Uitmatum to dad with NPD/OCPD traits

[_apparentlywicked]

Hi all. First post on the NC because I think that's how this is going to go.

Briefly dad has always been abusive. Is now bed bound but still hurting me emotionally when he can. It goes without saying that the abuse hasn't been addressed. He was more wantonly abusive last time I saw him a few weeks ago. I said at the time that he needed to apologise. He didn't.

He's behaving as always that nothing happened and has left multiple identical messages 'how are you hope you're well blah blah'. Still no apology although he told sib he has.

Now I realise an apology will do and mean nothing. I'm not waiting for an apology to reinstate a relationship. But at the same time just ignoring the messages doesn't feel good.

How does this letter sound?

"Hi dad

If you wish to have a relationship with me we will need to have a very honest talk about your behaviour when I was a child and as an adult. If you are able to talk about this leave me a message letting me know."

I will be very surprised if he is able to offer me this. I suspect he will ignore and continue to leave these 'everything is normal, nothing to see here' messages.

Or he may fully discard and fabricate a narrative that makes me the problem. However unless I get a positive response I feel I can then justifiably block his number. I almost feel like that now but I want to clean up the situation as best I can if you get me. I'm also aware I may get a vicious message so my partner will listen to any messages for me.

I'm assuming many of us have dealt with almost identical situations. Any thoughts?

[Starboard Song]

Having posted this here, please consider -- if you send something -- re-drafting it to protect your anonymity on this forum. We are a public, searchable site.

I am 4 1/2 years NC from my in-laws. I have thoughts. Lots of thoughts.

Apologies are formalism, and I don't think we ever win on or feel good about formalism. The other party too often just blames us ultimately, for something. And then they demand an apology back, and so on. But that said, I am in a very similar situation.

The first part of the way I formulate this is my own head is that I need to know that they agree at this time that certain facts are true and that certain behaviors were inappropriate. And if they ever showed up sounding contrite, I'd immediately be at it: "the last time we spoke, you said a couple of things I need to revisit with you." My argument is that I need to know their current understanding so I know whether I can trust my heart -- and my wife's and son's -- to them again.

The second point, to me, is that there are statutes of limitations for a reason. So I'll never go way back to before the crisis that ended our relationship. I won't explore my wife's childhood, and bring up instances from way back then. I think we must accept this: when we try this, we are only trying to maintain a modicum of connection and civility: we are no where near trying to obtain the full, loving and trusting relationship we desire. So we should accomodate their weaknesses as much as we can while protecting ourselves. By that I only mean this: if your father can have a conversation  about his recent outbursts, and can agree that he should behave better, maybe you leave your childhood unexplored with him. In part, I suspect this would also protect you. We've seen my MIL lies more -- or is just super-confused -- the more you go back in time. Hearing her thoughts on my wife's childhood was extremely upsetting to my wife.

Good luck. If you think this is headed towards NC, be careful to respect yourself and your own high standards for decency throughout. Going NC is not an event (though it is usually punctuated by one). It is a process. And shortcutting the process can leave you with doubts and guilt for a long time. Taking these decent steps are a gift to yourself and your future peace, and you owe yourself the best of that.

[_apparentlywicked]

Hi starboard. Yeah when I said he needed to apologise it was more about me setting a boundary. I think now I should have said it more explicitly. 'What you've said is unacceptable and I'm leaving.'.

I want to talk about my childhood for 2 reasons.  Firstly when I last saw him one of ways he tried to hurt me was telling me I used to say wicked things to him when I was a child that upset sib (GC). I'm wondering if his abuse is bubbling up unconsciously which is why he went back to it. Secondly it is the herd of elephants in the room. He was cruel and violent, often sadistic.

A few minutes before he got nasty he'd been telling me how people tell him he's a wonderful father. I can't stomach hearing that anymore. I usually just say nothing. I don't agree but don't make it obvious I don't.  I can't collude with him anymore that all is well.

I suppose I could not bother with the letter and just decide to set boundaries when I'm there. So if he says the thing about how great a father he is how do I demonstrate that I have a different reality without setting off a bomb?  If I go in with the emotional freedom to be authentic I get the feeling i'll be coming out pretty quickly. 😀

[Starboard Song]

Good morning. You laid that out perfectly, and that is the perfect case, it seems to me, for exploring your childhood. You need to know that he can be honest about it, and that is perfectly reasonable. To be honest, with that history I am impressed that you aren't straight to NC without passing Go. I too would have a hard time listening to such statements and not speaking out.

I'll let others pipe in, but want to assure you that you sound very level-headed and decent, and I wish you the best with this. You deserve peace of mind and a space to thrive.

[_apparentlywicked]

Thank you starboard. Such lovely words of encouragement. I'm lucky enough to have a lovely, wise and calm partner whose been listening to me talk and cry about this the last few weeks so I've got RL support too.

Why haven't I cut contact before? The way it's played out I fell pregnant soon after I left home. I was in free fall. Not looking after myself at all. So it's almost like I've not had time. If I haven't been looking after small kids I've been working full time until last year. There's more room in my life than I've had since I was a small child. I guess it was always going to bubble up. It's not like I've not thought about it periodically. But I just thought of him as severally depressed and lashing out indiscriminately.

However anything more than a cursory analysis has shown me this isn't it. If this was the case why is he never sorry? And some of the stuff he did isn't a lashing out thing. It's a sustained campaign to make me carry his bad feelings.

[FogDawg]

I will be very surprised if he is able to offer me this. I suspect he will ignore and continue to leave these 'everything is normal, nothing to see here' messages.

Or he may fully discard and fabricate a narrative that makes me the problem. However unless I get a positive response I feel I can then justifiably block his number. I almost feel like that now but I want to clean up the situation as best I can if you get me. I'm also aware I may get a vicious message so my partner will listen to any messages for me.

I'm assuming many of us have dealt with almost identical situations. Any thoughts?

Before I again blocked his number, my father phoned and said, "Hi. How are you doing? I can give you financial help if you get in touch with me. I would really appreciate a call. Bye." He knows full well that I have not been in a good place for a long, long time. No mention of anything being wrong, nor any effort exerted to fix it, merely offering to throw money my way in exchange for forgetting the past and allowing it to continue to repeat. He and my aunt who I also severed ties with consider me spoiled and ungrateful (he did the very minimum, giving me exactly what prisoners receive, which I should be thankful for?!). I paid for my own clothes once I was old enough to begin working, plus I offered my mother money toward groceries, even if it was not always accepted. I bought all of the food for the family the whole Summer my parents were out of work (going back to the heart attack situation recently mentioned in another thread) and never even received one thank you from pa (he has, however, repeatedly commended my slightly older cousin for doing the same for her parents). I never paid rent, making shelter the sole necessity of the three that he can irrevocably claim to have been the provider of. Clearly, I am an ingrate because I am not over the moon about having a single need met without having to reimburse him for it Rather than grow up in that house, completely devoid of affection, I would have rather been on the streets with a loving family. Others have seriously doubted that claim, but I have the feeling that many here can relate and will not question its sincerity.

Starboard Song has laid out a whole lot of helpful advice. A few years of being estranged (sorry) certainly offers greater clarity and an understanding of what works and what does not. Speaking from my limited experience, I can practically guarantee that you will somehow wind up labelled the cause of it all, _apparentlywicked. You are already fully justified in blocking your father's number. My suggestion is to not bother writing and mailing a letter asking him to recognize the abuse that you have been through, since there is a much higher probability of it not happening; you will not be given any sort of positive response, as you are hoping for, and the lack of one needs to be the catalyst that causes you to choose yourself and follow through with the NC.

[TwentyTwenty]

Im sorry you are going through this. I agree with the others here, and would offer my experience as some perspective.

Very similarly, I placed a boundary that was a requirement in order to move forward, in steps, if we were to work on finding some sort of a reconciliation and structure interaction moving toward mending our relationship.

The first step, was for nM go own, admit and be accountable for the witnessed abuse and attack on me.

She went wailing-attack mode, and said God was going to strike me down since I wouldn't forgive her, and I was a coward, evil and the worst person to ever exist in the family name lineage.

Needless to say, we've beeen NC since that time.. and I'm glad that the mask came off and I finally knew where I actually stood in their eyes.

Hope the best for you!

[FogDawg]

The first step, was for nM go own, admit and be accountable for the witnessed abuse and attack on me.

She went wailing-attack mode, and said God was going to strike me down since I wouldn't forgive her, and I was a coward, evil and the worst person to ever exist in the family name lineage.

Needless to say, we've beeen NC since that time.. and I'm glad that the mask came off and I finally knew where I actually stood in their eyes.

For having the audacity to request a form of penance and reparation - a mere owning of it, a true apology, a stop to offending behaviors, and serious effort made in the future if wanting to (re)build a relationship - we are deemed absolute heathens. Lately, I have learned exactly where I stand with regard to my family as well. Asking for support and calling them out for not getting it is now an unforgivable sin, I guess; I have been accused of projecting how I feel upon them, told that it is ridiculous, and asked when I have ever been there for any of them (deceased uncle included - my aunt had to throw that in). Stating knowledge of them talking behind my back is somehow the same as the act of them doing it *scratches head while attempting to understand that* and any hurtful words were not judgmental or critical because they love me (I now feel the radiance ). Going no contact is the only solution, sadly, a 'choice' that is forced upon us.

[Maisey]

If I were to write a letter to my MIL, I could see her using it as banner to wave in front of anyone she could find, twisting it up against me.

Just a thought.

M.

[GettingOOTF]

My experience with my family and my father in particular was that they used what I told them upset me to hone their abuse.

I spent a long time going back and forth on NC. I posted here a lot. I was originally going to tell them why and someone here said basically that if they could "hear" me they already would have.

We all walk our own path and this is a tough decision for anyone. My "advice" would be don't get your hopes up, don't expect any fundamental change but do all you think you need to do to feel comfortable with your choices. And of course we are all here to listen and support. There are no wrong choices here. We do the best we can with what we have at the time. It's a journey and you can't skip right to the end.

[_apparentlywicked]

I just blocked his number!

I figure I can unblock if I change my mind. He won't know he's blocked it will just go to voicemail. I wanted to know what it felt like. I feels great.

There's something symbolic about blocking him on Valentine's 🤔😀

[FogDawg]

Kudos to you, _apparentlywicked. That is not an easy thing to do on any day and you have reason to be proud of yourself.

[_apparentlywicked]

Thanks fogdawg.

He left a message last night. Identical to last 8 but with the new addition of asking if I've been doing much decorating. This is it? He's aware now that I'm not willing to talk so he thinks the addition of asking about decorating is going to tip me over the edge into feeding him? 😀

My partner might visit today. We were laughing about about partner covertly conducting the psychopathology test on him. Might struggle to ask about any history of torturing small animals in a casual chitty chatty way though.

I said to partner about what to say if dad quizzes him about me. Partner says he won't. He's right. He won't dare. He'll say the bare minimum like 'hows apparently?' and partner will say 'shes fine, busy etc' and dad will be happy with that. And it literally won't be weird for dad.

Partners going because there's only sib to visit othrtwise and we don't want sib feeling it's all down to her. It's better for everyone if we just go through the motions. Although behind it I'm now actively grieving and letting go of what I thought was my dad.

How are you Dawg?

[FogDawg]

Sure thing. They put just so much effort into attempting to repair the relationship, don't they? As for the test, "This is a required question, though it may or may not apply to you. It has to be asked either way. Growing up, which type of animal was your favorite to torture and why?" Your partner is correct; bare minimum all the way. Good luck with the visit, _apparentlywicked. I am alright at the moment, thanks, though that is always subject to change.

[_apparentlywicked]

Hi Fogdawg

Partner didn't go as sib was going and it makes sense to stagger any necessary visits

Dad left another message last night so two this weekend. Still the same rigid script.

I'm still having new revelations. I remembered that when I told him me and partner were expecting our first he said 'oh dear'. I just shrivelled. I can't remember what my response was at the time but I was obviously deeply hurt. I couldn't face it happening again 3 years later so I got my partner to tell him when I was expecting our son.

I think at the time I tried to rationalize it as he's worried about me on some level. It's heartbreaking. The mental effort the child goes through to make believe that their parent loves them.

He didn't say oh dear because he was somehow worried about me. He said oh dear because he hates the thought of good things happening to me. He hates me. He hates my children. He wishes I didn't have any. He wishes I had nothing. He wishes he could take everything away from me. (There is something really uncomfortable about a father withholding congratulations to his youngest daughter like that. I do think he has traits of aspd too)


This situation is a bit like the times he tipped all my belongings into a massive pile. But this time I'm just walking away. I'm not sorting it out. I'm leaving it with him. He assumes as always that I'll comply. It'll be forgotten. Nope. Big nope.

[FogDawg]

He didn't say oh dear because he was somehow worried about me. He said oh dear because he hates the thought of good things happening to me. He hates me. He hates my children. He wishes I didn't have any. He wishes I had nothing. He wishes he could take everything away from me. (There is something really uncomfortable about a father withholding congratulations to his youngest daughter like that. I do think he has traits of aspd too)

This situation is a bit like the times he tipped all my belongings into a massive pile. But this time I'm just walking away. I'm not sorting it out. I'm leaving it with him. He assumes as always that I'll comply. It'll be forgotten. Nope. Big nope.

That is so sad. How the hell a parent can wish their own child the worst and act so terribly is beyond me. Hugs to you.

Hopefully, sooner or later, he will wind up forgotten, no longer occupying so much as a single thought of yours, _apparentlywicked.

[GettingOOTF]

When my sister miscarried a baby she'd tried a long time to conceive my father laughed and said "she's far too old anyway".

My father has said "oh dear" to me too. I could hear his tone when I read your post.

It's really hard to come to terms with the fact that you were never loved. It's amazing the excuses we come up with for them. 

[Sweetbriar]

I wonder if the "oh dears" as I've had it too from my father, in various forms (and my mother bc she hates that I love dogs) .... but are the "oh dears" the voice of the master manipulators in them. They must always control their child's life. So if they didn't tell you to get pregnant, and it was your decision, they automatically think it's the wrong decision.  I hate the "oh dears" !!!

[Honey_B]

Reading about all the things your father has said and done over time, I think you a being very patient with him. Perhaps too patient. But thats your call

Of course you said some mean things to him when you were a child  All children do that to their parents at some point, its part of the normal development. Testing boundries! Thats what children do! He should be adult enough to know that.

But thats often the problem with narcissistic parents, they are children themselves. Their emotional development has not progressed past that of a 5 year old.

[_apparentlywicked]

Morning.

I'm leaning towards NC. I just don't see any benefit to even trying to have some semblance of a relationship with him. Even if I'm totally pragmatic about it, in reality the only thing I can give him is supply. And because I'm a scapegoat it's always going to be poor quality supply.

Conversely while the benefits for him may be small the potential harm to me is too much.

Also I can't get the look of almost arousal he had when he was saying these things. He was enjoying it. There was this disconnect between what he was saying and his face. Like be should have looked hurt or sad if he genuinely felt hurt, but he looked excited. And I feel sick at the thought of being near him.

But with that all said I'm definitely making progress. The last few weeks I've been reading and talking a lot. Whereas this weekend I've mainly been pulling my house apart and reorganising my rooms. Naturally I'm going to attribute this to the outworking of my healing inner child 😀🦋❤️