Dementia vs another layer of PD?

[jennsc85]

My uBPD mother in the last few months has told two stories about me that are completely fictional. She goes into detail about what I was wearing, what I said, etc. She seems genuinely shocked when I say that I don't remember what she's talking about.

In the past she's distorted the truth- or even told the truth but told it in a way that made me look bad. Or she's lied, but it's been very obvious that she knows what she's doing. But she's never created stories to tell people that were this untrue. One of her stories is that I did drugs as a teenager and assaulted people. I never did either of those things!

She's almost 67... is this a dementia thing or a PD thing? Have you guys experienced anything like this with your elderly PD family members when they got older?

[WomanInterrupted]

Hi Jenn - and yes! 

This is, IME, fairly normal.  The details give it extra "credibility" to others, as in, "If she can remember what you were wearing, right down to the print of your skirt, WHY would she be lying about that horrible thing you did?" 

Well....for ATTENTION.  And to make you look terrible.  And to make herself look like MOTY for putting up with such a horrible daughter. 

What I suggest is to not engage  - don't challenge her or say you don't recall it that way, but raise an eyebrow and calmly say, "That's very interesting..."    - and end the visit or call immediately.   Don't get into it with her - end the call or leave, and I strongly suggest you go back to NC, before she can figure out other ways to hurt you.   

UnBPD Didi didn't do that sort of thing when I was a kid or teen - as a kid, you're more apt to yell, "Mommy...that's a lie!" in front of a room full of strangers and embarrass the living bejeebus out of her, and as a teen, you're more apt to  roll your eyes and walk away. 

But now that you're and adult and you do NOT want to set her off, she thinks she's got some kind of upper hand - prove to her that she doesn't by reacting in a very bored manner, telling her it's interesting and ending the contact.   

Does your mom do that thing where she goes into so many details or makes up so much garbage that she doesn't realize that the person she's speaking to is making a face at her that is NOT pleasant?

Didi was great at that - she had a few stories about how I was an uncontrollable child who ran around and made at least 2 kindergarten/elementary school plays about me and I was SO bad they called Didi nightly and begged her to put me on medication, but she sniffed that it was THEIR job to control me. 

I remember both plays - I wasn't out of control.  I did what I was told because I was scared to death Didi would hurt me.  The only thing I did was what we were all told - speak up!

So I did.  I remember laughter- and then I mouthed the words.   

That happened for both plays.  They were ensemble or "Greek chorus" plays where we all said the same lines, simultaneously.

People would give Didi really weird looks while I just smiled and rolled my eyes, shook my head slightly but said *nothing* to the speaker, who probably figured it out.   

She say similar things about me singing in chorus - that I was too loud and had a terrible voice, so they "made" me sing alto/tenor and stuck me in the back so I didn't embarrass myself. 

I'd just smile and think of my A+ medal in singing that I got from the state - and those bands I went on to front.   

But THE whopper was the day I moved out - I moved out shortly after I turned 18 because she was trying to charge me an ungodly amount of rent for my room, and still expected me to do chores.  For what she wanted in rent, I could have a whole apartment, so a plan I had in place with a couple of friends got moved up to the next day, instead of a few months out.

When Didi and Ray were at work, I loaded up my Chevette and left a note that said I'd moved out and would call them in a few weeks.

I did, and they acted like nothing was wrong, and could only gloat about their new storage room, which was my old bedroom. 

But....many years later, she told her neighbor that she *threw me out right after my 18th* birthday and told me to go live on my own and stand on my own two feet.  It was time I did that for myself and I wasn't going to learn to care for myself sitting around at hers, or pick up nasty habits like drinking and drugs, so she threw me out to be a responsible citizen!   

The neighbor looked utterly horrified at Didi's smug words and face, then looked to me - I was very subtly shaking my head, but neither of us questioned her.  We just let her have her fill of a gloat that nobody believed. 

Your mom thinks she's making herself look good, or like a martyr, or a victim, or *something* - not realizing that you might not be the  only one questioning her stories, especially if they keep coming up and very little changes about the details, like they've been rehearsed and memorized.

After Didi would tell one of her whoppers, I'd make a point to not call or have any contact with her for at least a week, to let myself decompress.  I was still midway through the de-FOGging process, and didn't want to give her ammo.

That's why strongly suggest you go back to NC.  She's only going to keep doing it and she's only going to keep getting worse - especially if she's performing for the boyfriend who still thinks she's Ms. Wonderful.

I'm about 90% certain that's not going to last, which is why you want NC to be a normal, regular thing - so she doesn't start relying on you to dump on and abuse in his place.   

Less contact is more with people like your mom - especially when you never know what rubbish is going to come out of her mouth to make you look bad.

But the BEST contact is NONE.  Its' safest and sanest - and you deserve peace. 

[_apparentlywicked]

I think they hope others put it down to honest mental decline. Problem is you know what she is like. Is she coming up with fabricated stories that paint you in a wonderful light? If she usually devalues you it could be that her declining cognitive abilities, as poor as they already were, are now even poorer. And her need to devalue has more free reign in what she can allow her mind to fabricate if her awareness of facts is weakening.

My dad is pretending I haven't not returned all calls for 7 weeks after he was hideous to me during my last visit  I've never not returned a call. He's hoping that if he just carries on leaving messages and behaving as everything is normal that he can get away with abusing me. And that he can play dumb and pretend he doesn't remember the abuse if someone points out I'm not calling because of his behaviour.  Only the fact that he's not mentioning me not returning calls shows that he knows. But he can't say 'are you okay I haven't heard from you since your last visit' because he knows he's opening a stinking rotting pile of long dead flesh and he is all about avoiding that.

[p123]

Oh my Dad gets away with murder because as he says "I am in my 80s". Complete horseshit to be honest.....

He lies, makes things up the same.

Initially I though it was dementia etc. Spoke to his GP who today, have always refused to even investigate dementia because in their words "Some old people like you're Dad just have this way about them".

[NumbLotus]

The Too Many Details is ringing a bell for me. Can't remember if it was Gavin deBecker or someone else who warned about Too Many Details, but it is a red flag for lying and manipulation.

[SunnyMeadow]

The Too Many Details is ringing a bell for me. Can't remember if it was Gavin deBecker or someone else who warned about Too Many Details, but it is a red flag for lying and manipulation.

It was ringing a bell for me too so I looked up a synopsis of the book:

This book is an invaluable resource for women. The 4th chapter by itself is worth the price of the book alone. Titled "Survival Signals" this chapter will teach you the sophisticated manipulations that criminal predators use to try and gain control over you.
You will learn about:

"forced teaming"- establishing premature trust based on sharing a predicament.

"charm and niceness" (remember, niceness does not equal goodness.)

"too many details"- When people lie what they say doesn't sound credible to them so they keep talking.

"typecasting"- Involves a slight insult to get the woman to respond by engaging verbally with the crim-pred.

"loan sharking"- (it's hard to tell a creep to eff off when he's done something helpful and now you are indebted to him.)

"discounting of the word NO"- refusal to respect the word no is a signal a crim-pred is trying to control you or refusing to relinquish control.

There is much more detail in this chapter, and I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to recognize these "interviewing techniques" that criminal predators use. Thank you Gavin de Becker for writing such an important and informational book.

My mom does a similar thing with too many details, to make the story bigger and better. She also discounts my NO and I really don't like that. I'm an adult, don't treat me like a child!

[NumbLotus]

Thanks for posting that because I want to touch on those concepts with my teen DD and her friend.

I've already pointed out Discounting No in movies and irl a few times. Will be good to watch out for the others to point out.

[Adrianna]

So I'm going to give another perspective on this. My grandmother is 97 and Undiagnosed npd/BPD. She has been emotionally abusive my entire life, Is manipulative, stirs up trouble, expects special treatment and let's you know you're not living up to her expectations. Basically a nightmare to be around and I was well in the fog for many years, feeling it was my duty to make her happy and I was failing at what I now realize was an impossible job. I'm in therapy to undo the damage.

Over the past year her behavior was getting worse, basically an even worse version of herself.  I was thinking it was just her getting meaner. The demands were ridiculous, the guilt trips, literally all she cared about was who's coming over and what are they doing for me. She threatened suicide to the guy who delivers the meals, he reported it, I told police bring her to hospital. Hospital sent her home, against my advice. Said she denied wanting to hurt herself. I wanted a psych hold put on her.. I knew something was up and it was getting out of hand.  Couple days later she tells physical therapist (I had so many services for her at home you wouldn't believe how many people were coming and going) that she took alcohol with some sleeping pills the night before. Therapist of course reported it, she got sent to ER, I said to them NOW can you get a psych hold? They agreed and she was diagnosed with dementia with behavior issues while in psych hospital. I had no idea she had it but her primary suspected it because they had the OT girl who was coming into the house giving her a couple cognition tests at home without my knowledge, which I'm now grateful for. They showed dementia and I didn't believe it.

Looking back I'm seeing she had become verbally abusive, like her filter was gone, and that was new for her. She would call neighbors and say no one had visited in weeks when someone was at the house every day. I just figured oh there she goes again, saying no one visits (she's been doing that forever) but I think she really believed no one was visiting this time. I have had confirmation now that her memory isn't great (she didn't recognize a bathrobe she had been wearing for 4 years), last time I saw her she said I haven't seen you in 6 weeks (it had been a week), and so although I think of dementia in terms of just memory loss there's so much more to it than that. They lose the ability to make decisions, lose their filter, and in the case of someone with pd, become an even more outrageous version of themselves.

She's now in a nursing home. I haven't seen her since November when she told me I put her there to die, I don't care about her, I got exactly what I wanted by putting her there, and when I left the room to go home she told me to go to hell.  I actually turned around in hallway, went back into her room and asked if she actually said that to me and she said yes. I haven't been back to see her.

I was in denial that she needed nursing care, assumed she would live at home until she died, and was in denial that she was declining. I just thought she was getting meaner. When someone is so skilled with manipulation, you can't help but think their behavior is intentional, so when dementia sets in it's like oh here she goes again but she's older so it's getting worse. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire with pd and dementia though. You don't know what's the pd and what's the dementia.

I would just keep this in mind. I'm not saying your mom has dementia at all, just letting you know how things progress in someone who does have it.

[SunnyMeadow]

My grandmother is 97 and Undiagnosed npd/BPD. She has been emotionally abusive my entire life, Is manipulative, stirs up trouble, expects special treatment and let's you know you're not living up to her expectations. Basically a nightmare to be around and I was well in the fog for many years, feeling it was my duty to make her happy and I was failing at what I now realize was an impossible job. I'm in therapy to undo the damage.

This scares me, she's 97?! Ninety seven years of tormenting people.    My mother sounds exactly like your g'ma. They are miserable people.

Psych hold is something I learned about here, never knew anything about it. Thanks for the information Adrianna. I'm tucking it away for future interactions with my aging uPDmother.