More control from Dad - hes good at this....

[nanotech]

It is difficult.
The first time I said, "I'm not discussing that, he appealed to my husband to 'put me right'.
My husband laughed and said ' she's the boss'- or some such thing. It diffused it. Hubby's a good people person. He acknowledged my dad's feelings but made sure he realised that he was backing me 100 per cent.
When I said, 'I'm not doing that" ( diverting our journey to pick him up when we were on route to a funeral which would have made us late or even miss the funeral) he again complained to hubby ( outside the crematorium in front of lots of family) about me. Again, hubby acknowledged his feelings but then backed me up, and he diffused it again.
I'm lucky with hubby. Really lucky. Not a disordered bone in his body either.
Believe me, dad is more than willing, and quite capable too,  of trying to steal attention from a corpse. It happened the summer before last.
I've noticed he asks snoopy questions a lot less these days. I always notice and I medium chill it. 
I used to recant every single detail of everything. 
I did it unconsciously, for the much needed approval, which never came, and to top it all I got scapegoated. 

[p123]

It is difficult.
The first time I said, "I'm not discussing that, he appealed to my husband to 'put me right'.
My husband laughed and said ' she's the boss'- or some such thing. It diffused it. Hubby's a good people person. He acknowledged my dad's feelings but made sure he realised that he was backing me 100 per cent.
When I said, 'I'm not doing that" ( diverting our journey to pick him up when we were on route to a funeral which would have made us late or even miss the funeral) he again complained to hubby ( outside the crematorium in front of lots of family) about me. Again, hubby acknowledged his feelings but then backed me up, and he diffused it again.
I'm lucky with hubby. Really lucky. Not a disordered bone in his body either.
Believe me, dad is more than willing, and quite capable too,  of trying to steal attention from a corpse. It happened the summer before last.
I've noticed he asks snoopy questions a lot less these days. I always notice and I medium chill it. 
I used to recant every single detail of everything. 
I did it unconsciously, for the much needed approval, which never came, and to top it all I got scapegoated. 

Yes I can imagine it must be difficult for you. Bet your husb finds it funny though :-)

I dare not repeat some of the things he says about my wife. Same, like "you need to sort her out" and the like. Yeh right. The way he says it is scary too - I really think he believes a husband has the right to force his wife to do what he wants by any means.

I know how hes been divorced twice to be honest!

And yes he always asks inappropriate questions that are none of his business. "So was the pregnancy planned?" is his classic. Every other week "so how much do you get paid a week?"

[p123]

One thing I hadn't considered. Its my wifes birthday on Sunday. We've had a bit of discussion and, of course, she wants to go out with the kids etc and not have me rushing off up to Dads. Hmmm I dunno to be honest.
Of course, Dad won't like this its his "set in stone" visit and the thought of me missing one visit will not please him.But then again, he doesn't "need" anything. Its just his need to get me there. Hes got plenty of food.

Trouble is I know he'll angle for me to visit after work one night next week. I can't do. Busy ALL next week - childcare logistics are hell!

My wife, to be fair, has put up with loads off him over the years and seen the way hes treated me. She can no longer bare anything to do with him - fair enough. 90% of the time she puts up with the fact that I'm going to go see him. For instance a lot of sundays, I'll ask what her plans are, we'll come to arrangement and I'll say I'm going to see Dad and she'll agree even if its a little awkward.

Odd occasion she probably could let things go a bit. Basically, she cuts him ZERO slack. Like Sunday, it'll be a case of - its her birthday why should she change plans to fit him in. I can see her point.

I guess I'm not the only person in this situation. Spouse been treated badly by in laws but you're still in contact. On this occasion it feels like I'm being pulled in two directions....

You're all going to tell me to tell Dad I'm not coming because I have plans for wifes birthday aren't you?

[Poison Ivy]

I will, at least.

Your dad's "control" is only as good as you allow it to be.

[Call Me Cordelia]

You don't need us to tell you that.

My husband is in your situation. I'm NC with his parents. He's in MUCH lower contact than previously, and I have to fight off resentment every time he spends ANY time with them. Every other Sunday afternoon would be unthinkable to me. Forget about my birthday. He tries to make necessary calls etc. when he is en route from work so it doesn't encroach at all on our time. And I still don't like that he calls them. Not directly relevant because you and your wife will do what works for you, but from someone in somewhat your wife's position, the more you can distance yourself from toxic dad the better for your marriage imho.

You're still feeling responsible for your father's feelings, aren't you? Weighing the probable consequences of disappointing Dad vs. wife. Which is least bad? Your dad will always be disappointed about something. You know you can't win there. You have the option to put that energy into positive relationships, into something GOOD.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[Adrianna]

Yes I will tell you to spend the day with your wife and children. Why? Because you want to! It's her birthday. Do you really want to give attention to your ungrateful, miserable, demanding father and not give attention to the woman you love on her birthday?
Why does your father's happiness always come first?  Surprise, it doesn't and you get to choose where you spend your time. Your happiness is just as important as his. Your wife's happiness is too, and that of your kids. Your father is not the king and it is not and never was your job to make him happy even if he thinks it is.
Spend the day with your wife! You won't regret that decision.

[NumbLotus]

I'm thinking the problem is that there are no choices that you won't have to "pay" for. You'd like a choice where everybody is happy but it doesn't exist. If you see your father, you'll pay. If you don't, you'll pay.

The goal, I think, is to come further Out of the FOG so that your father's behavior doesn't really cost you anything anymore. Right now, he really pisses you off. He says these things that really get under your skin because you are still taking him seriously.

I'm in the same boat, only with my H instead of my dad. There are things that he said that used to drive me crazy but I can't take it seriously anymore. He's crazy and he has an agenda. I care about what other people think but I can't care what a crazy person thinks I should think, feel, say, or do.

So now a lot of stuff, I sincerely feel like "whatever."  WHATEVER. It doesn't mean anything. A crazy man wants something from me, big deal, whatever. I don't even hear it really. Like a small child saying "I hate you" when you won't give them ice cream, it's more "lol" than "omg." WHATEVER.

Your father WILL say all kinds of blather. He is a crazy, selfish man. (Sorry, no offense.) i've had bag ladies yell terrible things at me before in NYC. I can't take that seriously. WHATEVER.

But your father can only make you pay if you're still in the FOG. You are still bothered because of your sense of obligation to him. But he spent up all your goodwill and wasted it. You are fast running out of craps to give. Funny, he doesn't want to waste his MONEY but he'll throw his relationship with you straight down the loo. How much can you care about somebody who has so little regard for you?

All he can do is say BLABLABLA in your ear. WHATEVER. He'll try to get you. WHATEVER. A crazy man who will use you up without a thought. His words don't mean a thing except to wind you up. You don't owe him any more. You're a good son, you get his groceries, you call, you visit. A lot of elders WISH they had that. He used you up like a tissue and complained he didn't get enough out of you.

It's nothing but the blatherings of a crazy man who is trying to use you up.

WHATEVER.

[nanotech]

Don't go to your dad's Sunday. Make a fuss of your wife.
Dad will be out to steal her thunder.
See him in a couple of weeks.
Just tell him.
It'll be fine.

[doglady]

‘You're all going to tell me to tell Dad I'm not coming because I have plans for wifes birthday aren't you?’

Yep.

[p123]

You don't need us to tell you that.

My husband is in your situation. I'm NC with his parents. He's in MUCH lower contact than previously, and I have to fight off resentment every time he spends ANY time with them. Every other Sunday afternoon would be unthinkable to me. Forget about my birthday. He tries to make necessary calls etc. when he is en route from work so it doesn't encroach at all on our time. And I still don't like that he calls them. Not directly relevant because you and your wife will do what works for you, but from someone in somewhat your wife's position, the more you can distance yourself from toxic dad the better for your marriage imho.

You're still feeling responsible for your father's feelings, aren't you? Weighing the probable consequences of disappointing Dad vs. wife. Which is least bad? Your dad will always be disappointed about something. You know you can't win there. You have the option to put that energy into positive relationships, into something GOOD.

Thanks cordelia - its good to hear from someone from the other perspective.

Yeh I do that -call him for the car etc. We don't mention Dad much - it just winds her up. She grudgingly accepts I do go and see him but shes not happy.

I think I've decided. Not going Sunday. It won't hurt its not the end of the world if I don't go once.

[p123]

Yes I will tell you to spend the day with your wife and children. Why? Because you want to! It's her birthday. Do you really want to give attention to your ungrateful, miserable, demanding father and not give attention to the woman you love on her birthday?
Why does your father's happiness always come first?  Surprise, it doesn't and you get to choose where you spend your time. Your happiness is just as important as his. Your wife's happiness is too, and that of your kids. Your father is not the king and it is not and never was your job to make him happy even if he thinks it is.
Spend the day with your wife! You won't regret that decision.

Yeh I know... I just could do both and keep everyone happy with a bit of planning.

Now to tell him I can't come or white lie that I've got to work (on call thing)?

[p123]

I'm thinking the problem is that there are no choices that you won't have to "pay" for. You'd like a choice where everybody is happy but it doesn't exist. If you see your father, you'll pay. If you don't, you'll pay.

The goal, I think, is to come further Out of the FOG so that your father's behavior doesn't really cost you anything anymore. Right now, he really pisses you off. He says these things that really get under your skin because you are still taking him seriously.

I'm in the same boat, only with my H instead of my dad. There are things that he said that used to drive me crazy but I can't take it seriously anymore. He's crazy and he has an agenda. I care about what other people think but I can't care what a crazy person thinks I should think, feel, say, or do.

So now a lot of stuff, I sincerely feel like "whatever."  WHATEVER. It doesn't mean anything. A crazy man wants something from me, big deal, whatever. I don't even hear it really. Like a small child saying "I hate you" when you won't give them ice cream, it's more "lol" than "omg." WHATEVER.

Your father WILL say all kinds of blather. He is a crazy, selfish man. (Sorry, no offense.) i've had bag ladies yell terrible things at me before in NYC. I can't take that seriously. WHATEVER.

But your father can only make you pay if you're still in the FOG. You are still bothered because of your sense of obligation to him. But he spent up all your goodwill and wasted it. You are fast running out of craps to give. Funny, he doesn't want to waste his MONEY but he'll throw his relationship with you straight down the loo. How much can you care about somebody who has so little regard for you?

All he can do is say BLABLABLA in your ear. WHATEVER. He'll try to get you. WHATEVER. A crazy man who will use you up without a thought. His words don't mean a thing except to wind you up. You don't owe him any more. You're a good son, you get his groceries, you call, you visit. A lot of elders WISH they had that. He used you up like a tissue and complained he didn't get enough out of you.

It's nothing but the blatherings of a crazy man who is trying to use you up.

WHATEVER.

Spot on NL. I think I'm just the sort who doesnt want to get into an argument.

Oh he is a selfish man indeed. I do think I've gone from someone who never upset him to rapidly running out of craps. BUT there are still some to get rid of.

Yes he won't spend money. He doesn't care about me but he is clinging on because in his head he needs me. Thats the issue. He thinks all the tricks he pulls is justified because he has to do this to get me to look after him. Crazy eh?

Trouble is I don't think I can just phone him and say "not coming busy, wifes birthday" just yet. At this time the best I'm going to be able to do "work got called".
I know its a bit cowardly...

[nanotech]

Until you actually tell him you can't and don't  explain and don't jade on it you will continue to get circular arguments from him.

Speaking your truth will free up both you and your dad? Your dad may have his suspicions about work not really being the reason anyway. He may speculate on that. Who can blame him for that?
What I mean is, it's kinder to your dad too in this instance at least,  to be straight with him.

If he does believe it's work that's preventing you from coming, he will be getting the message that work is more important than your wife to you, therefore you can't think a lot of her, therefore he's fine to continue insulting her.
If you spoke your truth to your dad it's showing him that you have a strong relationship with your wife.
I think this could be the reason it's hard for your wife to discuss him, let alone talk to him.
When I boundary set my dad started being a lot more polite to me. I had been bracing myself for world war three. Instead I got more respect. No one was more surprised then me, but it really is all just bluff.

[p123]

Until you actually tell him you can't and don't  explain and don't jade on it you will continue to get circular arguments from him.

Speaking your truth will free up both you and your dad? Your dad may have his suspicions about work not really being the reason anyway. He may speculate on that. Who can blame him for that?
What I mean is, it's kinder to your dad too in this instance at least,  to be straight with him.

If he does believe it's work that's preventing you from coming, he will be getting the message that work is more important than your wife to you, therefore you can't think a lot of her, therefore he's fine to continue insulting her.
If you spoke your truth to your dad it's showing him that you have a strong relationship with your wife.
I think this could be the reason it's hard for your wife to discuss him, let alone talk to him.
When I boundary set my dad started being a lot more polite to me. I had been bracing myself for world war three. Instead I got more respect. No one was more surprised then me, but it really is all just bluff.

I know Im just so bad at it..... 

Trouble is hes weird. If you give him a good excuse then he drops it. Its almost as if hes arguing with himself - "He should be visiting me" then hes ok "ITs OK he had work so thats ok". Do you know I mean? Hes ALWAYS like this.

He doesn't know I've got plans for wifes birthday yet though.

Trying to pluck up the courage not to JADE.

[NumbLotus]

If saying you have to work gets you through it, fine.

It will be a level up if you can some day tell him "wife's bday, not coming" AND NOT CARE about his blatherings, but you gotta do what you can cope with.

Not going is the right choice. So if lying about work buys you relative peace to do it, fine.

[Poison Ivy]

I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

Your dad surely knows it's her birthday, per the whole birthday card hoover nonsense. He'll see through the work excuse, and know you're afraid to say the truth meaning he still has some control (consolation prize). Or else he'll choose to believe it and think that at least your wife isn't as important as work to you. Either way he feels empowered to keep trying to drive a wedge in your marriage, with some reason.

That's speculation of course. But the point is trying to assuage his feelings probably is short term reprieve with longer term disadvantage.

[Sidney37]

I remember the anxiety I felt when I started telling PDm the truth rather than white lies or excuses.  I feel it in the things that you write about dealing with your dad.  It isn't easy.  You've come a long way.  We all come Out of the FOG this at different rates.  And honestly, it's so much easier to see what someone should do once you are on the other side.  While we'd all like you to just tell him that you aren't going to see him because it's your wife's birthday.  We all know from experience that is what you should do. It truly is.  I want to acknowledge that it's hard.  It's very hard when you are there, living it and having to deal with the consequences. 

I'm sure WI or someone else has suggested the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend to you. They suggest it often here.  I went to counseling to deal with PDm for the first time 20 years ago when at college.  I found this site about 4 years ago.   NOTHING made it clear, like reading that book.  It's religious for sure.  I'm not so religious these days as I used to be.  But I thought if kind, religious people think these boundaries are loving, kind, and the right thing to do, they must be OK for me, too. Before that I really just thought that avoiding the drama with her, avoiding telling her the truth, biting my lip when I wanted to tell her what I thought was the way to handle it rather than snapping at her.  Before this site, I didn't set boundaries so much as get mad and yell when I had enough.  I thought that I was doing the right thing by no longer getting mad, but just doing whatever she said.  I was jumping through all of her hoops without disagreement because I thought that was what it mean to grey rock and medium chill.  No.  I needed boundaries.  You need boundaries.  Healthy, kind, appropriate boundaries. 

I'll be honest.  The consequence of setting some very basic, kind boundaries was the silent treatment from her.  Her lashing out with some pretty awful emotional abuse.  Eventually it led to no contact from me.  If you asked me a year ago if I'd be NC with my mother, I'd have laughed.  But setting kind boundaries left her so enraged and verbally abusive that I really had no choice.  You have to think about what you are afraid will happen if you set boundaries.

The lying and white lies work.  But you gain some sort of freedom when you just tell the truth and live with the consequences.  In addition to that, when you get married, your spouse and kids become your priority.  Your dad needs to see that they are your priority.  You and your wife are a team.  Right now he sees that he is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees that work is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees the team as you and him.  If your wife and family are your priority, make them your priority.  Once PDm and enD saw that DH and I were a team that couldn't be influenced by them, the criticism of DH stopped cold.  They lashed out in other ways, but it made things at home much easier.

[GettingOOTF]

I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot.

This. 100%. It was my experience with my ex and while there were other issues it’s this that ultimately led me to realize I needed to leave.

Everyone walks their own path and makes their own decisions. Your focus is very much on your father and you don’t seem to want to change that. I say this based purely on what you write here. We are taught in healing relationships and ourselves to focus on what their actions are, not what they say.  For me I had to learn to focus on myself and those I cared about. People can only be pushed so far. I hope you are able to look up from what is going on with your father and brother and find some peace and happiness.

As the saying goes “nothing changes if nothing changes”. My ex was so caught up in his own stuff that he was totally shocked when I left. I’m not saying this will happen to you but I think we are of a similar age and this time is when a lot of people start asking themselves if the life they currently have is what they really want. I decided it wasn’t.