More control from Dad - hes good at this....

[Poison Ivy]

Good for you, p123!  And happy birthday to your wife.

[illogical]

Hi p123,

I think you did great!  Maybe you're not exactly to the point of not JADEing, but you're coming pretty close.  You are not giving him lengthy explanations about why you can't come, just short excuses-- your wife's b-day, you are working, you're "busy", etc.  Then, you effectively shut him down with "I'll talk to you later." 

That's a milestone, IMHO!  You are starting to see how he manipulates you with his waify, Victim Act, and you are not falling for it!  Bully for you!!

Keep up the good work, mate.  You are making great strides here!   

[doglady]

Well, I half did it .

So I called him, he answered the phone in normal voice UNTIL I told him I wasn't coming. Told him I was going out for lunch with wife but I did have work to do later so couldn't come sorry.

His response was pretty bad. "Oh no oh no, oh dear oh dear, oh no oh no" - honestly dramatic was not the word. It was as if someone had died not that I'd see him in a few days.
Then I got croaky waif voice (all of a sudden too!) how he was so ill, his legs were so bad. What does he want me to do about it?
Honestly, if was so bad you could have made a comedy sketch about it.

I just said "oh well, got to go speak to you in a day or two". He did manage to get in there "You'll HAVE to come monday after work". No can do. (Im not lying here either I've got my daughter to pick up.

Do you know what though it was laughable? Dont want to be mean to him but I''m glad I did it.

Wife was semi-happy - she still said, as you all did, I should have just said "wifes birthday end of".

Fully expect full tilt waifing when I do call him. Probably get a few "disappointeds", and deffo a few "no food in the house what am I going to do". Couldnt give a F any more to be honest....
He would give zero F about it being my wifes birthday today.

Great effort, p123!! 
(And I'm so glad you could see the comedy sketch potential)
Well done!

[p123]

Phoned him today. Expecting more of the same BUT hes so clever!

After yesterdays "scene" hes done a 180 degree about face. He was pleasant on the phone and said "oh its ok, I knew it was your wifes birthday so its only fair". What? This is not what you said yesterday????

He even admitted my brother is visiting today. What? Why the food emergency then?
He hasn't dropped it completely. I even had "oh you do so much for me, if you can pop up one evening I'd be so grateful". What?

Honestly, its just so manipulative. Hes done this MANY times. His first approach fails and he loses so he tries another approach.... Of course, if he acted like this all the time  but I know it wont last.

No apology mind-  thats been swept under the carpet now. And he didnt even mention how ill he was yesterday!!!!

[p123]

Hi p123,

I think you did great!  Maybe you're not exactly to the point of not JADEing, but you're coming pretty close.  You are not giving him lengthy explanations about why you can't come, just short excuses-- your wife's b-day, you are working, you're "busy", etc.  Then, you effectively shut him down with "I'll talk to you later." 

That's a milestone, IMHO!  You are starting to see how he manipulates you with his waify, Victim Act, and you are not falling for it!  Bully for you!!

Keep up the good work, mate.  You are making great strides here!   

That was a mega waif. Went from normal voice to croaky "I've been so ill" in seconds. It was so funny.

[p123]

I've been reading about sociopaths, not suggesting your dad is one, but one of their traits is having a 'Target of Blame'.
They also have no empathy. It's quite close to narcissism, except sociopaths try to engineer things to their advantage, and they don't worry about fighting dirty-the end always justifies the means. ( Machiavellian! )
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?

My dad and UNPDGC Bro and UnPDsis do this. They bring in the concept of fault in then don't point the finger directly. They prefer to discard our loved one and in turn that criticises us, the scapegoated child.

In your case, you chose to marry your wife,so while he doesn't appear to blame you for getting involved with her ( red- blooded male and all that) he DOES blame you for holding onto her and, heaven forfend, actually valuing and respecting her, and of course, putting her first.
I'm guessing he's never done this in his relationships with women.
PDs lack empathy, and he can't understand why you haven't already strayed or lost interest in your marriage and why you haven't  followed the pattern of divorce he
(lovingly)set for you!
After all, if you do  better at your relationships, the PD in your life will take that as a personal insult!

Ha ha he probably is a sociopath. He doesnt give a monkeys about everyone else.

Hes weird with my family. It always seems to be a case of "yes you  have family and I guess you have to put up with them" but what about me? His attitude to wives is well weird - he often tells me how you're best "not telling women anything". Just Wow. For birthdays it'd be like yes buy her something, take her out so shes happy then...

He does like to think that "yes I've got to deal with my family" but him and me have this special relationship and thats the most important.

[lkdrymom]

You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do. You need to make that up and after awhile I just started taking that time back from him.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

[p123]

You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do. You need to make that up and after awhile I just started taking that time back from him.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Ha ha I expect I've got that all to come. His health is OK at the moment, but when hes been ill in the past, hes been 10x worse than normal. Its not going to be good.

I'm sure he thinks I go to work, go home and laze around. This week I've got 1 parents evening, 1 meeting in the school, 1 netball game with daughter, 1 ballet lesson, 1 swimming lesson and wife is working 4 out of 5 days. Oh and I've got fit in 37 hours at work plus "On call" for 2 of those nights.  Yet he thinks I can "pop in after work and get some groceries for him". 30 mins in store, 45 mins drive to his house, 45-60 mins there while he talks rubbish, 30 mins home. Oh look its 8pm I've been in work all week, I've not eaten and my daugher is in bed and I've not even seen her. Thanks Dad.

Oh and the lies I get from him. He forgets what hes said. He knows he won't let me do home delivery but its still urgent he gets food, he forgets he told me hes got £1000 stashed in the house, but its urgent I got to cash machine for him. Hes not seen a "soul" for days but forgets he told me brother was there yesterday. Its just crazy.

His health is really winding me up. Yes hes got arthritis and dodgy knees - but not so bad for his age. DO NOT call me and moan about it when you take HALF the dose that the GP has told you to take of painkillers because you're friend told you you'll get addicted to them. Also, remember I am neither a doctor, a magician, or a faith healer so I can't help you. So NO telling me how bad you're knees have been wont make me visit either!

Its been made clearer on this painkiller issue when I had back problems a few months. I was at the GP getting stronger and stronger painkillers. I was clock watching until I could take the next dose. I was in agony. So when Dad takes 1/2 dose I know it aint that bad.

[nanotech]

You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Yes, he chooses to say no to a wide wide range of other options.
He's so like my dad who since I've put boundaries down, mostly tries the softly softly tack these days too. I don't get drawn in.
They try to wrongfoot you and so pull at your heart strings and get you to comply. It's gaslighting and it's to get you to see them as a victim.
You've done so well. What I realised with my dad was that nothing I did was going to be good enough
and I was still going to be criticised. That moment was a Wizard of Oz/Labrynth moment.
He had no power over me except the power I was giving him by trying to seek approval.
from him.
I saw I was also trying to look good to the whole family. I just stopped worrying about that and then began living my life. I'm lowish contact but I am a caring daughter, I just don't get walked over any more by any of them.
They hate it but because our family dysfunction is steeped in passive aggressive control. All the siblings struggle to talk to me directly about anything.
Older sister tried to tell me ( on messenger -which to me is a cop out) that I 'never come and see dad.'
I sensed her narc rage and just calmly told her that wasn't her business how often I saw dad. She then agreed with me! ( victim mode creeping  in when the attempted shaming fails).
I absolutely don't care what she says behind my back. I sold my reputation but gained my authentic life. They didn't. They pretend it's all hunky dory in the dark depths of that cult that is my family of origin.
It's funny that we would joke that we were just like THE Addams Family and we would sing and click fingers!  Talk about trauma  bonding.
I'm no longer on social media with any of them. I have my cousins on there.
They don't like it but won't talk about it, which is fine by me.
No more passive aggressive spats  at 12.30 at night often followed by a discard ( defriending for a period of time - then a massive apology ( Nsis) or a begrudged grunt ( Nbro) but always after I've made the first contact, then repeating the same- you-know -what, I really cant believe I'm  free of if now. 

[p123]

You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Yes, he chooses to say no to a wide wide range of other options.
He's so like my dad who since I've put boundaries down, mostly tries the softly softly tack these days too. I don't get drawn in.
They try to wrongfoot you and so pull at your heart strings and get you to comply. It's gaslighting and it's to get you to see them as a victim.
You've done so well. What I realised with my dad was that nothing I did was going to be good enough
and I was still going to be criticised. That moment was a Wizard of Oz/Labrynth moment.
He had no power over me except the power I was giving him by trying to seek approval.
from him.
I saw I was also trying to look good to the whole family. I just stopped worrying about that and then began living my life. I'm lowish contact but I am a caring daughter, I just don't get walked over any more by any of them.
They hate it but because our family dysfunction is steeped in passive aggressive control. All the siblings struggle to talk to me directly about anything.
Older sister tried to tell me ( on messenger -which to me is a cop out) that I 'never come and see dad.'
I sensed her narc rage and just calmly told her that wasn't her business how often I saw dad. She then agreed with me! ( victim mode creeping  in when the attempted shaming fails).
I absolutely don't care what she says behind my back. I sold my reputation but gained my authentic life. They didn't. They pretend it's all hunky dory in the dark depths of that cult that is my family of origin.
It's funny that we would joke that we were just like THE Addams Family and we would sing and click fingers!  Talk about trauma  bonding.
I'm no longer on social media with any of them. I have my cousins on there.
They don't like it but won't talk about it, which is fine by me.
No more passive aggressive spats  at 12.30 at night often followed by a discard ( defriending for a period of time - then a massive apology ( Nsis) or a begrudged grunt ( Nbro) but always after I've made the first contact, then repeating the same- you-know -what, I really cant believe I'm  free of if now.

Yes know what you mean.Its always his way or no way.

I had that too with brother now. NC now. I'd post pics of my kids doing something on fbook and he'd comment "if you've got time for that then why don't you visit Dad?". I'd take a pic of airport on way home from holiday and he'd comment "you've been home since saturday you just told dad it was today" (I hadnt he'd got it wrong). The glastonbury incident was the best "Phone Dad urgently". "Why whats up? not got good signal". "Just phone him". "Why? tell me" "Just phone him". Then message to my wife "You two are so selfish you wont spend 5 mins checking our Dad is ok".

If I never speak to brother again I'll be happy. Of course Dad thinks the 3 of us have got a "special bond" (he was a single parent). Not any more I think hes not worth bothering with at all.

[lkdrymom]

Do you love when people think it is their right to schedule/dictate how your time is spent.  Next time he sees you at a ballet recital and says if you have time for ballet you have time for dad....reply "No, I don't. I was at the ballet recital which means I don't have time to visit day because I WAS HERE.  For me to be with Dad I would have to give up being here. And I WANT to be here".  He can infer anything he wants from that.

[p123]

Do you love when people think it is their right to schedule/dictate how your time is spent.  Next time he sees you at a ballet recital and says if you have time for ballet you have time for dad....reply "No, I don't. I was at the ballet recital which means I don't have time to visit day because I WAS HERE.  For me to be with Dad I would have to give up being here. And I WANT to be here".  He can infer anything he wants from that.

Of course, part of the problem is that brother has no kids he sees (can't be bothered they're with the mother). Whereas my kids, I'm pleased to take them and allow them to do whatever activities they want.

In the past, Dad hasn't got in his head why I won't cancel something my daughters doing to fit him in. No Dad. His argument used to be "well she can go next week". I did refuse this - after 4-5 year olds don't really understand why they can't go to the party or their gymnastics class.
One xmas he was in hospital xmas day and he wanted me there by 9am. No chance - I want to spend time with my kids I'll be over in the afternoon. (it was 45 mins drive so I wasnt keen). He went nuts "there'll be other xmases for your kids, they'll have to put with it, I want you here 9am no excuses". I turned up 2pm and he was off on one. I threatened to turn around and go home unless he changed the subject. Luckiyl for him he did!

Brother was the same last time we talked. "You and your wife will have to visit Dad on Saturday mornings now". yes he'd decided. Me "No can do, wife works a lot of Saturdays and its not her problem. Also, daughter does things Sat am so its a no". "Well, you'll have to cancel it". Me -"Nope". Like I said we're NC now after a few similar conversations like this.

Got to admit I can't really remember but I can imagine Dad NOT putting the kids first when I was younger to be honest!

[nanotech]

Do you love when people think it is their right to schedule/dictate how your time is spent.  Next time he sees you at a ballet recital and says if you have time for ballet you have time for dad....reply "No, I don't. I was at the ballet recital which means I don't have time to visit day because I WAS HERE.  For me to be with Dad I would have to give up being here. And I WANT to be here".  He can infer anything he wants from that.

Absolutely.
We don't have to sacrifice our every spare moment to serve them.  We are entitled to our own  family time, hobbies and leisure time. Xxxxxxxxx

[p123]

Doing well. This week has been mega busy..... I'm always busy but this week I'm even struggling to put the hours in with work because of commitments (i.e. childcare pick up daughter 430pm etc).

Dad as ever is being Dad. Phoned him last night -"oh so you're on you're way up and doing my shopping?" No dad. Then I get the "But I've got no food!". I spoke to him sunday and he admitted my brother visited him monday.  Yet wednesday hes telling me hes got no food - seriously?

I did well "Nope Dad I'm busy all week I'll see you at the weekend but be aware I'm  On CAll again!". I must have heard the phrase "HOPE you can make it" and "Don't know what I'll do otherwise" literally 10 times... It just annoys me so much that its this "come hell or high water" attitude again!

[nanotech]

He's trying to trigger those guilt buttons - the ones he set up years ago.
I've been reading up on PD strategies, and it's false guilt. That's why it feels bad, but weird.
He can ring Sainsbury's anytime ( other supermarkets are available!).

We have an elderly couple living next door to us. They both have health issues. They do an online shop every week.We see the van arrive.
In this way they stay independent.
They are a lovely, lovely couple. They have a son who lives quite far away, and visits now and again.
Their day -to -day living,  they sort themselves. They've both been in hospital, and when one is, the other copes well. We usually only find out after the event. They are brilliant, they crack jokes about their health and other things they find funny, they enjoy their life, despite their problems, and they let nothing get them down.
If they ever needed help, we'd be glad to. We would know also, that they will not ask unless they really need it.
So far, they haven't!

Your dad has a lot of 'won't' not ' can't'  about him. He has lots of other choices open to him.

You're being a good son and a good dad.
You've pointed out to us, and your dad, how your dad has options.
Just believe it yourself.

[p123]

He's trying to trigger those guilt buttons - the ones he set up years ago.
I've been reading up on PD strategies, and it's false guilt. That's why it feels bad, but weird.
He can ring Sainsbury's anytime ( other supermarkets are available!).

We have an elderly couple living next door to us. They both have health issues. They do an online shop every week.We see the van arrive.
In this way they stay independent.
They are a lovely, lovely couple. They have a son who lives quite far away, and visits now and again.
Their day -to -day living,  they sort themselves. They've both been in hospital, and when one is, the other copes well. We usually only find out after the event. They are brilliant, they crack jokes about their health and other things they find funny, they enjoy their life, despite their problems, and they let nothing get them down.
If they ever needed help, we'd be glad to. We would know also, that they will not ask unless they really need it.
So far, they haven't!

Your dad has a lot of 'won't' not ' can't'  about him. He has lots of other choices open to him.

You're being a good son and a good dad.
You've pointed out to us, and your dad, how your dad has options.
Just believe it yourself.

Oh he tries so hard to trigger that guilt.... I mean who uses the would "HOPE you visit". I find it all a bit silly to be honest. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter if I visit or not.

Its not as if hes got no-one and never goes out. Hes been out playing Bowls this week with his friends!

Wish my Dad was more like that old couple. Even 10%. Unfortunately, he got to an age and thought "I'm not doing it" and that was it. It'd say 90% of the stuff he goes on about is what he wants not needs.

It took years but I'm getting there. My wife is a bit of a stroppy lady lol. But shes been fair with my Dad and she does give me grief if I worry about this too much lol.

[nanotech]

I think your wife maybe feels frustrated with the situation?
It's the way your dad sees her as competition, that can't be easy.
But it's difficult for you both.
It's hard trying to explain the dysfunction to anyone who hasn't been though that kind of upbringing.

[p123]

I think your wife maybe feels frustrated with the situation?
It's the way your dad sees her as competition, that can't be easy.
But it's difficult for you both.
It's hard trying to explain the dysfunction to anyone who hasn't been though that kind of upbringing.

Oh yes my wife can't stand him. I can't blame her at all.....

As far as shes concerned, like the way hes playing it AGAIN this weekend. Trying to guilt me to make me go with the "I HOPE" thing - she says if hes not going to behave properly then dont visit at all ever.

I think the thing that winds her up most is the way he has ZERO interest in the kids. He might mention them out of duty but thats it. If I take my daughter there he will literally say hello then ignore her.

She'll sit with headphones on her tab and he'll want my complete attetion for 30-45 mins while I got through all his post etc.
Hes actually got a list written down of stuff he needs me to discuss etc.

So, my kids are just a distraction from me giving him my full attention. But thats Dad. Instead of enjoying his old age hes just totally absorbed in making sure he gets what he wants.