot of their behaviors are to meet a need. I don't know how else to describe it.

I guess the next question is, does analyzing why your dad acts like this help you to deal with his difficult behavior? Or are you just curious as to how he got like that?

No idea where he gets this abandonment thing from to be honest. I've ALWAYS helped him in the past and never let him down.

I am just curious I guess. Part of me just can't understand how a father could treat a son so badly... I guess I'd like to know why.....

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athene1399

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2020, 11:58:09 AM »
I wonder that myself. I know why M is the way she is, but I don't know why she continues to treat me as she does. M was abused by her M so it's like if you know what it feels like, then why do it to your own kid? I made sure I didn't treat my D or SD how either parent treated/treats me. I don't know why M couldn't have done the same for me.

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D.Dan

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2020, 01:08:19 PM »
As a child, I used to wonder why my uPDmom seemed to just.... HATE me.

Even now, I still believe she hates me. I personally think she sees me as her doppleganger (I look almost exactly like her, none of my younger siblings do) except I broke the doppelgänger rules. I'm supposed to be the evil one, not the good one, so she hates me for stealing what she perceives as her life/identity.
Beyond that, she's actually admitted that she does all her bad behaviours because she believes everyone else does them first. She supposedly is just trying to protect herself from the rest of the world....

My uPDex... that took some time to sort of figure out. Over the years he's told me that he regrets nothing he's ever done (even the REALLY bad lawbreaking stuff he knows is wrong) except when he told me about his underage online sexual partner. He said he loved me and the kids but needed us to prove our love back to him by letting him hurt us. He's even told me that he's allowed to do whatever he wants when he feels like it. He told me at the end before I left that he was happy with our life, he thought everything was good, he didn't understand why I was upset about anything he's done because as long as he's happy then everything's fine. He also admitted that he was bored because I kept making our life more peaceful.

I'm gonna believe him about these.

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NumbLotus

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2020, 01:28:30 PM »
p123, I see your father's engine as being powered by anxiety. "Who is going to take care of me" seems to drive his every thought and action. Was he not well taken care of as a child? Was his mother ill, perhaps? Or a sibling? Was he taken care of at first but did something happen that the care evaporated?

People cope with anxiety in all sorts of ways, and it can lead to tunnel vision where the effects and consequences of their coping mechanisms aren't well seen (because "calming the anxiety" is all they can see). There are other coping mechanisms than narcissistic behavior, but he may have just had an inherent propensity (personality) for that which was triggered by anxiety and childhood experiences.
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Hazy111

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2020, 02:08:43 PM »
p123, you know what it is. Its been discussed many times.

Being drawn into a relationship with the same type of "wrong" person is called the "trauma bond" They are unhealthy but seem strangely attractive as they remind us of the relationship we had many many years ago with our own mothers/fathers.

He may well have abandonment issues, but if so, these were created in his early childhood as was his personality. Its called an "insecure attachment ."  Approximately 80% of us suffer from it. There are 4 types. Clinger/Avoidant/Wobbler (mix of both clinger, avoidant and secure )/Secure.

PDs are 100% insecurely attached.

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Andeza

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2020, 05:56:19 PM »
There's another aspect to this. It's not just that those who are groomed to accept abusive relationships tend to fall back into what's familiar, it's also that pds of several varieties can sense these previously abused individuals and then go after them. (I am convinced,  :blink:)

Sounds weird? It's the only thing that explains why I can walk into a big church and within two or three visits have a handful of suspected NPD/BPD individuals circling me like sharks. :sharkbait: Yup, I give off shark bait vibes, which is hilarious since I don't put up with that stuff anymore and have mastered the art of the slow fade. My point is, Narcissists and borderlines (the only two I have experience with) are actively looking for someone to give them supply. If you make yourself available, you become their favored target. If, as I have done, you make yourself unavailable, they may discard you. I'm cool with being discarded, it's absolutely, breathtakingly peaceful.

That said, P123, your dad chooses to treat you and your family the way he does because it gives him supply. ANY drama, ANY chaos, ANY huffiness in your tone or correction you render upon him = supply. Narcs and borderlines are like druggies in this regard. The only thing they want, the only thing they need us for, is their next fix/hit. They only care about what they get from us. :stars:

We, on the other hand, care about what we're NOT getting from the disordered individuals in our lives. Unconditional love, respect, genuine concern for our well-being, pride in our accomplishments, faith in our ability to function as unique and mature members of society - all things we don't get from the pds in our lives, at least not on a regular basis, and usually not unless it gets them the supply they so desperately crave.

These one-way street relationships are not healthy, for anyone. They're even bad for the pds, because the pd never faces their own mental health and seeks treatment or help. Instead, they go on, getting their emotional high from our distress or annoyance.  :-\

I don't wonder why my uBPDm treated me like both child and parent. I don't wonder why she did the horrible things she did. I know why. Because she has a mental health disorder that colors everything in her world, and so far nothing I have done or said has ever convinced her to do anything to try to change. I've been no contact for almost a month now. It's been mighty peaceful.

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FoggedFrog

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2020, 10:04:03 PM »
I have a similar view to what Andeza says. I don't wonder at all. pwPDs have their brain wirings wrong. It doesn't make sense to us because they process and see the world (and the people in it) completely differently than we do on a foundational level. We will never understand why they do what they do and say and think. They are sick and they need help. In my opinion and for my own closures' sake, that is a case closed for me. Anything else is wasted energy.

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Laurie

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2020, 03:56:55 PM »
There's another aspect to this. It's not just that those who are groomed to accept abusive relationships tend to fall back into what's familiar, it's also that pds of several varieties can sense these previously abused individuals and then go after them. (I am convinced,  :blink:)

Sounds weird? It's the only thing that explains why I can walk into a big church and within two or three visits have a handful of suspected NPD/BPD individuals circling me like sharks. :sharkbait: Yup, I give off shark bait vibes, which is hilarious since I don't put up with that stuff anymore and have mastered the art of the slow fade. My point is, Narcissists and borderlines (the only two I have experience with) are actively looking for someone to give them supply. If you make yourself available, you become their favored target. If, as I have done, you make yourself unavailable, they may discard you. I'm cool with being discarded, it's absolutely, breathtakingly peaceful.

That said, P123, your dad chooses to treat you and your family the way he does because it gives him supply. ANY drama, ANY chaos, ANY huffiness in your tone or correction you render upon him = supply.

So true!  I've worked to "tread lightly" and stay calm (but gently assertive) around these types, then process the stress later by talking with supportive friends/physical exercise/hobbies etc. so I don't feed the supply.
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moglow

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2020, 04:35:43 PM »
Since this is the Working on Us section, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask why WE do it? For many of us, it's very simply what we know, what we were taught and reinforced throughout our lives. Stepping away from those expectations is a continuing act of will, but it has to be done or we just knuckle under and go on as before.

I used to wonder why mother performs and attacks the way she does. All I could come up with is that she feels somehow alive in the midst of drama. But now with her parents and siblings gone, she really doesn't have adversaries. We're all adults and don't really engage like they always did.

Mother's built no real relationships, not with us (children or grandchildren) or anyone else that I know of. It has to be incredibly lonely and boring so occasionally she puts on some big drama where she's the poor victim - but her audience is very limited. No one buys it or participates beyond the initial explosion. She retreats to lick her wounds then reappears as if all's right with the world. No apologies, no real explanation, no attempts to right the wrongs she inflicted.

Ultimately, nothing has changed - except me and how I respond. All mine is interested in is being the center of attention. Like a mean little kid, it seems that any attention is better than none at all. I refuse to center my life around her last explosion or the potential for the next - because there will be one no matter what I say or do.

May I suggest "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz? It's really helped me depersonalize (and thereby reducing the drama) and step away from mother and her ever-limiting world.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 04:37:34 PM by moglow »
“Nothing exposes our true self more than how we treat each other in the home.”  ~ Joseph B. Wirthlin

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p123

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2020, 03:44:10 PM »
moglow - yeh thats me. I have such a hard time understanding and to be honest, a hard time changing. Taken me years....

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moglow

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2020, 04:14:03 PM »
If I may, your only real responsibility is to understand and help *yourself* here. If your dad's anything like mommie dearest, he'll just move the goal posts on occasion when he sees he's not scoring as in the past. It's exhausting if you allow it - and I did for far too long. Now, she can move any damn thing she wants, I've seen it for what it is and do my best to not engage and not soak it in. That's the hard part for me still, making it roll off and not become a part of me.


“Nothing exposes our true self more than how we treat each other in the home.”  ~ Joseph B. Wirthlin

Stop Stinkin' Thinkin'!

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D.Dan

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2020, 04:19:46 PM »
p123 be gentle with yourself, change takes time.

 You're developing Successful strategies to deal with your uPDf. Strategies that work for you personally (not every strategy we share on here works for everyone or their situations). And you're turning them into habits, so that they automatically happen as you need them.

For some, knowing why the pwPD is being abusive (their goal) can help them figure out how to circumvent the abuse.

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p123

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2020, 08:30:10 PM »
If I may, your only real responsibility is to understand and help *yourself* here. If your dad's anything like mommie dearest, he'll just move the goal posts on occasion when he sees he's not scoring as in the past. It's exhausting if you allow it - and I did for far too long. Now, she can move any damn thing she wants, I've seen it for what it is and do my best to not engage and not soak it in. That's the hard part for me still, making it roll off and not become a part of me.

All sounds way familiar to be honest.... I just sometimes don't have the energy for another fight it wears me out. But I guess he knows this.

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Kat1984

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2020, 01:09:36 PM »
Having studied my uPD sib for a few years now, and talking with several therapists (beccause it's US that get therapy, not the PDs),  I've distilled it all into this, and it makes sense to me
1. She has a negative "lens" on the world.  Highly sensitive (in a not-so-good way).   Some brain studies even show that Borderlines brains react with alarm to photos of faces that nonPDs do not find intimidating.   Might be genetic (some studies show it is, and we do have an uBP aunt in the family).    She considers herself unlucky, and a victim of other people and of circumstances (in spite of no real major life stressors).   She sees herself as an "outsider" and always has, even as a kid. 

2. She has serious control issues.   She cannot control her emotions, but she must control other people.   Maybe it's because she can't control her emotions she must control other people?   

3.  Her boundaries are very poor.  As in "Out of Bounds!" yelled the referee!
She thinks she can read my mind (boundary issue).   She thinks she knows more about me than I know about myself.   She makes wild-ass connections between things the rest of us don't see as connected.    And when you combine the control issues with the boundary issues......well, that's where the meltdowns take place and the real trouble begins in terms of her getting along with people.
I do think it's possible that the boundary issues stem from the control issues.......maybe her need for control is so great, that she feels she must traverse boundaries in order to get her control needs met?

4.  Perfectionism.   It's part of the black and white thinking.    If she were to admit being wrong, in her mind she would become a worthless monster.   Not a human being that made a mistake.   A worthless monster.    So I guess it's no wonder she won't admit she's wrong.  Ever.

As has been stated above, none of this understanding changes what I do.   I stay away from her.   I control myself, I get therapy, I evolve.   I guess my brain does like to understand things, because I do feel better having worked out a theory for why she does what she does.



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1footouttadefog

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2020, 01:37:30 PM »
Largely because we let them.

For example the hour visit where you child gets less than a minute of attention.  Perhaps that could be a 10 minute visit until things improve.

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p123

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2020, 06:48:47 AM »
Largely because we let them.

For example the hour visit where you child gets less than a minute of attention.  Perhaps that could be a 10 minute visit until things improve.

Its more like 10 seconds. Its so obvious its done because he has to if you know what you mean.

Then its sit down at the table "have you done this" and "I've had this letter"

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mdana

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Re: Do you ever wonder why they do it?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2020, 09:34:39 PM »
Since this is the Working on Us section, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask why WE do it? For many of us, it's very simply what we know, what we were taught and reinforced throughout our lives. Stepping away from those expectations is a continuing act of will, but it has to be done or we just knuckle under and go on as before.

I used to wonder why mother performs and attacks the way she does. All I could come up with is that she feels somehow alive in the midst of drama. But now with her parents and siblings gone, she really doesn't have adversaries. We're all adults and don't really engage like they always did.

Mother's built no real relationships, not with us (children or grandchildren) or anyone else that I know of. It has to be incredibly lonely and boring so occasionally she puts on some big drama where she's the poor victim - but her audience is very limited. No one buys it or participates beyond the initial explosion. She retreats to lick her wounds then reappears as if all's right with the world. No apologies, no real explanation, no attempts to right the wrongs she inflicted.

Ultimately, nothing has changed - except me and how I respond. All mine is interested in is being the center of attention. Like a mean little kid, it seems that any attention is better than none at all. I refuse to center my life around her last explosion or the potential for the next - because there will be one no matter what I say or do.

May I suggest "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz? It's really helped me depersonalize (and thereby reducing the drama) and step away from mother and her ever-limiting world.


Yes, so true!  I spent a lifetime (nearly) trying to understand why (my mom, my daughter, my exh) did what they did to .... ME, and others. Why did it bother me so much, but it didn't seem to bother them at all?  Why didn't they love me? Why didn't they see how hurtful they were...etc..

I suppose some part of me believed I could change them, if only I  _____ (tried harder, explained myself, pretended it wasn't so bad, saw it from their point of view...etc...)

It wasn't until I started working with a therapist that I realized that even if I could understand who they were and the why...I was powerless to ever change it.  The only thing I could change ...was myself. 

Then, I had to grieve the loss and hope of who I wanted (or needed) them to be and fully accept what was.  At some point I realized that I had spent YEARS focusing on them entirely and not on "ME".  Who was I, if I wasn't the woman that was saving my daughter from the brink?  Or the daughter that was making it ok for my mom and protecting my dad?

All those 3 people in my life remain THE SAME.  The ABSOLUTE SAME.  I'm the one that changed.  For me, I realized that keeping the focus on them, made it worse (for me).  I had to learn to shift the focus onto me.  How was I contributing to the cycle of PD insanity? What did I want for myself in life?  And what could I do about it?

M




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