More control from Dad - hes good at this....

[p123]

I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot.

Not so much that. She is my priority and the kids. I took me to wake up a few years ago to this.

I have proved over the last year or so she is priority. But hes still my Dad - he doesnt get to dictate but I try to fit him in.

[p123]

Your dad surely knows it's her birthday, per the whole birthday card hoover nonsense. He'll see through the work excuse, and know you're afraid to say the truth meaning he still has some control (consolation prize). Or else he'll choose to believe it and think that at least your wife isn't as important as work to you. Either way he feels empowered to keep trying to drive a wedge in your marriage, with some reason.

That's speculation of course. But the point is trying to assuage his feelings probably is short term reprieve with longer term disadvantage.

Yeh I see what you mean. Yes I suppose he does know.

Pretty sure he wont think we're going out though. He doesnt think like that - "eating out - how much does that cost?"

But yes I need to tell him straight...

[p123]

I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot.

This. 100%. It was my experience with my ex and while there were other issues it's this that ultimately led me to realize I needed to leave.

Everyone walks their own path and makes their own decisions. Your focus is very much on your father and you don't seem to want to change that. I say this based purely on what you write here. We are taught in healing relationships and ourselves to focus on what their actions are, not what they say.  For me I had to learn to focus on myself and those I cared about. People can only be pushed so far. I hope you are able to look up from what is going on with your father and brother and find some peace and happiness.

As the saying goes "nothing changes if nothing changes". My ex was so caught up in his own stuff that he was totally shocked when I left. I'm not saying this will happen to you but I think we are of a similar age and this time is when a lot of people start asking themselves if the life they currently have is what they really want. I decided it wasn't.

Sorry I disagree totally.... Why do you think my wife and kids are not my priority now?

A few years ago yes I was going down that path.  I will agree - he said jump I said how high.

It got to a head. I had to change or lose them. It has changed. I've done loads to prove to my family that they are the priority and they are. Like you say eventually it all built up and I could see his actions.

Did I want it to change? It had to. Was he still my Dad and did I want to see him upset? Of course hes still my Dad and I don't want to see him upset.
Its not as easy as taking one huge step, having a huge argument and never speaking to him again. Not for me anyway.

There have been MASSIVE changes. Am I still focused on him? Unfortunately, I have to deal with his antics even more than ever because I'm not just giving in anymore.  Believe me I'd love to have a normal relationship with my Dad where I'm not stressing out and posting on this forum. Ok thats my fault for stressing so much...

Hes still fighting and its an ongoing thing I'll be honest. Yes I have more work to do - I should tell him straight maybe. Will that work? I know him probably not. At the moment, telling him the odd white lie works. He backs down.

[p123]

I remember the anxiety I felt when I started telling PDm the truth rather than white lies or excuses.  I feel it in the things that you write about dealing with your dad.  It isn't easy.  You've come a long way.  We all come Out of the FOG this at different rates.  And honestly, it's so much easier to see what someone should do once you are on the other side.  While we'd all like you to just tell him that you aren't going to see him because it's your wife's birthday.  We all know from experience that is what you should do. It truly is.  I want to acknowledge that it's hard.  It's very hard when you are there, living it and having to deal with the consequences. 

I'm sure WI or someone else has suggested the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend to you. They suggest it often here.  I went to counseling to deal with PDm for the first time 20 years ago when at college.  I found this site about 4 years ago.   NOTHING made it clear, like reading that book.  It's religious for sure.  I'm not so religious these days as I used to be.  But I thought if kind, religious people think these boundaries are loving, kind, and the right thing to do, they must be OK for me, too. Before that I really just thought that avoiding the drama with her, avoiding telling her the truth, biting my lip when I wanted to tell her what I thought was the way to handle it rather than snapping at her.  Before this site, I didn't set boundaries so much as get mad and yell when I had enough.  I thought that I was doing the right thing by no longer getting mad, but just doing whatever she said.  I was jumping through all of her hoops without disagreement because I thought that was what it mean to grey rock and medium chill.  No.  I needed boundaries.  You need boundaries.  Healthy, kind, appropriate boundaries. 

I'll be honest.  The consequence of setting some very basic, kind boundaries was the silent treatment from her.  Her lashing out with some pretty awful emotional abuse.  Eventually it led to no contact from me.  If you asked me a year ago if I'd be NC with my mother, I'd have laughed.  But setting kind boundaries left her so enraged and verbally abusive that I really had no choice.  You have to think about what you are afraid will happen if you set boundaries.

The lying and white lies work.  But you gain some sort of freedom when you just tell the truth and live with the consequences.  In addition to that, when you get married, your spouse and kids become your priority.  Your dad needs to see that they are your priority.  You and your wife are a team.  Right now he sees that he is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees that work is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees the team as you and him.  If your wife and family are your priority, make them your priority.  Once PDm and enD saw that DH and I were a team that couldn't be influenced by them, the criticism of DH stopped cold.  They lashed out in other ways, but it made things at home much easier.

Thank Sydney - yes got that book.

It is hard. Its got to a point now where I've got most of the control back. No longer do I run when he wants. I do a lot of ignoring him now - he can spout off how "hes been so ill", how "hes not seen anyone for days" and "hes got no food in the house". I know its all complete rubbish.

He still a complete nightmare - wants to know what I've been doing etc. Now I just say "oh stuff with my daughter" no details. Busy in work? "Always"
He says stupid things he gets a snappy answer back - then he drops it.

I know 100% his attitude to my family is "well they have to understand I need your help". Trouble is he needs about 5% of the help he thinks he needs. I am willing to help - in the past, I've sorted out home disabled stuff for him - I can do that. Taken him away for weekends. Hes never going to change.

So I tell him white lies or ignore him now. It works. Every week "are you visiting sunday?". "I'll let you know" then I'll ring him sunday evening- too late then. He'll ask  busy. Job done.

I've mentioned before he sort of seems to have a discussion with himself. Its weird. He'll start off a bit off. Then I'll tell him and it'll be "Ah thats ok then". As if hes now given himself permission to let me off the hook.

I know him. If I said "sorry Dad not coming sunday, I'm off out with the family, because they come first" it would start WW3. It'd have weeks of phone calls, "Woe is me" and probably at least one doctor call out and maybe a hospital admission. Instead if I call him sunday and say works come up sorry he'll moan but accept it.

BTW the work thing. I'm not a sad workaholic sometimes I have no choice.  I'm an IT consultant - I get paid for being "on call". I've never liked it but its part of the job. I've been doing off and on for 30 odd years so wife is well used to it.  She knows the score and accepts it. Of course, when I've got something on thats important I dont do "On call". I'm not REALLY on call this weekend either but he doesn't know that! Its a handy excuse.

[Andeza]

Well, if he does have a personality disorder, and thereby is mentally ill, nothing you tell him is likely to change him. Truth or lie. He lives in his own version of reality and it probably doesn't so much as intersect with actual reality. Matter of fact, his version of reality is probably that he will do everything in his power to drive you away from your wife and children so you can take care of him. Because he's the only one that matters...in his mind anyway.

You can't change him, in all likelihood. He'll keep doing the same nonsense, saying the same nonsense, trying to tell you how to live your life (regardless of whether you listen or not honestly) because he knows that he knows best. 

Eta I posted as you did

[p123]

Well, if he does have a personality disorder, and thereby is mentally ill, nothing you tell him is likely to change him. Truth or lie. He lives in his own version of reality and it probably doesn't so much as intersect with actual reality. Matter of fact, his version of reality is probably that he will do everything in his power to drive you away from your wife and children so you can take care of him. Because he's the only one that matters...in his mind anyway.

You can't change him, in all likelihood. He'll keep doing the same nonsense, saying the same nonsense, trying to tell you how to live your life (regardless of whether you listen or not honestly) because he knows that he knows best. 

Eta I posted as you did

Definitely some sort of mental illness there. Its all based around him getting anxious over pretty much everything. All the time. Everything. And being scared that hes not going to be able to cope. In reality, hes fine and I've never let him down so its unfounded. Trouble is, in his head, there is no such thing as mental illness.

He sees himself as helpless, old man who just wants a little help with things he can't do from his 2 sons. The reality is he doesn't want to make any effort at all, when he can do 99% of things, but then likes people running around after him because he feels wanted.

Took me a while to realise and its got worse....

With him it all seems to revolve around him and his thinking that he needs me to visit him because he needs help. He doesn't. Hes proved many, many times that he will go to great lengths to try and get things to work as he wants.

I think he knows that others matter but his idea (and hes said this) is that "everyone needs to understand I need your help". Hes proven many times that my problems and inconsequential compared to his.

Same with his beliefs etc. Hes right and everyone else is wrong. I should believe the same as him. Hes proved many times that his views are not only very strange but he thinks that as my Dad, he has a right to tell me what to do.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry you're in this situation, p123.  And I apologize for suggesting that your wife and kids aren't your highest priority.  I will believe you when you say that they are your highest priority. 

But if you lie to your dad about your reason for not seeing him on your wife's birthday, I think that your wife might interpret that as your dad and his feelings being a higher priority for you than she is.

[Andeza]

Hmm, poison ivy makes a valid point. That's exactly how I would feel in this situation, were I your wife.

[nanotech]

It isn't just validation that she's your priority, it's standing up for her too when he criticises her. He literally tells you to put her in her place.
In my view and it's only my view, ( but I can see consensus on here) the devaluing and discarding of your wife that he does, that needs more than grey rock.
It's up to you if you do it.
Put a boundary up, I mean.
Tell your dad it isn't acceptable to talk about your wife like he does, and to show respect. Doesn't matter what he thinks of her, she's your wife.
Give him a consequence if he doesn't change his behaviour. Cancel a visit or a phone call.
They are like children. Narcissists are about 6 years old in terms of emotional intelligence.

Your dad will moan and rant and kick against it- but he can only control you by frequent phone calls and hospital visits if you LET him.
You WILL let him control you, if you respond to all of that. THIS is actually the time to go quiet. This  is when you can ignore, or at the very most, grey -rock his antics.
( ignoring most of it would be best, especially at first).
Woman interrupted gives lots of practical methods for dealing with that possibility. 👍🏼

[p123]

I'm sorry you're in this situation, p123.  And I apologize for suggesting that your wife and kids aren't your highest priority.  I will believe you when you say that they are your highest priority. 

But if you lie to your dad about your reason for not seeing him on your wife's birthday, I think that your wife might interpret that as your dad and his feelings being a higher priority for you than she is.

I see what you mean..... In a way I agree but sometimes with family a white lie is best. BUT I understand...
Fortunately, wife is pretty good and understands and has no problem with this.

[p123]

It isn't just validation that she's your priority, it's standing up for her too when he criticises her. He literally tells you to put her in her place.
In my view and it's only my view, ( but I can see consensus on here) the devaluing and discarding of your wife that he does, that needs more than grey rock.
It's up to you if you do it.
Put a boundary up, I mean.
Tell your dad it isn't acceptable to talk about your wife like he does, and to show respect. Doesn't matter what he thinks of her, she's your wife.
Give him a consequence if he doesn't change his behaviour. Cancel a visit or a phone call.
They are like children. Narcissists are about 6 years old in terms of emotional intelligence.

Your dad will moan and rant and kick against it- but he can only control you by frequent phone calls and hospital visits if you LET him.
You WILL let him control you, if you respond to all of that. THIS is actually the time to go quiet. This  is when you can ignore, or at the very most, grey -rock his antics.
( ignoring most of it would be best, especially at first).
Woman interrupted gives lots of practical methods for dealing with that possibility. 👍🏼

Yeh. Hes clever though its all just little things without (most of the time) being specific. Theres an undercurrent if you know what I mean. He has said "you need to have a word with her" but hes never been as blunt as to say "shes this and shes that". Hes clever in this way.

Dad is mostly VERY VERY clever. Its all small stuff. He NEVER escalates it to an argument. I know a lot of people get this with narcs. Dads does not do this. Hes never put the down, raised his voice etc etc. He plays the small little digs game.

Hes also very good an sensing when hes gone too far and will VERY quickly backtrack. If he does get caught out (a few times) he plays "oh Im so sorry, I didn't realise" and "I've been so worried all weekend that I've upset you".

But is never easy, is it?

Of course, one problem is if I bail hes going to say "but I haven;t got any food, if you'd told me I could have made arrangements". Of course, he does have food and he deliberately keeps his food levels low so he can use this excuse. But you see what I mean? Thing is he ASSUMED I was visiting - all I'd said was I'd let him know. He won't have heard this,

And it will lead onto "well can you pop up after work some time this week?". I can't this week. Childcare is hell this week. Also, even if wife is home it means I get home when my youngest has gone to bed. Not fair but he doesn't care.

Also, I bet I get the "Oh well keep in touch". I've always found it weird when he says that - what a strange thing to say, Im not emigrating I'm just not seeing you for a few more days. Thats a passive aggressive dig isn't it?

[p123]

Of course, if I say to Dad I can't come because we're going out for wifes birthday - he knows going out for lunch doesn't take all day. First thing he'll ask is "so what time are you going for lunch?".
Then it'll be "so what are you doing after that? Can't you pop in on the way home?".

He knows pretty much where I'll be out. In Cardiff. He knows his house is sort of one the way home for us. He knows the shops close at 4pm so I could go shopping for him. You see what I mean?
He'd even pull the "ok no problem if the shops are closed but it'd nice if you ALL popped in". (Control here - hes forcing my wife to go and see him)

Its difficult for me to say "Going out" and "Doing other stuff".... I know should just day "out with wife and kids, no I can't go to the shops or pop in afterwards and no I'm not popping in later".
Yep JADE has got me at the moment - thats my problem.

[nanotech]

You just say you've no time, which you haven't. Not fair on your wife anyway. He needs to utilise his freezer, for when life happens and plans don't work out. 

Passive aggressive digs- my FOO oozes them.  Yes it's cleverer, because often if you challenge they will deny they meant anything untoward, then call you over sensitive.
Best either to state your truth on them as in,
' I'm confused dad, that sounded like a dig, couldn't be could it?' or else completely ignore them.
Mirroring them works too.
I said Nsis's patronising phrases back to her, calling her the same condescending names  she was calling me( her with feigned and sickly sincerity). That stopped her. She couldn't call me out on anything, because she'd done it.
I don't like behaving like this, but I've had to learn how.
dad said,

' I haven't seen those children in ages' (trying to invite himself to my daughter's home).

Instead of feeling guilty and hurriedly putting pressure on daughter to invite her granddad,
I just shrugged and said, ' yep, you must miss them.'
Followed by, ' You can always invite them to your bungalow.'
He never does. Never invites my kids, just GC and GC of Nsis.
Also, he doesn't miss them, and we both know it.
The visit related to him wanting to have a nice drive out of his town,

' ..then you ( me) could come too ( 30 mile round trip) and take me out for a meal in town, then granddaughter won't have to prepare any food.'

No, so you won't have to be around your great grandchildren all afternoon.  Because children irritate you dad. Even your own great grandchildren.

[NumbLotus]

- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

[nanotech]

- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

Well said numblotus. 
'Keep in touch' is suggesting that he feels you are moving away from him and he wants to communicate that in a passive aggressive way.
Laughter is a good answer to it because it implies he's overreacting and being histrionic. You are nowhere near losing touch with him.
It's usually said when people are leaving somewhere permanently, or going away for a good few months. You are right, he is really really good at this! But you're getting better and better every day. It's a game of chess really.

[p123]

Well, I half did it .

So I called him, he answered the phone in normal voice UNTIL I told him I wasn't coming. Told him I was going out for lunch with wife but I did have work to do later so couldn't come sorry.

His response was pretty bad. "Oh no oh no, oh dear oh dear, oh no oh no" - honestly dramatic was not the word. It was as if someone had died not that I'd see him in a few days.
Then I got croaky waif voice (all of a sudden too!) how he was so ill, his legs were so bad. What does he want me to do about it?
Honestly, if was so bad you could have made a comedy sketch about it.

I just said "oh well, got to go speak to you in a day or two". He did manage to get in there "You'll HAVE to come monday after work". No can do. (Im not lying here either I've got my daughter to pick up.

Do you know what though it was laughable? Dont want to be mean to him but I''m glad I did it.

Wife was semi-happy - she still said, as you all did, I should have just said "wifes birthday end of".

Fully expect full tilt waifing when I do call him. Probably get a few "disappointeds", and deffo a few "no food in the house what am I going to do". Couldnt give a F any more to be honest....
He would give zero F about it being my wifes birthday today.

[p123]

You just say you've no time, which you haven't. Not fair on your wife anyway. He needs to utilise his freezer, for when life happens and plans don't work out. 

Passive aggressive digs- my FOO oozes them.  Yes it's cleverer, because often if you challenge they will deny they meant anything untoward, then call you over sensitive.
Best either to state your truth on them as in,
' I'm confused dad, that sounded like a dig, couldn't be could it?' or else completely ignore them.
Mirroring them works too.
I said Nsis's patronising phrases back to her, calling her the same condescending names  she was calling me( her with feigned and sickly sincerity). That stopped her. She couldn't call me out on anything, because she'd done it.
I don't like behaving like this, but I've had to learn how.
dad said,

' I haven't seen those children in ages' (trying to invite himself to my daughter's home).

Instead of feeling guilty and hurriedly putting pressure on daughter to invite her granddad,
I just shrugged and said, ' yep, you must miss them.'
Followed by, ' You can always invite them to your bungalow.'
He never does. Never invites my kids, just GC and GC of Nsis.
Also, he doesn't miss them, and we both know it.
The visit related to him wanting to have a nice drive out of his town,

' ..then you ( me) could come too ( 30 mile round trip) and take me out for a meal in town, then granddaughter won't have to prepare any food.'

No, so you won't have to be around your great grandchildren all afternoon.  Because children irritate you dad. Even your own great grandchildren.

Yep hes got a chest freezer which I bought. He deliberately keeps it stocked very low - so hes got power. In all honesty, if I filled it he has meals on wheels too he could last for months. Hes tried that too "but it won't keep will it?" are you kidding me its frozen!!!!

Of course he comes up with all sorts of excuses why I can;t do home delivery "not paying for it" (yeh £2 I easily drive 50 miles on £2 worht of fuel after all), "dont want strangers knocking my door" (hope you tell the postman the same) "I dont want to spend that much in one go" (theres a minimum of £40 - back to the stick it in the freezer argument)

[p123]

- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

ha ha spot on.

[p123]

- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

Well said numblotus. 
'Keep in touch' is suggesting that he feels you are moving away from him and he wants to communicate that in a passive aggressive way.
Laughter is a good answer to it because it implies he's overreacting and being histrionic. You are nowhere near losing touch with him.
It's usually said when people are leaving somewhere permanently, or going away for a good few months. You are right, he is really really good at this! But you're getting better and better every day. It's a game of chess really.

ha ha see my other post about it being a game of chess. It REALLY winds me up when he says "keep in touch" its so so passive aggresive. Glad you all agree.

He'll often ask what my wife is going and I used to say "Oh shes umpiring netball today" (which she does). He'd sigh, shake his head, and say "there we got then". As if how dare she being something different and not coming to see him....

Of course when he said "Its OK I know its not your fault" my head nearly exploded. As if to say "I know you're wife is a right witch but I won't blame you".

[nanotech]

I've been reading about sociopaths, not suggesting your dad is one, but one of their traits is having a 'Target of Blame'.
They also have no empathy. It's quite close to narcissism, except sociopaths try to engineer things to their advantage, and they don't worry about fighting dirty-the end always justifies the means. ( Machiavellian! )
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?

My dad and UNPDGC Bro and UnPDsis do this. They bring in the concept of fault in then don't point the finger directly. They prefer to discard our loved one and in turn that criticises us, the scapegoated child.

In your case, you chose to marry your wife,so while he doesn't appear to blame you for getting involved with her ( red- blooded male and all that) he DOES blame you for holding onto her and, heaven forfend, actually valuing and respecting her, and of course, putting her first.
I'm guessing he's never done this in his relationships with women.
PDs lack empathy, and he can't understand why you haven't already strayed or lost interest in your marriage and why you haven't  followed the pattern of divorce he
(lovingly)set for you!
After all, if you do  better at your relationships, the PD in your life will take that as a personal insult!