They can smell it, don’t they?

Started by candy, February 20, 2020, 06:08:18 PM

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candy

DH has been opening up a lot in therapy lately. He even took his thoughts to our marriage counselor and we talked them through.
For the first time I heard my DH say out loud that his M is mentally sick, has a personality disorder, that he was emotionally abused as a child, that he was made responsible for her emotions since childhood, that both parents later discarded him, etc. This is a huge step.

At the same time DH feels immensely pressured to do something to improve the relationship between his PDparents and him, his parents and I. Our counselor and DH's individual T are gently guiding DH towards better coping patterns, exploring ways to take the pressure he feels off.

I am NC since 1.5 years with the IL's. I am pregnant with our second and my whole support team (including T and DH) backs up my decision to stay NC to at least some weeks postpartum. DH is caught between loyalty towards me and his hope to reconcile with his parents for our child and stbchild to have a relationship with their grandparents.

During the last 1.5 years DH had occasionally told his parents we were willing to try another clarifying discussion among adults. The IL's ignored DH's request until the last holidays. Then suddenly they were trying to rush us into meeting them.
MIL sent 2 urgent requests to DH, commanding us to meet in the week before Christmas...
:meh:  What plans could we possibly have had?

Most of the communication went through DH. To me nothing the IL's wrote to DH sounded genuine. They do not want to talk to us, they want to own messages they can show to extended family. They want to feed their narrative: ,,Look how hard we tried! Candy and DH are being unreasonable. Woe is me, the abandoned grandparents."

DH had to revoke the offer to talk when I found out about the pregnancy. DH stated we couldn't make it to find an appointment and talk until further notice.


Fast forward to yesterday. uNPDFil texted me: what's on with your offer to talk? As our suggestions didn't suit you well enough, it's on you to find alternate dates!!

I felt my heartbeat increasing. Did some yoga, forwarded the text to DH, watched my beautiful child sleep and went to bed.

What is it with those PDs, I mean, do they have a sixth sense when to interfere? Raise the pressure to levels DH knows from the time before he put all this work in his journey Out of the FOG? DH is vulnerable right now. And why does FIL's behavior still bother me at all? I should know better by now. Obviously I should really block their emails.

This is wrong on so many levels. How does a brain like that even work? :o

It's 1 am and you decide it's an appropriate time to text your DIL whom you haven't contacted in 1.5 years? Why contact me at all? Let me guess, FIL, you had a dysfunctional fight with your dysfunctional wife, and you needed to let of some steam? SG DIL and scapegoat son would be convenient recipients of your toxic aggression, wouldn't they?

A few weeks ago your son informed you about me, his wife, being pregnant. And you haven't commented on this, you did not send any congratulations, nor did NPDMIL, your wife. You just go straight on to demand that scapegoat DIL offering dates? Well played, Mr Evil  :applause:

Away with the unnecessary pleasantries of saying hello or goodbye or how are you! You are not interested at all, why would you pretend?

Come on, FIL, it's not that hard to understand. There is no ball in anyone's court! I don't agree you even put it anywhere near our court!
DH told you we were not having a meeting with you until further notice. That means we will notice you in case we'll have a change of mind. Which we won't!

Last and least of the answers I did NOT send: please, FIL, stop the drunk texting!

Wow, I haven't been this disgusted in a while. It never gets old with them PD IL's ?  :sadno:

sparrow2

I would block them so they can't call or text you.. Let them go through DH. I would also question why it would be a good thing for your children to start a relationship with emotionally abusive grandparents. It's of course up to you two to decide what's important for your family. I personally would avoid that.. if someone cannot act right to me, they're not getting to my child.

PeanutButter

#2
Quote from: sparrow2 on February 21, 2020, 07:51:48 AM
I would block them so they can't call or text you.. Let them go through DH. I would also question why it would be a good thing for your children to start a relationship with emotionally abusive grandparents. It's of course up to you two to decide what's important for your family. I personally would avoid that.. if someone cannot act right to me, they're not getting to my child.
:yeahthat:
100% AGREED!
I personally made this error in judgement exposing innocent, helpless, and vulnerable children to emotionally abusive grandparents. I was so in the FOG; I call it my 'training'. I was to beleive up is down, down is up, the sky is green and the grass is blue, and  the abuse was my fault not theirs so there was no way they would do the same thing to my child   :wacko:
So please, please, protect your babies! I didnt with detrimental effects!  :'(
If there is a hidden seed of evil inside of children adults planted it there -LundyBancroft  Self-awareness is the ability to take an honest look at your life without any attachment to it being right or wrong good or bad -DebbieFord The greatest of faults is to be conscious of none -Thomas Carlyle

appaloosa

I would never expose my children to these people. Why should the people most precious in your life be exposed to abusive grandparents? The happy family your H is fantasizing about is never going to exist. These people don't magically change.

Sidney37

I'll agree with those above.  Exposing my kids to the PD triangulation and manipulation was one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made.  My kids are still youngish and healing, but it was a huge mistake. 

My oldest child has been in therapy for anxiety and sleep issues since she was very young.  The first therapist said DDs anxiety was because of my relationship with my mother!  WHAT?? I thought.  This therapist must be crazy.   My mom lives hours away.  I was glad we were moving out of state so i could ditch this crazy therapist.   :stars:  The elementary school social worker suggested that I stop inviting my parents for Christmas because my daughter's school anxiety skyrocketed in December.  I blamed it on excitement about Santa.  I was clearly in denial.   DD couldn't be influenced by PDm.   She only saw her a few weeks a year.   But PDm talked to us daily.  She influenced and triangulated by phone daily.  And because of my training not to have boundaries with PDm, I had terrible boundaries with DD.  I had a hard time saying no to incorrect behavior.

DD continued with anxiety issues for years.   She's in high school.  I went VVVLC/NC with uNPDm almost a year ago.   Guess whose anxiety is almost gone?   Guess whose therapist said that we can just check in as needed rather than attend weekly sessions?  Guess who is getting along with her younger brother who PDm was making all sorts of negative comments about behind my back?  Guess who is breezing through tough classes, sports and music? 

PDs can be subtle and manipulative.  My PDm seemed like the involved grandmother who wanted to talk daily.   The in-laws only talked to my kids a few times a year.   The interest seemed fabulous, but it wasn't.  Keep those kids safe when you still can before relationships are established.   

roughdiamonds1


[/quote]
:yeahthat:
100% AGREED!
I personally made this error in judgement exposing innocent, helpless, and vulnerable children to emotionally abusive grandparents. I was so in the FOG; I call it my 'training'. I was to beleive up is down, down is up, the sky is green and the grass is blue, and  the abuse was my fault not theirs so there was no way they would do the same thing to my child   :wacko:
So please, please, protect your babies! I didnt with detrimental effects!  :'(
[/quote]

Peanut butter, would you mind explaining what kind of detrimental affects you experienced with your children after going through this?
I'm in this position with my children and trying to figure out what kind of contact MIL will have (I'm NC). sorry to hijack...

PeanutButter

#6
 I also was deeply in denial. This was more comfortable for me emotionally than facing the truth. If I were to have been able to make the decision in the best interest of my children I would have needed to come out of that denial. Hearing of someone else's specific terrible effects of their experience would NOT have gotten me clearer on what to do. But what would have made it clear was; to honestly evaluate and list the following: all of the behaviors that I knew these would be grandparents practiced. All of the ways I and others experienced a relationship with them. A list of the emotional wounds I and other had from these experiences. A list of the descrepencies between what they said and what they did. A list of the attitudes and belief systems that they had been modeling all of their life.
Then I would not have been able to find a single solitary reason for even considering allowing them access to my children.
Its this simple: what they have done; they will do! What they think; they will say! What they believe they will make known!
What I felt my child will feel. What I saw, my child will see. If there was favortism; there will be favortism. If there was alleienation, there will be alleienation. If there was emotional incest, there will be emotional incest. If there was control, there will be control. Etc.etc.
Whatever they feel about you will also be transferred in one way or another to the child.
I sincerely hope this helps roughdiamonds1
If there is a hidden seed of evil inside of children adults planted it there -LundyBancroft  Self-awareness is the ability to take an honest look at your life without any attachment to it being right or wrong good or bad -DebbieFord The greatest of faults is to be conscious of none -Thomas Carlyle

bloomie

Quote from: CandyLast and least of the answers I did NOT send: please, FIL, stop the drunk texting!
Oh boy, this is what I was wondering when I was reading through your post. Was he up late drunk texting?

Quote from: CandyFor the first time I heard my DH say out loud that his M is mentally sick, has a personality disorder, that he was emotionally abused as a child, that he was made responsible for her emotions since childhood, that both parents later discarded him, etc. This is a huge step....What is it with those PDs, I mean, do they have a sixth sense when to interfere? Raise the pressure to levels DH knows from the time before he put all this work in his journey Out of the FOG? DH is vulnerable right now. And why does FIL's behavior still bother me at all? I should know better by now. Obviously I should really block their emails.

We have experienced very similar timing and I believe that in our own case the family system is hyper sensitive to any shift in their family members and have no healthy instincts to cope and work through things.

You and your DH are making significantly different decisions regarding the proximity his parents have to you and your family. That is going to create a whole lot of angst that emotionally immature and mentally unstable people are most likely going to look outside of themselves for someone to blame and be responsible and make it better for them. :no:

And all of this.. is fighting. Fighting for control and their position which is slipping through their fingers as you both take steps to protect yourselves and your little ones from harm's way and get some good help working through complicated and layered issues.

Stay the course and keep making these good decisions and supporting and loving each other through the tough work of healing. You are setting healthy and appropriate limits with unreliable people. I am really sorry this message got through and thankful you have put a stop to this happening again. :hug:
The most powerful people are peaceful people.

The truth will set you free if you believe it.

candy

Thank you, sparrow2, PeanutButter, appaloosa, Sidney37, for reminding me that my decision to keep my child away from abusive grandparents still is the right thing to do!

Our current status as a FOC with my IL's is NC for me and DD, VLC for DH.
In fact I cut ties with them after my MIL had gone physically with me over the whereabouts of DD and the fallout. DH and I tried to explain our boundaries to the IL's which ended with them flying into full blown narcissistic rage in our home, MIL smashing a wall and FIL and MIL yelling at us with our then 10 month old DD present. We asked them to stop the aggressive and abusive behavior with respect to the child. They told us they were done with us and left, smashing doors on their way out.

This was followed by silent treatment. I let it slip into NC for me and DD.
As you all agreed: to toxic for me, too toxic for my babies!

I started on this forum after I had watched the IL's escalate, I was trying to make sense of it after all. I found out NC was the name for what I was doing, and there were others like me, like us who had tried to please unpleaseable people beyond recognition of our own values.

It has been so very helpful to read stories similar to mine when even close friends couldn't imagine someone was capable of what I had experienced with my IL's. I felt reassured and validated when members here told me to stay the course.

candy

roughdiamonds1, I don't think you've been hijacking at all. What could possibly go wrong if you act against your intuition? It's a legitimate question :bigwink:

PeanutButter gave some great advice, I think. It is spot on.

Quote from: PeanutButter on February 22, 2020, 10:46:35 AM
What I felt my child will feel. What I saw, my child will see. If there was favortism; there will be favortism. If there was alleienation, there will be alleienation. If there was emotional incest, there will be emotional incest. If there was control, there will be control. Etc.etc.
Whatever they feel about you will also be transferred in one way or another to the child.

I have a list of behaviors and unhealthy beliefs I recognized over the years, too. I journal. And I store the toxic written communication addressed to DD and our family - I will never show them to my children as their only aim is to harm the relationships within my FOC, but if I ever doubt my memory, I will revisit them.

I have witnessed my IL's telling my DH he is a failure who will never succeed in life. Despite this isn't true I imagined how it could affect my children listening to their grandparents talking about their dad in such a derogatory way.
I also imagined my children listening to the IL's smear campaign about me. No way I am ever going to give it try.

My MIL said out loud she was loving my DD more than DH or I did. Of course, this was a ridiculous thing to say for an adult. Anyway, she said it in front of my baby DD. I couldn't help time lapse mode take over my envision of the future - what will an older child think? Will she believe her grandmother?

On another occasion MIL was opening greeting cards and coupons. She gave one to my baby. The little one instantly started to put it in her mouth. I told MIL to please take the coupon away from DD, I didn't want her to get hurt by sharp edges or swallow coloured paper. MIL whisked my DD away with her, whispering: yes, mom is mean, she doesn't want you to have that beautiful gift grandma gave you. No worries, you can have all the fun with grandma.

Red flag for me. DD is a toddler today, those last lines would definitely work on her. I could see triangulation and manipulation start at an early age.

Similar lines from MIL when she gave sugared fruit to our then 9 month old baby. We had explicitly asked them not to. FIL took pictures of the scene and emailed them to me later. Yes, you read correctly: my FIL photo documented the violations of our parenting rules. I received quite a collection of photos, caption: great memories of DD, during the first month of our firstborns life when we were still in contact with the IL's.

I did not and do not believe MIL or FIL would have changed their attitude or behavior with my child getting older. That's the wishful thinking DH is recovering from with therapy.

It's not a single incident, it's the pattern that's abusive. For me and my FOC the IL's started slightly but escalated quickly within months. People are different though, there's no way to foresee the future. From your other posts I understand you are seeking validation to trust your healthy suspicions concerning your MIL. I would assume you are on the right track!

candy

Yes, it is tough and we are truly working through it.
I thank you for your encouragement, Bloomie! It is tremendously helpful to have a place like this where there is a shared perception of how a "simple" text like my FIL's can get under one's skin.

I am glad DH never questioned we would NOT AGAIN expose our child to a potentially escalative situation with NPDMIL and uNPDFIL. It is non-negotiable for me, and I feel that deep down DH is relieved to see the mother of his child having firm boundaries.
He wasn't educated to say no.

I don't want to be the one who asks my DH to choose between his parents and me. I haven't signed up to compete with his mother. To me that kind of competition is a false understanding of the social and emotional role of wife versus mother. DH prioritizes our marriage.

I commiserate with the child DH is towards his parents and I truly wish it would be possible for them to establish a relationship among adults that spares him from the hurt of former years. I also understand why DH would like to see his parents be loving grandparents. I cannot magically make DH see that MIL and FIL aren't capable to be the parents, or grandparents, he has longed for. It's his work to be done.

That said I have not shut the door towards the IL's completely. Technically I am NC. But I have offered a general willingness to address and solve our conflict with MIL and FIL if!!! they meet basic requirements. A long term goal could be VVLC with supervised visits in public spaces, both parents present. It's a possible theoretical goal at the end of a slowly and carefully taken approximation.

The thing is I just don't believe my IL's have the skills to walk that way, do the work. It's their way or the highway. They expect us to bow to them.

Anyhow, if they were willing to meet requirements, those would be: treat each other respectfully and politely, apologize for past behavior, respect our parenting choices, don't question DH's choice of marrying me, don't try divide and conquer within my FOC, consistently show improved behavior for a prolonged time, agree to wait as long as we need to feel safe again before we consider reintroducing our child.
I am hormonal and will be for a while, I don't feel like exposing myself during a vulnerable time like this. It would be to appropriate to respect my wish.

DH is on his own way Out of the FOG though. When I first posted I worried DH would maybe appreciate his F reaching out. During our last counseling session he had mentioned he was waiting for any of his parents to actually proof they were willing to reconcile by showing some action. Fortunately DH didn't consider the drunk text to be proof of anything else than dysfunctional and inappropriate behavior.
FIL did send him the exact email that got through to me. DH has been disgusted of FIL as well and was sorry for his F approaching me like this. We set up a folder for unwanted email yesterday  :chestbump: