Thinking of talking to DD

[NumbLotus]

Our children shouldn't have to "handle" their disordered parents. But that is still reality for many.

I have validated DD but not given her any tips for changing any way she interacts with her father. If I did, I'd make it clear it was totally up to her, just some ideas that might reduce friction.

The problem is, everything I can think to say sucks. I've reduced friction by not asking for anything but groceries and rides to medical appointments. Also by not speaking unless spoken to. And just taking everything on the chin and not reacting. Is that advice I want to give to DD14? HELL NO.

And yet, that is no doubt the message she is getting anyway, and she is paying a price for asking for needs and wants.

[xredshoesx]

she may be mature enough for you to ask her 'so what do you think about how things are going at home with dad, me and you?' and then let her response shape the rest of the conversation. 

[SparkStillLit]

I have suggested MC and grey rock tactics to my children (15 & 19). I have the backing of my T for suggesting these to my kids. They are free to take my suggestions or no. Referring to another thread, I also feel terrible TERRIBLE for all this, and I feel like DD may have been driven to join the military because of it, like she couldn't think of any other way to get out.

[NumbLotus]

I'm sorry.

I do think it's priceless to have at least the one supportive parent. As opposed to none. My best friend might still be alive today, for instance.

I guess I can tell her to MC/GR, which would basically focus on not reacting and not taking it too personally.

I was wondering if I should suggest ways to reduce conflict in the first place. Like if he says no to something just drop it instead of pushing. Not that I think her pushing a bit deserves the reponse she gets. When she pushes me I say no firmly and she knows I mean business. No blowups required.

DD is fairly thick skinned and until fairly recently she has told me she doesn't care if H yells at her, if she wants something she's going to ask and Dad can be "weird" (her word) all he wants.

But lately I have seen her more upset. I don't know what changed; if he is telling more or in a different way ir if she's more mature and starting to see how ridiculous it is, or what.

I have to admit, in the past, I would sometimes ask her to ask H for something. He used to be more pliable with her than me, then when that stopped she told me, as I said above, she didn't care. I think I should tell her to run everything by me now. I can either do the asking myself and take the heat, or at least give input about best approach.

I am furious just thinking about having to be a meat shield for my daughter against her father for sins such as "Dad, can we get some doughnuts" or "Dad, my computer crashed" (and he is a computer guy).

I think again I should leave but if I do, thier problems will only magnify. If H has to drive her somewhere she is already used to waking him up and making shre they leave on time  If she is in a diferent house waiting for hr dad and having no control she will be anxious and that will make her angry and they will blow sky high. And he doesn't answer the phone or anything so it would be a mess.

[Cascade]

Maybe you could send your child an article on how to get along with difficult people, or just look at one together. I've found that some of these are really good regarding how to deal with PD's even if the article never mentions it that. You may not want the article to mention NPD or another PD in case your daughter says something about that to her dad. Interestingly enough, my oldest child was better at getting along with my husband than I was, because she intuitively learned how to do medium chill before I ever came across that technique.

[Lauren17]

I do think you should talk to her. I like red shoes suggestion if asking her how she feels about the situation.
I think that providing her with tools to use on the future is just as important as acknowledging  her feelings.
I've talked to DD18 about MC and GR both in context of an interaction with her father and in dealing with her peers. I'm always cautious about providing the tools as an option and then letting her decide how to use them.
I know that when I was her age, my moms response to me was often. "He said X because of your statement Y. You shouldn't have said Y, that's what caused the problem." I know that she was trying to help, but what I learned was to accept responsibility for others actions. I don't want my girls to learn that lesson.

[NumbLotus]

There's two conflict scenarios.

1) Asking for something.

H is nearly nonfunctional. Asking for him to do something sets him off. I charitably see it as a legitimate serious illness where normal life is not doable for him, and his PD protects his ego by not seeing how disordered he is and deflecting all issues.

So if we ask for a ride to a store a mile away to get something we have been doing withoit for months, we are "constantly demanding and no wonder he has no time." When in fact he sleeps all day and stares at a screen all night.

DD hardly asks for anything but sometimes something comes up. H might grudgingly do it. Or he might bite her head off for asking.

All I can think of is to suggest she always come to me for needs/requests. I will either ask H myself and take the heat, or I might suggest to DD it's not gonna fly.

I will take the heat but I have to admit feeling reluctant. H has a mental list of alllll the demands I constantly place on him. Like, he went grocery shopping just last week and DD had doc appts TWICE this month. Clearly I am a demanding bitch, constantly running him around. So I dread asking him for more and giving him more ammo. I am angry typing this. Just so angry.

Of course it's all my fault anyway so I guess there really is no difference. His mental list isn't tied to reality. It doesn't matter how infrequent it is, if he can remember it at all, it's "all the time;" it doesn't matter who asked or if I was even aware of it, it was me; it doesn't matter how crucial or out of my control a thing was, like a visit to the emergency room, it's still "demands" placed on him and not LIFE.

2) Having an emotion

If I was angry describing the last issue, hoo boy, I'm gonna blow on this one.

DD has anxiety. Some of the anxiety makes perfect sense. If you are late picking her up from school and you are not answering your phone, she is going to have an anxiety attack. And I don't blame her one bit.

Well, we can all screw up. So when he lulls up and her face is upset and she is upset, he will of course say "sorry I was late, honey. I'm going to do X to make sure it never happens again."

HA. No, he will yell at her all the ways it was her fault he was late - she didn't remind him at the right time or whatever. And it will escalate. He might even do some fatherly things like call her "stupid."

I got nothing for this. She can't MC, she's a child having an anxiety attack for a reasonable reason. He need to take care of her, not the other way around.

Fuck you, H.

[Poison Ivy]

I think that if your goal is to protect your daughter, it would be okay to talk to her about her dad and explain that you think it is unlikely that he will show her empathy and provide her with support.  You don't actually know why he is this way, so it's probably best to not offer theories to explain his behavior. 

[NumbLotus]

Yeah. That makes sense.

[Poison Ivy]

This issue is very relevant for me.  My ex-husband, father of our two now-adult children, had and has some serious problems with parenting and communicating (although his physical health seems to be much better than your husband's, NumbLotus).  As is true in many families, he sometimes was a good-enough parent, and I made many mistakes. But he started to withdraw when our children were in their early teens.  For at least the past 12 years, I've often had to think about how much I should say to our children about their dad.  I didn't want to dis him, but I also didn't think it was my responsibility to protect him or cover up for his dysfunctioning and bad choices.  The effect of his behavior on our children is the worst, most painful thing about his and his FOO's personality and other disorders.

[Lauren17]

The effect of his behavior on our children is the worst, most painful thing about his and his FOO's personality and other disorders.

This is too true!

[NumbLotus]

So H had an episode on DD today which I unsuccessfully tried neutral diplomacy on (I didn't witness the initial issue but he asked me to talk to her).

He obviously reacted to neutrality by saying I "always take her side" and he just had a PD fit about it.

Thankfully it still wasn't the RAGE that disappeared in December.

He left for work and I waited a bit for DD to calm down (she calms down best alone in her room). When she came out, I tried to talk with her.

I didn't get very far, she was a brick wall. It's not that she doesn't talk to me, she does, but talking about FEELINGS has long been a failure.

I think I'm just back to the validate-and-shield plan.

She has perfected the art of distracting herself from her feelings. She calms down to a point, then she calls a friend and now they are laughing.

She is able to discuss OTHER disordered people that she knows, that's just interesting and not so personal to her. So I might slip in stuff about such people invalidating feelings, emotional dysregulation, etc,, but about other people and not her dad.

I called to get an appointment for her to see someone about anxiety (and any other issues she may want to discuss) but the practice is full right now and they haven't gotten back to me in a month. SIGH. And, no, we can't go elsewhere.

[Lauren17]

Well done, NumbLotus! Sounds like a beneficial discussion.

[NumbLotus]

Really? I considered that a failure. 

Ugh, and the roller coaster continues. Shortly after I wrote the above post, H texted an apology from work. I plan to ask DD later if she got an apology too, I'm guessing yes because his apology to me included both of us.

And the next day, his day off, he just about stood on his head trying to be a good dad and husband.

Fortunately, I don't ride the rollercoaster anymore. If he has a good day, that's nice, doesn't mean anything.

When he wakes up each afternoon, I never know what I'm going to get.

[losingmyself]

Any time I try to talk to my DD about my H's behavior, she sees it as defending him, and shuts down. I don't know the right words to say.. She is 17 and very set in her beliefs.

[Lauren17]

Really? I considered that a failure. 

I don't think it was a failure.
In The Verbally Abusive Relationship, the author presents a theory that basically says when a child grows up with dysfunction in the family, there is a major difference between someone who grows up to be able to address their feelings and someone who doesn't. That difference is what he calls a sympathetic observer.  Basically, it is another person in that child's life who acknowledges what's happened to the child and how it makes them feel.
I've probably gotten the terms all wrong, but the point is that even if your DD ignores you and locks herself in her room, she still heard you acknowledge the situation. And that's a huge positive.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[NumbLotus]

Wow, that is a great observation, thanks.

So even if we are not having comfortable conversations, it's getting in there in a way that will help her identify and value her feelings.

And a mother's voice is very powerful. I can plant a voice in her head that says, literally, "you have a right to your feelings" and other things.

Also, not even just in response to conflict. "You did a great job on that." "That's a great idea." Etc.

You know, I think I should also take literal note of what H says when he goes off so I can specifically counterprogram it. For example, I know he's called her stupid at least once, maybe more.

I know firsthand that apologies, no matter how sincere, do not overpower repeated, emphatic, yelled messages. Of course, neither will my voice, but my repeated messages will be stronger than just H's apology.

[SeaBreeze]

Hang in there NumbLotus! I am sure your daughter can see that you have her back.

I like that term: "sympathetic observer". My father was the sympathetic observer when I was dealing with my uNPD mom, from my birth until her death in my middle aged years. (He is also my "good enough" parent. Not perfect but much easier to deal with than my mother was.) Just knowing he heard me, saw me, recognized my frustration and her behaviors, helped me know I wasn't crazy, I wasn't bad, I wasn't an ungrateful brat. That is the role I've tried to take with my own children in dealing with both exNPDh and current H. Yes, still repeating cycles, but once the FOG lifts, we can try to balance the insanity as much as we are able and hopefully break the cycle for the next generation?

(I need to re-read The Verbally Abusive Relationship. That book put me on the path, years ago, of lifting the FOG. I totally forgot the author dicusses  "sympathetic observer"!)

[NumbLotus]

Thank you for that, it is really good to hear confirmation that one adequate parent really can make a difference.