Getting worse - doing some really strange things

[p123]

I think Lkdrymom's response is made of win - and it will put your dad on notice:    if he keeps it up, he's only going to have himself to blame when he winds up in a home. 

Note:  A  home.  Not *your* home.   

Don't worry about what others think - and don't take your dad at face value about your brother calling 3 times a day.  He probably hasn't even called once and doesn't know your dad is "sick."

And yes, it IS exhausting!  I went through this weekly with unBPD Didi and her freaking "caaaaaaaaaaancer!" scares, once she figured out that her usual aches and pains just didn't do it for me.  She went for the BIG gun - caaaaaaancer!    - thinking I HAD to drop everything and rush to her bedside - but instead, I stayed here and just wanted to bang my head against the wall, because it felt so damned good when I stopped!   

They think it's cancer!  It could be cancer!  It might be cancer!  Everything points to cancer!  They suspect cancer!  The symptoms are the same as cancer!  They're ruling out cancer!  They can't be sure it isn't cancer!  They're testing for cancer!  All signs point to cancer!  It could be cancer!  They can't say for certain it isn't cancer!   It's suspicious of cancer!  They are worried it's CANCER!   

O.  M.  F.  G.   

Didi wanted everybody to run!  Rush!  Panic!  Live in Fire Drill mode, where nobody has any information other than what she told them about it might be caaaaaancer, again, some more- and once cancer was actually ruled out, she didn't want anybody to know.

Trying to get *that* information out of her was like pulling teeth and came couched with the doctors not definitively ruling out cancer for that body part/area  OR came with yet another cancer scare! 

It's her lung!  No, it's her armpit!  Her nose!  Her stomach!  She's riddled with it!  It's her chin!  Her bones!  Her liver! 

Didi never ran out of body parts that could  be cancerous  - but I ran out of patience and would respond with Medium Chill and, "That's a shame.  I'm sure you'll keep me posted." 

Honestly, that was about all the compassion I could muster.    A part of me wanted to laugh at her and a part of me wanted to throttle her - but NO part of me felt sympathy or empathy.

I felt disgust and, "Jesus lady!  Give it a fucking rest, will you?!"

I don't understand why they never figure out they're not only burning us out, but pushing us away and making our emotions run   cold toward them.

Didi always acted like, "Now I've got her!" - but when I didn't respond the way she wanted, it was like, "Huh wha!!?  I'll show her!  I'll do the same thing, over and over again, until I get my way!" 

Your dad is pretty much doing the same thing - and yes, I remember Didi's Sick Voice that was conveniently forgotten about 2 minutes into a conversation, when I said something she didn't like (being busy and not being able to deliver food  ) AND the way she'd shamble/shuffle along on her cane, like she could barely move - only to take off race-walking like a shot if she saw something in a shop window that she liked! 

I often wondered if Didi thought I was stupid, or had the attention span of a goldfish.  I realize now it was probably more of a case of her not being able to keep the mask in place - and not being nearly half as clever as she thought she was. 

And she probably thought I'd overlook so much because of the FOG - I didn't, I wouldn't and I *couldn't.*  You're gonna act like that?

I'm very busy and can't get away.  No, I really can't.  I'll see what I can do, but it' s not looking good. 

And that was *all* Didi got from me until she did us all a favor and popped off.

Once you get to the point you're annoyed and have NO patience for any of this crap, you'll really start making progress in putting up boundaries.   

You won't CARE if he's angry, hurt or put-out - because you know you're not putting up the boundary to cause those emotions.  You're putting up the boundaries because you're sick of being taken advantage of, used, and treated like you're stupid and have nothing better to do.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

If your dad is that upset, maybe he'll find somebody else to use and leave you alone. 

Thanks WI. Spot on - when I get the ill thing now I feel ZERO compassion. I just think "here we go again!"
And like you said the Sick Voice and the 2" stumble. Are you kidding me? Its just so obvious.

Some days I do find it funny - its like watching a comedy and see how he does it. Some days I do get way TOO annoyed with whats hes doing.

But, as I've always said, fair play to never gives up. Relentless to be fair....

At the moment, I really don't care if hes upset. I'm still not up to telling him straight though - because I know that'll mean weeks of phone calls "Oh you're so good to me", "I didnt meant to upset you", "Im so ashamed of myself". Seen it before.

Sucks the life out of me.

[p123]

Once you're honest with yourself about how little they care about you and how manipulative they're happy to be it really is the end game.

I just remembered how quickly dad started using manipulation again after a heart attack. We'd spent the first week sleeping on the floor of the hospital because we thought he was going to die at any moment. Anyway a couple of weeks later and he's pulling through but wants to be at home already (ignoring the fact he can't walk) just expecting us to organise whatever he wants regardless of how unreasonable.

He says to me 'if you love me, and I think you love me, you'd get me in a taxi home'. He overstressed the 'think'

Such a slap in the face when me and sib had been sobbing on eachother about him. Such a total b#####d.

God if I could go back now I KNOW him.

OMG thats just awful!

[_apparentlywicked]

Yup. Just total lack of thought about me as a feeling being. Just utter raw manipulation of the feelings that we have that they don't! Using our humanity against us for their own gain. But there is a lack of foresight because they lose so much and end up with very few people and most of them have only been in their life for a few months because people move away. He never learns.  So he has to pile on the protective projection.

[Adrianna]

Yeah dad has needed to see drs so much since he retired 20 years ago. I'm beginning to think medical people are his favoured supply. He has no one else in his life apart from me and sib and I've now had enough of his abuse.

He got sent in over Christmas but they couldn't find any signs of infection although the care staff said he looked better than he had in ages after his hospital spell probably because he got a load of supply. Sib told me that he was gushing about this chat he'd had with a man when waiting for a scan and this man was telling him about his thoroughbred horse. Dad was saying 'it was marvellous, a wonderful chat'. So weird. When we take our children to visit him he ignores them, he ignore us and it's all about him unless there's someone who he thinks has high status.  But he has plenty of time to speak to someone who he thinks is superior or worthy. Idiot. It is embarrassing and obvious. Cringey. I mean I lov
e Alan partridge but when it's your own dad 🤮!

Fawning over people considered high status socially or financially is classic narcissism.

[p123]

Yup. Just total lack of thought about me as a feeling being. Just utter raw manipulation of the feelings that we have that they don't! Using our humanity against us for their own gain. But there is a lack of foresight because they lose so much and end up with very few people and most of them have only been in their life for a few months because people move away. He never learns.  So he has to pile on the protective projection.

Yeh I get that. Lay on the guilt trip all the time...

What he doesn;t realise is now I visit less than I used to because of this.....

And I can see him losing friends left right and center because hes the same with them.

[NumbLotus]

I am thinking that using the childish manipulation tactics like Sick Voice and Death Shuffle and then forgetting is not really a reflection on how dumb they think you are, but how their own minds are constructed.

1. Reality distortion
PDs regularly distort reality to fit their narratives, especially NPDs, who protect their egos by changing what happened, in what order, what was said, what it meant, to something they can live with. After a while, they are so comfortable doing this that the thread of actual reality goes dim.  My narcissist former boss in fact tried to literally coach me to do this - narcs probably assume, if they think about us at all, that we all live as disconnected as they do.

2. Feelings create facts
We've all seen how this works. So IN THE MOMENT when the PD is playing WOE IS ME, it's all real to them. POOR ME WHY DOESN'T HE NOTICE HOW POOOOOR I AAAAAM. Like toddlers, they don't think "I'm not really that sick," they are just all in their feelings.

And we've all seen PD feelings change on a dime. So Death Shuffle and Sick Voice go away according when they see something shiny or need to yell at you.

Of course, with PD, they are also not using any empathy, which means they are not really thinking "how would I see this were I in their shoes?" So they don't catch the bizarre stuff. And they don't CARE how it looks, only if it WORKS.

And finally, why would they manipulate rather than just being decent human beings? Well, they are PD. They don't know anything else. They will burn it all down because that's all they have.

[p123]

I am thinking that using the childish manipulation tactics like Sick Voice and Death Shuffle and then forgetting is not really a reflection on how dumb they think you are, but how their own minds are constructed.

1. Reality distortion
PDs regularly distort reality to fit their narratives, especially NPDs, who protect their egos by changing what happened, in what order, what was said, what it meant, to something they can live with. After a while, they are so comfortable doing this that the thread of actual reality goes dim.  My narcissist former boss in fact tried to literally coach me to do this - narcs probably assume, if they think about us at all, that we all live as disconnected as they do.

2. Feelings create facts
We've all seen how this works. So IN THE MOMENT when the PD is playing WOE IS ME, it's all real to them. POOR ME WHY DOESN'T HE NOTICE HOW POOOOOR I AAAAAM. Like toddlers, they don't think "I'm not really that sick," they are just all in their feelings.

And we've all seen PD feelings change on a dime. So Death Shuffle and Sick Voice go away according when they see something shiny or need to yell at you.

Of course, with PD, they are also not using any empathy, which means they are not really thinking "how would I see this were I in their shoes?" So they don't catch the bizarre stuff. And they don't CARE how it looks, only if it WORKS.

And finally, why would they manipulate rather than just being decent human beings? Well, they are PD. They don't know anything else. They will burn it all down because that's all they have.

Thanks Numbo - yeh its amazing to see sometimes. I just think "why?" its just SO obviously an act.

I think I get what you mean. Dad seems to have nothing at all going on in his head apart from being totally focused on getting what he wants. i.e. me to visit mostly. Which I guess is part of the reason hes got no time for his grandchildren (hes working fulltime getting me to visit).

I think I get what you mean by it being "real" to them. Dad seems to justify it that he really is ill and I need to know about it.

Also, can guarantee he will either have no recollection or completely deny what hes pulled in the past. And there have been some right doozies. Its all forgotten about now he thinks. If I told him that my wife wants nothing to do with him any more (and she has every right) then he'd looked at me amazed and say "WHAT HAVE I EVER DONE?"

[NumbLotus]

p123, my dad and your dad are similar in a lot of ways, but I got totally let off the hook. My dad reserves everything for my mother, and dementia has brought out the neediest, most bizarre behavior.

My dad is in assusted living and he does the same thing with the "keep in touch" line to my mom - when he calls her FIFTEEN TIMES A DAY.

When she arrives for her daily visit, he doesn't even say hello, just starts in with "okay, I need you to move this over here and and and and." She hasn't even put her purse down at this point. (She gets annoyed and sarcastically says "I'm fine thank you, how are you?" and he'll contritely greet her while restraining himself from barking more orders but you see on his face it's all he's thinking about).

I have a role similar to your DD, though I'm the daughter not the granddaughter. The difference is that my Dad will nicely greet me after he gets all his orders barked out to my mom, before he then ignores me. If I speak or even look around it drives him crazy. He is happy when I just stare at my phone the whole visit, saying, doing, touching nothing.

So that's why I reply to your threads, because your dad and my dad should maybe have a beer.

[p123]

p123, my dad and your dad are similar in a lot of ways, but I got totally let off the hook. My dad reserves everything for my mother, and dementia has brought out the neediest, most bizarre behavior.

My dad is in assusted living and he does the same thing with the "keep in touch" line to my mom - when he calls her FIFTEEN TIMES A DAY.

When she arrives for her daily visit, he doesn't even say hello, just starts in with "okay, I need you to move this over here and and and and." She hasn't even put her purse down at this point. (She gets annoyed and sarcastically says "I'm fine thank you, how are you?" and he'll contritely greet her while restraining himself from barking more orders but you see on his face it's all he's thinking about).

I have a role similar to your DD, though I'm the daughter not the granddaughter. The difference is that my Dad will nicely greet me after he gets all his orders barked out to my mom, before he then ignores me. If I speak or even look around it drives him crazy. He is happy when I just stare at my phone the whole visit, saying, doing, touching nothing.

So that's why I reply to your threads, because your dad and my dad should maybe have a beer.

ha ha yes sound very similar.....

Yep this weeks phone call "Hello Dad" replied to with "I've been ill and you haven't phoned me"

I visit him he ignores my 6 year old daughter COMPLETELY. I sit down and he gets his LIST out - thing I need to sort for him.
He keeps ALL his post to show me. He gets letters with big letters "Changes to term and conditions of bank account". I've got give it the once over and he says "whats that?". "Its changes to terms and conditions of your bank account" Dad repies "ah ok". Occasionally he will get obsessed with reading the side effects for his prescription meds - "what does it mean - can cause siezure?"

[lkdrymom]

I think Lkdrymom's response is made of win - and it will put your dad on notice:    if he keeps it up, he's only going to have himself to blame when he winds up in a home. 

Note:  A  home.  Not *your* home.   

Don't worry about what others think - and don't take your dad at face value about your brother calling 3 times a day.  He probably hasn't even called once and doesn't know your dad is "sick."

And yes, it IS exhausting!  I went through this weekly with unBPD Didi and her freaking "caaaaaaaaaaancer!" scares, once she figured out that her usual aches and pains just didn't do it for me.  She went for the BIG gun - caaaaaaancer!    - thinking I HAD to drop everything and rush to her bedside - but instead, I stayed here and just wanted to bang my head against the wall, because it felt so damned good when I stopped!   

They think it's cancer!  It could be cancer!  It might be cancer!  Everything points to cancer!  They suspect cancer!  The symptoms are the same as cancer!  They're ruling out cancer!  They can't be sure it isn't cancer!  They're testing for cancer!  All signs point to cancer!  It could be cancer!  They can't say for certain it isn't cancer!   It's suspicious of cancer!  They are worried it's CANCER!   

O.  M.  F.  G.   

Didi wanted everybody to run!  Rush!  Panic!  Live in Fire Drill mode, where nobody has any information other than what she told them about it might be caaaaaancer, again, some more- and once cancer was actually ruled out, she didn't want anybody to know.

Trying to get *that* information out of her was like pulling teeth and came couched with the doctors not definitively ruling out cancer for that body part/area  OR came with yet another cancer scare! 

It's her lung!  No, it's her armpit!  Her nose!  Her stomach!  She's riddled with it!  It's her chin!  Her bones!  Her liver! 

Didi never ran out of body parts that could  be cancerous  - but I ran out of patience and would respond with Medium Chill and, "That's a shame.  I'm sure you'll keep me posted." 

Honestly, that was about all the compassion I could muster.    A part of me wanted to laugh at her and a part of me wanted to throttle her - but NO part of me felt sympathy or empathy.

I have had that same conversation with my father. He would go from one doctor to the next.  When he announced it wasn't cancer I actually said "I'm sorry, better luck next time?".  I think if he ever did get cancer he'd die of shock.

[p123]

I think Lkdrymom's response is made of win - and it will put your dad on notice:    if he keeps it up, he's only going to have himself to blame when he winds up in a home. 

Note:  A  home.  Not *your* home.   

Don't worry about what others think - and don't take your dad at face value about your brother calling 3 times a day.  He probably hasn't even called once and doesn't know your dad is "sick."

And yes, it IS exhausting!  I went through this weekly with unBPD Didi and her freaking "caaaaaaaaaaancer!" scares, once she figured out that her usual aches and pains just didn't do it for me.  She went for the BIG gun - caaaaaaancer!    - thinking I HAD to drop everything and rush to her bedside - but instead, I stayed here and just wanted to bang my head against the wall, because it felt so damned good when I stopped!   

They think it's cancer!  It could be cancer!  It might be cancer!  Everything points to cancer!  They suspect cancer!  The symptoms are the same as cancer!  They're ruling out cancer!  They can't be sure it isn't cancer!  They're testing for cancer!  All signs point to cancer!  It could be cancer!  They can't say for certain it isn't cancer!   It's suspicious of cancer!  They are worried it's CANCER!   

O.  M.  F.  G.   

Didi wanted everybody to run!  Rush!  Panic!  Live in Fire Drill mode, where nobody has any information other than what she told them about it might be caaaaaancer, again, some more- and once cancer was actually ruled out, she didn't want anybody to know.

Trying to get *that* information out of her was like pulling teeth and came couched with the doctors not definitively ruling out cancer for that body part/area  OR came with yet another cancer scare! 

It's her lung!  No, it's her armpit!  Her nose!  Her stomach!  She's riddled with it!  It's her chin!  Her bones!  Her liver! 

Didi never ran out of body parts that could  be cancerous  - but I ran out of patience and would respond with Medium Chill and, "That's a shame.  I'm sure you'll keep me posted." 

Honestly, that was about all the compassion I could muster.    A part of me wanted to laugh at her and a part of me wanted to throttle her - but NO part of me felt sympathy or empathy.

I have had that same conversation with my father. He would go from one doctor to the next.  When he announced it wasn't cancer I actually said "I'm sorry, better luck next time?".  I think if he ever did get cancer he'd die of shock.

Ha ha thats a good answer.  I think Dad is praying for something from this xray - there wont be.

[p123]

OH I think he might be banned by his GP again....

He called them out again yesterday. 3 times in a week now. This time the young GP told him "Its a cold", there is nothing on his xray, and no more antibiotics. I think Dad had a bit of a go at him. He admitted the senior partner called him later to speak to him about "how he treats the visiting GP", and to tell him no more home visits for Colds please.

Dad wants me to phone them an official complaint for "refusing to treat his illness". Umm NO WAY.

No idea why hes like this. If I ever sneeze in his presence I get three days of "why haven't you been to the doctor?". Surely EVERYONE knows for a cold you don't need a doctor?

Dad, as usual, won't listen to me or anyone else including his doctor.

I'm keeping out of this one again.....

[Adrianna]

Yes stay out of it. Let him do what he's going to do. You can't change him. 

Not sure if you read my other post but my grandmother's behavior escalated too and ends up she had dementia and I didn't even know it.  She was obsessed with going to the doctor and her neediness and demands were beyond belief. Pds do escalate their tricks when you set boundaries so I had no idea dementia was setting in. Just thought it was her trying to get me back in line. I just knew I couldn't handle her anymore and even with 7-8 people a week going into the house it wasn't enough. She was averaging an ambulance ride every two weeks. I was exhausted.

If things start getting too out of hand and  especially if he starts becoming verbally abusive think about having his cognition checked out.  Her anxiety level too was off the charts and it only got worse as she got older. I see a lot of her when I read your posts about your father.  If he keeps this up his doctors office might order a cognition test on him themselves because they'll see the escalating behavior as a red flag.

[p123]

Yes stay out of it. Let him do what he's going to do. You can't change him. 

Not sure if you read my other post but my grandmother's behavior escalated too and ends up she had dementia and I didn't even know it.  She was obsessed with going to the doctor and her neediness and demands were beyond belief. Pds do escalate their tricks when you set boundaries so I had no idea dementia was setting in. Just thought it was her trying to get me back in line. I just knew I couldn't handle her anymore and even with 7-8 people a week going into the house it wasn't enough. She was averaging an ambulance ride every two weeks. I was exhausted.

If things start getting too out of hand and  especially if he starts becoming verbally abusive think about having his cognition checked out.  Her anxiety level too was off the charts and it only got worse as she got older. I see a lot of her when I read your posts about your father.  If he keeps this up his doctors office might order a cognition test on him themselves because they'll see the escalating behavior as a red flag.

Yes I spoke to his doctor about a year ago. They said at the time there was no way he showed any signs and that some elderly people were just like this.

Im not getting annoyed any more with the way he abuses the healthcare system. They are adults they can deal with it. Not my circus not my monkeys.....

Nothing I say to him makes any difference anyway....

[Adrianna]

Yes not saying he has it, just something to keep in mind if the behaviors start escalating over time. No one in the hospital emergency room visits figured it out. They apparently aren't trained for that. It was her primary care doctors office who suspected it then a geriatric psychiatrist who diagnosed her in the psych hospital.

It's so challenging because I didn't know either. Just thought she was getting worse with the pd. They do get worse in pd with age even if dementia isn't involved so it's really difficult to know what's going on.

You are making huge progress with your boundaries and emotionally checking out regarding your father's behavior. Now that you see the games he plays and understand them it's much easier to see the clear picture.

[p123]

Yes not saying he has it, just something to keep in mind if the behaviors start escalating over time. No one in the hospital emergency room visits figured it out. They apparently aren't trained for that. It was her primary care doctors office who suspected it then a geriatric psychiatrist who diagnosed her in the psych hospital.

It's so challenging because I didn't know either. Just thought she was getting worse with the pd. They do get worse in pd with age even if dementia isn't involved so it's really difficult to know what's going on.

You are making huge progress with your boundaries and emotionally checking out regarding your father's behavior. Now that you see the games he plays and understand them it's much easier to see the clear picture.

Yeh know what you mean. Well I hope his doctor does notice - he seems them more than me lol!
Yes its getting better. I think I pushed through the guilt months ago, I'm now pushing through the irritation and just thinking "let him do what he wants".

I know its an awful thing to say but hes my Dad and that'll never change but, as a person I dont really like him at all.
Makes me sad to think of all the things we're missing in his final years. Hes missing seeing his grandchildren grow up because hes not interested. I used to take him horse racing, away for weekends to watch cricket - I dont do that now because of the way he behaves. Its got the the point where I see him as little as I can.

He went to hug me the other day. I just thought "Oh no way". I KNOW this is just his love bombing to get what he wants out of me.

[nanotech]

Yeah dad has needed to see drs so much since he retired 20 years ago. I'm beginning to think medical people are his favoured supply. He has no one else in his life apart from me and sib and I've now had enough of his abuse.

He got sent in over Christmas but they couldn't find any signs of infection although the care staff said he looked better than he had in ages after his hospital spell probably because he got a load of supply. Sib told me that he was gushing about this chat he'd had with a man when waiting for a scan and this man was telling him about his thoroughbred horse. Dad was saying 'it was marvellous, a wonderful chat'. So weird. When we take our children to visit him he ignores them, he ignore us and it's all about him unless there's someone who he thinks has high status.  But he has plenty of time to speak to someone who he thinks is superior or worthy. Idiot. It is embarrassing and obvious. Cringey. I mean I lov
e Alan partridge but when it's your own dad 🤮!

Fawning over people considered high status socially or financially is classic narcissism.

This is exactly what my dad does. He values interactions with doctors and others who have a high status. He adores hospital visits. 
There's one person in our family whom, due to his upcoming profession, dad views as higher status. He's begun to favour this person.

[tob-ler-one]

Dad wants me to phone them an official complaint for "refusing to treat his illness". Umm NO WAY.

I was in a vaguely similar position once. Or maybe more than once, I can't really remember and it upsets me to go over some memories of that time. I was essentially acting like a go-between. It really is upsetting to think about.

My mother used to call her doctor by their first name, as if they hung out outside of work. But of course never in front of the doctor - that would have been a bit disrespectful and of course she wouldn't have been able to wave it off as a "mistake". I wish she'd slipped up and done it. Just once.

[p123]

Dad wants me to phone them an official complaint for "refusing to treat his illness". Umm NO WAY.

I was in a vaguely similar position once. Or maybe more than once, I can't really remember and it upsets me to go over some memories of that time. I was essentially acting like a go-between. It really is upsetting to think about.

My mother used to call her doctor by their first name, as if they hung out outside of work. But of course never in front of the doctor - that would have been a bit disrespectful and of course she wouldn't have been able to wave it off as a "mistake". I wish she'd slipped up and done it. Just once.

He tried again this weekend to get me to phone them to complain because "hes paid his taxes all his life". Still nope.

[p123]

Think I've said before I've got a teen with Aspergers. In the past hes caused really serious problems at home with this aggression etc. Its not good. Its been better for a while but its all full tilt again.

Of course, I don't tell Dad much. He'd expect a daily status update. And then theres the "expert advice" like "give him a slap".

I did tell Dad the weekend that I had things to deal with so I'd be a bit busy coming weeks. Lasted literally 2 minutes. Back to "so are you taking me to the hospital appt next week". (the one I'd already said no to 3 times). Apparently his virus/cold is so bad theres no way he could get into a taxi. Still no.