Two of my friends became angry with me today

[Jsinjin]

My friends independently told me today that they never see me leaving my uOCPDw   that I fall into the same habits and behaviors and that I continue to stay despite the kids being hurt and I have made my choices and I will never leave. 

I continue to try and find a way to leave that doesnt do any harm to anyone and it's just not possible.   I have a strongly developed sense of non confrontation and desire to see everyone happy.

When I hear that it doesn't motivate me and that's probably their disinterest since I've tried to find a path to leave for so long it's hard to cheerlead when the team keeps making the same stupid mistakes.   

I want to tell them I'll leave by such and such a date     my friends alswya get around to asking when and I give them a date but it always passes.

I keep searching for a way that everyone will be satisfied with in this world and I can't find it no matter what I try..   I don't want to hurt anyone especially my uOCPDw and my kids and that boxes me in.

[Poison Ivy]

I understand your desire for people to be happy.

Are your children happy now?  (I'm not including your wife in that question, because I don't actually believe, based on other things you've said here, that her happiness is a primary concern for you.  But I don't think it should be.)  If your children aren't happy now, what are some things that could contribute to them being happier? 

Here are some suggestions:  1) Recognize that your "strongly developed sense of non confrontation" is the equivalent of "fear of confrontation."
2) Think about other times in your life when you've done things you're afraid of. Doing so should help you feel braver now.
3) Recognize that few things in life are 100% good or 100% bad. 
4) Evaluate your children's situation.  Can you make some amount of happiness more likely for them by splitting up with your wife? 

[BeautifulCrazy]

Hi Jsinjin,
I've got my slippers on and the teapot full and going to sit and just be with you right now if that's ok. I've got my head full of lots of the same as you.
This afternoon one of my closest girlfriends told me I should put up or shut up already. Not in those words but the message was clear. I keep complaining when I should just leave.
I left PDh once already. I was in the clear. I was out for a year and a half. But here I am again, making the same stupid mistakes. Who has the patience for that? I was out! gone! safely away and thriving!
I have another girlfriend who barely talks to me now. She told me a year ago that if I went back to PDh, she would never speak to me again. I knew she wouldn't literally do that, she loves me and will always be there for me. But things are a bit strained and despite her concern and support and encouragement, I always feel her frustration and disappointment. And you are right, that isn't very motivating. I feel guilt about it and shame and that leads me to self-blame and that's an easy darkness for me to spiral into.
There are so many reasons it is hard to leave. I know that for you Jsinjin, all those same reasons I have are amplified because you share children and a much longer history and a much larger investment of time, resources and energy.
I feel your fear. Of confrontation. Of hurting others. Of loss. Of being wrong. Of doing wrong. Of putting the kids through a difficult time.
I don't have any advice or even encouragement at the moment. I'm just kind of sitting in my similar situation and feeling it and I wanted you to know that you aren't alone. There is no nice, clean, easy way out. There is no way for me to get free of my marriage that won't hurt people (myself included), upset people (myself included) and that won't ultimately be ugly and messy (although things are often like that already). I know that how I am living right now is not good and I could do better for myself and my kids by leaving. But it's so hard even just to think about. And I'm terrified.

~BC

[notrightinthehead]

Jinsin the dynamic that you describe seems to be something like that:

You tell your family about the situation with your wife and say you want to leave. You get a lot of emotional support from them. This makes you feel better and stronger and you invest this energy to be able to stay with your wife. When this energy is exhausted you complain to your family again and again they double their efforts to support you, even offer to help you move and you feel a little bit stronger which allows you stay with your wife. When your family has given up disappointedly and is exhausted from giving you all that emotional support and energy, you go to your friends and tap them for support for a while until they are exhausted. And there are many kind people out there eager to listen to others and give them support.  Basically you are taking the emotional energy from family and friends and use it to stay where you are.
Nothing wrong with that - people who work with battered women can write books about this dynamic - sometimes the victims even turn on their friends and family and accuse them of wanting to separate them from their loved one. It's just another crutch that enables the victim to keep everything exactly as it is.

[Jsinjin]

Thank you all.    I think my toughest dynamic is the need to try and keep everyone happy.   It is true that my uOCPDw is almost impossible to make happy.    But I hate to see her sad or upset and in this case the choice would me mine to do that.    The kids would likely feel the same.   

When I spoke to one of the people who closed the door and said that it is a boundary I said that when people talk to me they say that "I've known you for 'xyz' years and you could have just packed up and left"

It is true that I've changed jobs or career directions, given up sugar in my diet, taken social media out of my life and made positive decisions for me but in those decisions, no one ever got angry at me or was hurt by them. 

I think I need to stop talking about this or these issues. With friends because I'm sure it is tiring.

[capybara]

Hi Jsinjin,

I understand fear of confrontation and I've felt it too. And I believe that it is not achievable that no one will ever be angry with you or hurt by anything you do. It is even less achievable if you are honest with people about who you are and what you want.

With pwPDs, I believe that most of their pain and anger comes from within. We may be the triggers, we may be the targets, but we do not cause the feelings and we cannot cure them.  When my husband and I separated, within 2 weeks he had taken steps to address his depression and his health that I had been wanting him to do for more than 10 years. I feel like I was the aspirin that dulled the pain and let him ignore his broken leg. When we separated, he had to face his own reality.

Maybe it would be helpful to work on your own strength and boundaries for yourself, either with a therapist or a book like "Boundaries" or "Codependent No More"?

[Jsinjin]

Maybe it would be helpful to work on your own strength and boundaries for yourself, either with a therapist or a book like "Boundaries" or "Codependent No More"?

Thank you CPYB, I've read both of those and liked them and internalized a lot.   Not the forum for this but boundaries have always been rough for me.    I think I'm one of a type of person for whom persuaders won't give up on.   It's difficult to simply close a door without a "persuader" coming back, escalating and demanding more and more.    I've found that I hear a "no" and move on; occasionally I'm misguided and try to ask why or get clarity but in most cases I hear no and that's it.    I find that I am a particular target for people who have read Stuart Diamond's "Getting More" whether it is someone beggign me to volunteer, a boss pushing for a deadline or my uOCPD spouse when she wants something irrational.   This type of person starts with the belief that they "won't take no for an answer" and for some reason I'm a strong target for that.   

None of that is an excuse!   It's just the way things have happened.   My spouse has certain ways to get what she wants which include not listening to me, acknowledging that I've asked or said no and ignoring it completely, escalating to the point of powerful anger and violence (against things, not people) and braking down with irrational sobbing.    These are powerful ways to keep me in check and they work well every time.   The brazen attempts I have tried in the past armed with boundaries have often resulted in escalations I was not expecting.

A case was a time where the broom could not be found.    The usual places to look are the mudroom, front or back porches, or kind of chekc in obvious places.   It is true that she was not the one who misplaced it; it could have been me or one of the kids and was likely absent mindedness on a task.  I was in the middle of helping with algebra when the qiesjton came in of "where is the broom"    my answer was that I didn't know.   The questions kept coming along with the hyperbole of "why would the broom simply vanish"   I finally stated that "I can either suggest places to look or I can help you in five minutes after we work out this problem" thinking that was a boundary.    The almost immediate explosion tore through the pantry with mops and Swiffer tools flying out into the mudroom, stacks of paper bags being thrown, things in corners of the porches being bashed into walls and out into the yard and everyone got up to help look for the broom.   When we asked her to calm down she just said, "I'm just looking for the broom" and when we asked why she was so angry she said 'im not angry I'm just trying to find something that just disappeared and no one seems to have the time to put away or look for so I want to be sure to really look for it"

This is just one example but it's a commone one.   If you cross her or express a view or try to set up a boundary she is willing to take a route to explosive violence and behavior to get her point across or get traction.

I remember one of my most recent sad pojnts was expressing the view that I thought that kids wearing ID badges at school was stupid in an age of smart phones and automatic validation methods.   My own employer computer company did away with ID badges for smart phone apps.   I thought I was simply expressing an opinion but her anger Rose in pitch and violent levels to the point I was really scared.   I kept saying "it's just my opinion, no one has to accept it and I won't make the kids not wear their ID badges"   she got madder and madder quoting statistics and how the hell are they supposed to keep the kids safe and what do I know ...     

I'm digressing into the single point evaluations.   The real point is that I live this line of absolute fear and it's been the limiting step for me to make decisions.    One of my two friends mentioned that until I over the fear I am going to be stuck.    The actual results of a hard decision will probably be better in the end but the fear of that initial confrontation is paralyzing.

Jsj

[BeautifulCrazy]

Jsinjin,
It sounds like you are in a tough spot right now with lots of conflicting stuff going on inside.

Keep talking here okay?
We all want to see you succeed, and support you, whatever your choices are.

[Jsinjin]

Jsinjin,
It sounds like you are in a tough spot right now with lots of conflicting stuff going on inside.

Keep talking here okay?
We all want to see you succeed, and support you, whatever your choices are.

BC, I'm Ok.    I really feel. Like it's best to avoid complaining if possible.   I really want to learn how todeal with the situations instead of get stuck in my loops of trying to keep everyone happy.

[Free2Bme]

Jsinjin ...

I truly can appreciate the tension you are under.  Before I left my 20 year marriage, I agonized over my decision.  I felt as if the weight of the world was upon my shoulders and I feared having to give an account to my children for dissolving the family.  Conversely, I feared having to explain to them why I didn't leave and make a better life for us.  As the healthier parent, I was choosing to remain in an environment that was damaging to my children, I was part of the problem.   It was so difficult to imagine a life without all the stress and dysfunction. 

Physicians frequently assess risk vs benefit when prescribing a drug/treatment to a patient.  They must be willing to risk side effects for a chance to improve overall health and quality of life.  The same is true in relationships, no one divorces without incurring fall-out and no one stays in a toxic environment without damage.   

Sending support and wishing you clarity and peace.

*This forum is one place where you don't need to worry about keeping people happy   

[clara]

I think the fear of hurting/upsetting others is pretty common for a lot of us.  One of the things I do, when I start to backslide, is to try to observe other people I know who aren't like that.  What do they do that's different?  What is their approach?  That doesn't mean I want to be like them, but rather learn their techniques for never being a doormat.  I know a lot of it has to do with how  you were raised and your interactions with your parents etc., but that doesn't mean new behaviors can't be learned, and old ones unlearned.  It's really hard, but I went from someone who lived in fear of other people having a negative reaction to me to learning that as long as I wasn't deliberately trying to hurt them or committing some kind of wrong against them, my fears had no basis in reality.  If they had a negative reaction to me because of something I'd done that, in my opinion, didn't warrant a negative reaction, well, that was just how they were going to be and had little (or sometimes nothing) to do with me.  I wasn't going to accept their feelings if I didn't feel I was responsible for them.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Jsinjin, I know exactly what you are going through. Friends and family are supportive, but only to a point, and then they get frustrated which makes you feel worse. In my case at least two close family members are also pd, so I have lately been incurring their pd wrath along with that of my pdH. It sometimes feels like I am being emotionally manipulated from all angles.

One thing people keep saying is 'things can't get any worse' which is just a lie. If I leave, things CAN and MAY get a whole load worse. The thought of my mentally disturbed H having part time custody of my kids fills me with dread. At the moment with the help of MC I can keep a fairly balanced status quo, and I can protect my kids. All that will change if I leave. I'm not sure I want my H as an enemy because he will get really nasty. There is just a lot of potential trauma and I need to consider everything carefully.

Take your time making your decision. Don't feel pressured by your friends. Often these people don't have a clue what you're going through. From the outside it looks so easy to leave, but that's not the reality. It is much more complicated than people think.

Stay strong! Don't give up hope. Things will work out.

[Kat54]

Jsinjin

I get what you are going through. Avoiding confrontations, trying to keep everything and everyone happy. I was very much like that, though in reality no one was happy, I wasn't, my ex was not, and my kids especially were not. The toxic atmosphere my stbxUNPh created was terrible but its what we were all used to.  If I kept him happy things would stay pretty quiet but it didn't take much for him to go off the rails and start in with the craziness and anger and yelling at someone, its what they do.

My thought every single day for almost 3 years was how to end my marriage and get away from him.  The break finally came when my son wanted to join the military right out of high school and my husband thought he had to be crazy and wanted me to find a therapist to talk him out of joining. Which, of course a therapist would never do that. But in my thinking I thought it would be a way of getting him into therapy and us as a family or couple to be in therapy and figure out how to make our family better.  My son was fine he joined the military, my husband and I continued therapy because I told him we should keep going. Of course he stopped and said the therapist was nuts and why would he listen to that fruit cake. She felt he was a narcissist.  I continued and she helped me gain my voice and courage to make changes, and I ask my husband to make changes, which of course he refused and said my unhappiness was not his problem.

And after 3 years of heartache and feeling terrified, constantly complaining to my family and friends of being miserable.... I left.
One night my friend asked me right before the new year where I saw myself in the coming new year...home still with him, being so so unhappy going into another year or getting free as my friend was getting tired of listening to me and probably my family.  It became put up or shut up. I'm seriously am not a boat rocker but for some reason when my friend said that t me I just took the leap.
So, I'm saying have you tried a therapist to help you?  I thought my kids would never forgive me and take me out of their lives, but they haven't.  I didn't do it for only myself, I did it for them as well and I told my kids that, and today they understand. Through therapy I was able to find my voice, gain some self esteem and take that big step.

[BeautifulCrazy]

Jsinjin,

I am glad you are okay. I don't want you to feel overwhelmed or judged or put too much pressure on yourself because you haven't left yet, or maybe you never will or spiral down in negative thinking that you are just a complainer if you talk.

thehotline.org says
Keep in mind that if a person doesn't leave on their own terms when they're ready, they are more likely to return to their abusive partner.

Nobody can really decide what you should do. Or when. Or how.
You are the only person who can make the decisions that are best for you and your kids.
I'm sorry you aren't getting the support you need from some of the people in your life. It doesn't mean you are doing something wrong by sharing about your situation. Sometimes our friends can't be objective because they care about us, so it's frustrating to watch and listen. And for a person who has never experienced an abusive relationship themselves, it is nearly impossible to understand why or how leaving could be so darned difficult.
But Jsinjin, we are here to to support you friend. Even if you want to complain. That's okay. Vent away. A lot of what you are living with is not just abusive, it's really unfair! It sucks. And around here, we get it.
If you are afraid right now of taking the huge step of leaving, are there small steps you can take to feel safer and more empowered and/or move toward leaving the relationship? (I mean, if that is actually something you want to do. No pressure or judgement here.)
Do you have a therapist you can speak with about this stuff?

Keep reminding yourself of the things in the toolbox. And keep working on yourself and your boundaries. (Your 50%)
Be gentle and compassionate with yourself. Keep up with your self-care and get enough sleep. (51% rule)
We are here for you.

[pushit]

Hey bud, I would suggest reading a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy".  A very quick summary of the book is that if you are afraid of upsetting people, that is doing more damage to your relationships than setting boundaries and standing up for yourself.  It goes for friends, spouses, kids, everyone around you.  If you overextend yourself in order to make others happy, then you are shortchanging yourself which makes you unhappy, then you're likely acting out towards others which perpetuates the cycle.

I know because when I read that book it basically summarized my past and all the relationships I've had up to now.  I'm still working on my own behaviors to create a new pattern, and it sucks because I've had to drop friends in the process, but I think it will be worth it in the end.