Stigma towards pwPDs

[Wilderhearts]

I've worked in fields related to mental health my entire career, and working to reduce mental health and substance use stigma is something that's really important to me, but I find that in my mind, PD is synonymous to "abuser."  I automatically paint someone with a PD as manipulative, controlling, and prone to abusive rages, and I have to admit I feel a lot more pity towards pwPDs than I do compassion.  I assume it's impossible to have healthy interactions with pwPDs and that I can trust, or even expect, boundaries will be respected.

I'm seeing public discussion around neurodivergent diagnoses become strengths-based - we're finally publicly acknowledging how ADHD and autism spectrum disorders can imbue people with certain strengths and abilities.  I can do this with other severe mental health disorders, like Bipolar and Schizophrenia.  I can see the person separate from the diagnosis, how they're affected by the diagnosis, and the gifts and pains it gives them.  But I have such a mental block trying to look at pwPDs in the same way.  Is this partly because PDs are just so pervasive in a person's thoughts, feelings, behaviours that it's that much harder to separate them from the diagnosis?  Is it just stigma?  Is it just where I am in my healing that I still need iron-clad boundaries and essentially NC with all pwPDs and this is a way of justifying it?  I don't know.  I'm just feeling like a hypocrite - I can have self-compassion around it, but it still feels hypocritical to me.

[NumbLotus]

Most of us have compassion; it is required for our species to get along with and care for each other. Compassion is good.

We are also built to turn our compassion off for survival. We kill and eat living things. We have to in order to survive. We will also attack and try to kill anything that threatens us or our children or someone else we care for or are responsible for. Lack of compassion is good, too.

People who have not been harmed by a PwPD may feel compassion toward them. But it's okay not to.

I personally have compassion toward many people in my life who may have PD or traits. My compassion comes from seeing the trauma they survived. I see the PD as their survival mechanism. The problem is that their survival comes at the expense of others. We do not need to sacrifice ourselves for someone who will only take, and we do not need to feel compassion for someone threatening our survival.

[Poison Ivy]

Personality disorders also are on a spectrum.  My ex-husband, who seems to have traits of avoidant and dependent personality disorders, is a very gentle and often nice person.  I feel compassion toward him even though I am happy to no longer be married to him.  His late father seemed to have NPD.  I felt a little compassion toward him because I knew that he was unhappy and that his upbringing hadn't been the greatest.  But he (ex-FIL) did terrible things to me, on purpose, and I feel no regret for going VLC with him. 

[Wilderhearts]

Lotus, I guess the difficulty I have with having compassion towards the PD itself, or behaviours stemming from the PD, is that I don't see these behaviours as necessary for survival.  I see them as egregious, unnecessary harm done to another in order to avoid feeling any degree of real or perceived discomfort or harm on the part of the pwPD.  That, in my mind, is the definition of evil.  Not survival.  It's the same premise used to justify genocide - they're a "threat" to us so we're justified in wiping them out.  In the case of the PD'd abuser and their targets, we're a "threat" to their ego so they're justified in destroying us, whether by breaking our spirits or threatening and taking our lives.  Although I understand to them it may look and feel like survival, to me it's just evil.

I definitely remember stating to myself, when surviving a PD's very threatening abusive behaviour, that her feelings stopped being my concern when I had to worry about my safety.

Poison Ivy you have some really good points.  Not all PDs are as damaging as malignant narcissism and the like.  I did love my uNPDf and support him up until his passing, but I was also never really Out of the FOG.  And since coming Out of the FOG, there haven't been any pwPDs in my life that I can say I've loved, so maybe I've translated that to "I can't love and have compassion for pwPDs," when in reality most of the time it just hasn't been appropriate for me to do so.

[NumbLotus]

I don't think you need to feel any compassion and you've listed very good reasons why.

Like Poison Ivy said, there is a soectrum. Firtunately for me, while I've known several people whose behavior I identify as being on the PD spectrum, only one has been malignant. I feel zero compassion toward her. None. If she dies today, it will be a good day.

[1footouttadefog]

People who are clinically depressed dont abuse others If otherwise healthy. 

People who are add,  adhd, autism, retardation, PTSD, and many other things may suffer greatly from symptoms but they do not always seem to undermined those around them and abuse them. 

People with personality disorders and people with dual diagnoses that include a pd always seem to have negatives as symptoms. 

My spouse has multiple diagnoses, his meds help with the symptoms of all but the pd.  The pd symptoms are all things he chooses to do, say, or not do.

Having night mares for example is something he cannot entirely control for example.  He can. Use good sleep hygiene to optimize his quality of sleep by not watching anxiety producing material before sleep for example. 

Feeling low, having headaches, feeling unsafe in certain places, hyperviligance, memory issues, etc etc are symptoms and not all who have them lash out at others or deal with others via dishonesty and a lack or fairness and integrity.

Deciding to dump your dinner in the trash and pout because someone did not agree with you about a current event in the news is a matter of choice.   Inviting people over then making chaos before the  gathering and sabotaging preparations for it, is a choice.  Interrupting and changing all conversations over to yourself is a choice.

It is very hard to have compassion toward such a seeming lack of compassion

I also feel pity bit not sympathy toward this pd stuff. 





   

[athene1399]

This is such a great discussion. I'm glad you started it. I found I sympathize with PDs that don't directly interact with me. Like SO's BPDxw drives me crazy. She has done so many mean things to me, that regardless of what is going on, I cannot feel compassion for her. Then I start to feel guilty. Am I a bad person? Is it hypocritical to sympathize with other PDs and not her?

I also feel that it depends on the person with the PD and the severity of the PD. For example, BPD xw has done little to nothing to claim responsibility for her actions. Some PDs who actively work to heal and control their behaviors, do try to see the part they play in their situation and try to be mindful of how they can do things better next time. I think if a PD is not self-aware, then that's a recipe for disaster ( as in they are more likely to engage in all sorts of bad behaviors that would irk me and probably others).

Is this partly because PDs are just so pervasive in a person's thoughts, feelings, behaviours that it's that much harder to separate them from the diagnosis?

Part of being diagnosed with a PD is that is is pervasive in most or all areas of life. So this could be why you have trouble finding sympathy. But then as some have pointed out in other threads, some PDs are able to put a "mask" on in front of others and try to appear as "perfect" people. But yet turn around and treat their family like crap. That can make it feel like the PD behavior is a choice. Like you feel they are nicer to a stranger than to you.

I see the PD as their survival mechanism.

I agree with this. They are maladaptive coping mechanisms that have helped the PD "survive" their traumatic childhood. Often they have no good role models to base their behavior on so act like their abusive caregivers. I also feel that this does not excuse the behavior. Like if you were abused, you don't have the right to treat others poorly. So if I see a PD trying hard to be better, I will be more likely to be compassionate. If I see a PD always playing the victim and screaming at others when they don't get their way, I am less likely to be compassionate towards them.

Feeling low, having headaches, feeling unsafe in certain places, hyperviligance, memory issues, etc etc are symptoms and not all who have them lash out at others or deal with others via dishonesty and a lack or fairness and integrity.

exactly.

For me, I know I also don't like feeling like I fell for an act once I know the PD's game. There's an uPD at work who I can't stand even when she's nice becasue I hate that I was duped for so long. When she's nice i hear in the back of my mind "Look what a great person I am" and it drives me nuts. Everything she does is for attention or to feel good about herself. She doesn't do nice things to be nice, she does it to rub it in how nice she is. But then I know how abusive her mother was and wonder if I am being too hard on her. Then she comes in in a bad mood and takes it out on everyone and I can't even try to muster up compassion.

People who are clinically depressed dont abuse others If otherwise healthy.

Just to play devil's advocate, irritability is a symptom of depression. I would argue that some with depression can be verbally abusive. And if they also have insomnia, that can increase the irritability as well. And I'm just pointing this out for the sake of argument.

[GettingOOTF]

I feel about people with PDs similar to how I feel about addictions or any mental health challenge. I don't know that I would call it compassion though.  I feel it sucks for anyone who has challenges, but I now stay well away from people with these challenges. I don't wish them ill but I don't want them in my life. I don't feel this makes me a bad person or a hypocrite. I feel this makes me someone who has learned from their experience, who has boundaries and values them self. 

My personal view is that if your life impacts negatively upon others you then are obligated to address the issue or stay away from others. I'm under no obligation to have my quality of life negatively impacted by other people's behaviors. Whether or not they choose those behaviors is neither here nor there to me. It's the outcome. In many ways it's worse if you "can't help yourself".

From all I've read PDs, addiction and other mental health issues  are very complex. There is no easy "fix". I look at my BPdxH's upbringing and I see how he ended up the way he did. The same with my alcoholic relatives. That doesn't mean that I need to invite their issues and abuse in to my life or that I need to give them any more consideration than I do to every other person who enters my life.

I grew up in an abusive home with addiction. I struggled a lot with codependency. Now I'm able to distance myself more. I no longer feel bad for people or that I need to fix them. I see them as walking a different path to me. I stay firmly on my side of the street and I don't let them on to my side any more.

I have come to see that life is hard for everyone. No one has it easy, regardless of how it looks from the outside. We all make our own choices. We can choose to take our medication, choose to go to therapy and do the work, choose to make the hard choice of not opening the bottle. These may not be easy choices or choices we like, but they are choices. Choices millions of us make every day.

I chose to get up every day and go to work at a demanding  job I had neither the education nor skills for because I wanted to have a corporate job and earn good money. I worked harder than most in my industry and overcame obstacles many don't face. Now I'm respected in my profession and earn a good salary. My ex chose to sit home, not work on what he wanted and blame everyone else around him. Many of his friends who had similar ambitions are people whose names you know. Back in the day none of them had wives who paid the rent. They worked and hustled. Like I did. These are all choices. It's easier for some than others, but it's hard for everyone in one way or another.

[athene1399]

These are all great points, gettingOOTF. I guess the real question is not whether or not we should be compassionate but if we need distance from an individual to protect ourselves. Are our boundaries healthy? Is the person (regardless of diagnosis) draining us? We can recognize what the individual went through without having to let them drag us under with them. Compassion isn't about letting someone pull us under with them.   

[Crushed_Dad]

I feel about people with PDs similar to how I feel about addictions or any mental health challenge. I don't know that I would call it compassion though.  I feel it sucks for anyone who has challenges, but I now stay well away from people with these challenges. I don't wish them ill but I don't want them in my life. I don't feel this makes me a bad person or a hypocrite. I feel this makes me someone who has learned from their experience, who has boundaries and values them self. 

My personal view is that if your life impacts negatively upon others you then are obligated to address the issue or stay away from others. I'm under no obligation to have my quality of life negatively impacted by other people's behaviors. Whether or not they choose those behaviors is neither here nor there to me. It's the outcome. In many ways it's worse if you "can't help yourself".

From all I've read PDs, addiction and other mental health issues  are very complex. There is no easy "fix". I look at my BPdxH's upbringing and I see how he ended up the way he did. The same with my alcoholic relatives. That doesn't mean that I need to invite their issues and abuse in to my life or that I need to give them any more consideration than I do to every other person who enters my life.

I grew up in an abusive home with addiction. I struggled a lot with codependency. Now I'm able to distance myself more. I no longer feel bad for people or that I need to fix them. I see them as walking a different path to me. I stay firmly on my side of the street and I don't let them on to my side any more.

I have come to see that life is hard for everyone. No one has it easy, regardless of how it looks from the outside. We all make our own choices. We can choose to take our medication, choose to go to therapy and do the work, choose to make the hard choice of not opening the bottle. These may not be easy choices or choices we like, but they are choices. Choices millions of us make every day.

I chose to get up every day and go to work at a demanding  job I had neither the education nor skills for because I wanted to have a corporate job and earn good money. I worked harder than most in my industry and overcame obstacles many don't face. Now I'm respected in my profession and earn a good salary. My ex chose to sit home, not work on what he wanted and blame everyone else around him. Many of his friends who had similar ambitions are people whose names you know. Back in the day none of them had wives who paid the rent. They worked and hustled. Like I did. These are all choices. It's easier for some than others, but it's hard for everyone in one way or another.

[Spring Butterfly]

What a great topic. For me having boundaries is something I needed to learn about from scratch. It was unheard of and I grew up completely enmeshed so I needed to individuate and learn them for myself.

For me boundaries have nothing to do with emotions. Boundaries are decisions I make every day all day because I'm a separate person with my individual preferences.

Boundaries I choose may or may not be dependent on my emotions or feelings depending on the situation, but the decision still needs to happen and that happens in my brain not my heart (emotions / feelings).

My boundaries have nothing at all to do with whether the person PD or not but about my interaction with people and the world around me in general.

It's true with PD persons the boundaries are more from a place of protection and GettingOOTF expressed it so well. They have nothing to do with my feelings or emotions *toward* the person rather it's all about me simply knowing with I need, what is good for me and what is not good for me and choosing what to allow into my life.

In my case I feel sad for the PD in my life. What they crave and need is the exact thing they've sabotaged and therefore continue to deny for themselves not just with me but others in their life. That's just sad and even though I understand why they are the way they are based on their personal history that doesn't mean I need to choose to invite them into my space. They aren't harmed by my choice even though my choice may hurt their feelings.

I know their hearts hurt and they say they don't understand and maybe they can't understand, that's not for me to judge. For now I can love them from afar and wish them peace and healing sending good wishes their way without ever uttering the words from my lips. 

Karla McLaren's blog has a good post on love vs the emotions we normally associate with love that helped me.
https://karlamclaren.com/love-is-constant-only-the-names-change/

[bloomie]

Wilderhearts what a great subject and conversation. I will be returning and thinking about each one's thoughts.

I automatically paint someone with a PD as manipulative, controlling, and prone to abusive rages, and I have to admit I feel a lot more pity towards pwPDs than I do compassion.  I assume it's impossible to have healthy interactions with pwPDs and that I can trust, or even expect, boundaries will be respected.

Only you can know if this is a bias you need to work through or similar to a nurse who has to don protective gear when heading into a room to care for a patient who has a diagnosis of a disease that is highly contagious and particularly harmful for the caregiver's safety and the patient's. Recognizing you may encounter certain behaviors and symptoms associated with particular diagnoses is necessary imv. You are human as well and bring your experiences with you and all of that can get complex. I applaud you for searching your heart in all of this.

What I have learned to focus on that informs me is behaviors and determining if they are toxic or unhealthy for me and those I love to be exposed to. Just developing that internal boundary and practice was (and continues to be) my life's challenge - having been indoctrinated from birth to believe I had no right to self determination.

The presence or absence of official diagnoses does not determine my responses because quite honestly if a practitioner can get their arms around the complexity of a pwPD and come up with an accurate and stable diagnosis hats off the them with all of the shape shifting and cloaking that can go on with the pwPD I have known and loved.

If my stuff is recognizing toxic behaviors from anyone and responding with healthy boundaries with everyone, then working through my emotional responses and disappointments, accepting what I cannot change, and moving on with my good and productive life, then I am not bogged down in another's if's/why's/when's.

And I can still see a broken human being that deserves respectful treatment even if I cannot be in close connection with them any longer. And that is compassionate. Taking responsibility for what is mine and leaving what is theirs to them.

In my case I feel sad for the PD in my life. What they crave and need is the exact thing they've sabotaged and therefore continue to deny for themselves not just with me but others in their life. That's just sad and even though I understand why they are the way they are based on their personal history that doesn't mean I need to choose to invite them into my space. They aren't harmed by my choice even though my choice may hurt their feelings.

This is pure gold right here and just beautifully said and sums it up really well.

[Wilderhearts]

I'm hearing a lot of people say that whether or not compassion is warranted is situationally dependent, and I'm really relieved to hear that.  I guess compassion is something I attach a lot of value to, so when I was suddenly confronted by a lack of it in this one area of my life, I was left wondering if I had work to do to become a better person.  Not so much any more.  I guess I'm saying thanks for giving me permission to be human, haha!

That's really helpful to differentiate between where compassion/feelings and boundaries happen within us, Spring.  I guess I was struggling with the relationship between boundaries and compassion as well.  If I don't want to/can't show that person any compassion because I'm occupied enacting boundaries and protecting myself, or am not in contact at all, does compassion still exist?  Well I guess it ceases to matter, if we're not in contact.

I think a lot of this is stemming from the dysfunctional beliefs I was brainwashed with by uNPDf: if you have boundaries or prioritize yourself/protect yourself from PD'd abuse, you're an evil, selfish, worthless person. 

Well that realization just hit me like a ton of bricks. 

In my case I feel sad for the PD in my life. What they crave and need is the exact thing they've sabotaged and therefore continue to deny for themselves not just with me but others in their life. That's just sad and even though I understand why they are the way they are based on their personal history that doesn't mean I need to choose to invite them into my space. They aren't harmed by my choice even though my choice may hurt their feelings.

:yeah that: This just makes so much sense to me, and is so much more realistic than trying to feel compassion for someone.

What I have learned to focus on that informs me is behaviors and determining if they are toxic or unhealthy for me and those I love to be exposed to. Just developing that internal boundary and practice was (and continues to be) my life's challenge - having been indoctrinated from birth to believe I had no right to self determination.
.....

If my stuff is recognizing toxic behaviors from anyone and responding with healthy boundaries with everyone, then working through my emotional responses and disappointments, accepting what I cannot change, and moving on with my good and productive life, then I am not bogged down in another's if's/why's/when's.

Thanks, Bloomie.  I think I've accidentally gotten wrapped up in labeling people as PD'd (in my own mind) if I see enough toxic behaviour of a certain kind (e.g. they consistently rely on gas lighting and playing the victim) and their perception of reality seems very distorted (e.g., feelings make facts).  But it's counterproductive - it keeps me focused on my fear that I'm surrounded by pwPDs instead of simply putting energy into responding with healthy boundaries and prioritizing myself.  I would say it also probably is stigmatizing.  Thank you for sharing your mindset and process - it's something I think I'll be coming back to when I need a reminder of what approach would be helpful in dealing with these feelings and situations.

[Spring Butterfly]

dysfunctional beliefs I was brainwashed with by uNPDf: if you have boundaries or prioritize yourself/protect yourself from PD'd abuse, you're an evil, selfish, worthless person

yeees very familiar but yes dysfunctional thinking.

Even without PD abuse we need to have enough in us in order to pour into others. If I'm not filled up enough, or if the person's needs are greater than I have available to pour, there's little I can do about that fact.

Much like a vessel of water that needs enough water in it to supply those needing the water. It needs to be refilled, poured into, in order to have anything in it to offer to others.

All of me is like that vessel - physically but also emotionally, mentally and spiritually - there needs to be enough in me to pour into others. It's honorable to refill - self care and healing.

It's modesty, awareness of my limitations, humbly acknowledging them and bowing to my body that has allowed me to honor all other humans, PD or not, in a way that works for me. If it doesn't work for them, if what I have to offer, pour into them, is insufficient, not enough for them, then there's little I can do about it.

Recently I posted about this concept of not enough and I've taken the phrase and turned it on its head. It's ok if I'm not enough for someone. That's a huge message and a huge relief. Let's just acknowledge I don't have within me to give you what you need and just be on your way to find what you need from someone who has it to give. I wish them peace and walk away.