Should I go?

[Entj]

Hello everyone

It's been a while since I've been here. Things have been mostly good - but we also live far from inlaws, so that helps.

We visited them before Christmas and MIL took our 3yo son to another room. This is something she has done every time we've met them at their place for the last 3 years (we see them twice a year approximately). When he was a baby, she left the living room with 20 guests to take him to another room without asking. Then we set the boundary that the kid stays with us and every time she has taken him to another room, we leave immediately. First time she took the kid to another room again after we set the boundary, I told her off and she started yelling and acting like crazy. Of course this time she did it right when we were getting ready to leave. Our son was scared and he was telling us he doesn't want grandma on our way back. I suspect even potential sexual abuse intentions, as I cannot understand why someone would try so obsessively to get alone time with a little child in another room. Needless to say we only see them twice a year and they never see the kids unsupervised.

Fast forward on Christmas day, we called to wish them merry Christmas and I told them 'we're sorry we won't be meeting again for Christmas, but with such behaviour we cannot meet with you and the kid was scared by you'. She started yelling again and I hanged up.

Fast forward a few days after new year's, I texted BIL for his birthday, he replied thank you. DH told me he would go past BIL's place to wish him happy birthday for a bit after work. I said ok, DH then texted me that they would go out in the end,  I said enjoy. When he came back, I found out they went out with BIL, his wife, and both sets of parents. So they invited DH but not me and DH didn't even invite me himself out of courtesy. I told him I felt excluded, he apologized, BIL also texted me to tell me he was trying to avoid bringing me to a difficult position because he knows the situation with my inlaws - no apology. I haven't seen the inlaws since, my husband saw them once before we left again (we live in different countries). Now we have talked about it with DH and he realizes what a mistake it was, not to even tell me about it. I wouldn't go in any case, I had a good excuse with the kids sleeping, but we could have come to that as a common front and not treating me like I'm a girlfriend that's not important in his life.

There are two big family events this summer, the first event is the christening of our second child. The inlaws will be invited, although I certainly hope they wouldn't come but it's not probable. This will be easy to navigate, lots of people to talk to and we never stay at their place anyway, so just one afternoon.

The second event is the marriage of BIL, which will take place at a wedding destination and we would all be stuck with each other for 4-5 days. I've already told DH I am considering not going at all (kids would stay with me) and he could go on his own. He replied he totally understands, but he has to go because it's his brother. And if we decide to go together, we'll book at a separate hotel and do our own program (I'm not sure it's feasible to only see them for the wedding though).

I'm not sure what to do, would you go to the wedding? My only motivation to go would be just to be there for DH, I know he would like to be with me and the kids there for his brother's wedding. The alternative is DH going on his own. Thank you for any ideas you might have

[Leonor]

Hi Entj,

My simple (but never easy) answer to your question:

No.

No to any visit, supervised or not, among other people or not, with dh or not.

Not you. Not your children.

Nope.

No way.

No, thank you.

If there were a stranger who made you uncomfortable and wanted to isolate himself with your child and you even picked up on inappropriate "vibes" from him with your Mama Radar, would you allow him to isolate himself alone in his room in his house with your child?

Would you drive or walk or fly or make any sort of accommodation to deliver your child to this person, in person? Would you encourage your dh to do the same?

What about at a big noisy wedding where there are lots of people and distractions and there is a chance you become separated or cornered and have to pretend to have a nice time while you're not quite sure if your child is going to encounter the same stranger?

[bloomie]

Entj - sometimes people (bil & DH) think they are protecting us and it ends up a communication nightmare that hurts us. I am really sorry this happened with the bday dinner and thankful you and your DH have ironed this out.

You are maintaining some kind of very cautious and thought through LC and it seems like you can manage the christening with it being a short and larger gathering.

A destination wedding with all of the expectations and opportunities for that mil to get near you or your children... I would absolutely not go and possibly your DH will choose to compromise and not stay for the entire time as well.

Just a gentle thought.. you are supporting your DH. You are keeping your precious children safe and avoiding 4-5 days of opportunity for any potential showdowns and ugly scenes with a high conflict mil who will not respect your wishes regarding your children to the point she has frightened them and lashed out when confronted. You also seem very generous and understanding of his desire to stay connected with his brother and celebrate these special events which is quite loving and supportive imv!

[Entj]

Leonor
Thank you for your reply. Very well said, simple but not easy. I've used exactly this example with DH, what if this was a stranger. You're right, I need to protect my kids.
I needed to hear that from someone else; sometimes I feel like I'm the crazy one, it's so surreal.

Bloomie
Thank you for the support. Good point, there will be many opportunities for MIL to wreak havoc and expectations for us to adhere to. Thank you also for pointing that I am supporting DH even if he goes on his own, this helps me make a decision and not feel like I'm the bad guy.

[SweetTea]

Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.

You have set a boundary pertaining to your child that your MIL has never once respected. You should assume she never will.  Were it me, the last time she broke the boundary would be the last time any children of mine would be in her presence, until the children were old enough (teens probably) to make decisions regarding their boundaries with grandma for themselves.

I could see possibly 'being there' to support ones spouse should they need to attend a funeral of one of their relatives....if the children were left at home with a trusted caregiver. But a wedding? I'd 'support' my husband by giving my blessing to go without me and the children. BIL surely will know why, seeing as he knows of the 'difficult' situation. That said, neither of you are obligated to attend any family event. It doesn't matter if they 'understand' or not. His family has shown no respect to you or your husband.

And the christening....again, MIL really lost all privileges the first time she stepped over the boundary. I wouldn't feel obligated to invite her at all. It's her own fault, not yours, that she's treated your family with utter disrespect, she's proven she can't be trusted...and she put fear in your child, for goodness sakes! But if you do invite them, I'd consider limiting their invitation to the ceremony only, and not to any reception or luncheon or party afterward, where you will be busy with the baby and a lot of commotion will be going on where you may momentarily lose track of your child.  MIL cannot be trusted in the hubbub of a post-christening event. Perhaps if she knows she's only welcome at the ceremony, she won't bother coming at all.

Do you feel you'd have your DH's support if you chose NO Contact for you and your children? Has he informed your MIL that screaming at either of you is not acceptable, and that her lack of respect for boundaries is unacceptable? I know from first-hand experience, it is difficult when your DH is still half in the FOG and feels some obligation to spend time with his PD FOO. Being a united front on boundaries and contact levels is paramount for the peace and safety of your family of choice.

Good luck. 

[Entj]

Hi SweetTea

Thank you for your reply. Regarding the christening, I will have a nanny for the kids with clear instructions that no one takes the kids. I hope this is the last time I see these inlaws from hell. I will discuss it, but it's improbable that the inlaws won't be invited.

Unfortunately, I do not have DH's support for going no contact. Even after two years of him going to therapy, even after every single interaction being a negative one. It is a discussion we're having from time to time, whenever MIL is being her usual obnoxious self. I had told DH when I  gave birth to our first kid that when the baby turns 3, we'd go no contact if things hadn't improved. Here we are, a bit after 3 and still talking about it. I've said we'll go no contact after BIL's wedding, but now I see no reason to go there in the first place. Quite surprisingly, after the last time we saw them, DH said we're not going there again (during that trip, we live abroad), which is already a big step for him. We need to have a discussion about the possibility of going no contact again and quite frankly, DH needs to step up.

It is even more horrible, our child was abused (by an irrelevant person at school) and we found out a month before visiting the inlaws. MIL knew that and still she tried to take our son to another room. I have asked DH a few times whether he was abused as a kid, he used to say no, but last time he said 'not that I can remember of'. Also he was late to protect our son from the abuse, he saw an important piece of evidence and he never acted upon it, he didn't even tell me - which is another indication he has been abused himself. I was begging him not to visit them, as no visit has ever been even neutral and at this stage were have more serious problems than MIL's shenanigans. He put his family of origin again above us and we reached close to divorce. It was after that that he didn't push for seeing them again during that trip. No contact is the way to go, I'm just giving him time to adjust. At some point though, time will be up. Thank you for reinforcing that that's the right way to go.

[Phoenix Rising]

Hello,

I am sure you know that the choice is ultimately yours. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't go. It saddens me to read that your DH does not support no contact as your MIL has crossed many boundaries. It's hard when you want to be there to support your husband but also want to protect yourself and your family. Also when your DH is still stuck in the mud with where his loyalties should really lie. I get that cause my own DH is just coming Out of the FOG right now.

I think that it would be in your (and kids) best interest not to go. IMO going just shows DH that you will tolerate your ILs behaviour and it invalidates your experiences. I doubt that you will have a good time. The money for the hotels and so on would probably be better spent taking you and your kids for some kind of fun event instead (theme park, kids convention, etc). I don't know if such things are available right now but just an idea. I'd take the time to do something special for you and the kids instead. You all deserve to feel good, respected and free of ill treatment.

[Entj]

Hi inventing

Thank you for your response. It is my choice and my responsibility. We had arrived to our 'twice a year's deal with DH and it took a lot of discussion and a lot of compromise from both sides. It doesn't work anymore obviously. Needed to hear from people outside this situation what it looks like so that I can avoid making any rushed decisions based on feelings accumulated all these years and after such disrespect time and again.

DH has been going in and Out of the FOG for the last two years. We will need to have this discussion again. I've already told him that if he insists on having contact, we'll be skipping the next visit when inlaws misbehave and leave more and more breathing room between the visits - which would practically mean we'd see them once every couple of years. This is something that went down better with him. At some point, I'll need to just say it and do it.

[Leonor]

Hi Entj,

I'm not quite sure why you would have to go see your ILs, even if you dh decides to do so.

My ILs live in a different country and last year I put down a set of conditions of what would have to change in our relationship with them. My consequences were that if he did not agree to the conditions, I would not travel with him and I would not sign the waiver to allow my children to travel out of the country without me, either.

The bad news is, it's really super hard. The good news is, it's not up to dh what you do or don't do. You can choose. And in choosing, you can model a healthy, open response to unhealthy, manipulative behavior.

It's really super hard, though.

[Entj]

Hi Leonor

DH and I grew up in the same country and now live abroad. This means that unfortunately my family of origin and my friends are  in the same city as inlaws.

The kids and I spend there 3-4 months per year in total, DH comes for vacations while we're staying there. During those months we stay at my parents, we never see the inlaws when DH is not there and even when he is, we still don't see them more than twice, once when we get there and once before we leave. DH is free to go visit them whenever he wants. Until now this has worked for us, because we visit for less than two hours twice a year and that was keeping DH happy, inlaws not so happy (but who cares) and me not so happy but not terribly annoyed either.

No contact would be ideal, but I'm not sure it's worth the backlash. Right now we never talk or Skype with the inlaws, we only see them twice a year and this kind of works. From time to time we discuss no contact with DH, yesterday he said he would support me if we went no contact with the kids, but let's see.

[Phoenix Rising]

Hi inventing

Thank you for your response. It is my choice and my responsibility. We had arrived to our 'twice a year's deal with DH and it took a lot of discussion and a lot of compromise from both sides. It doesn't work anymore obviously. Needed to hear from people outside this situation what it looks like so that I can avoid making any rushed decisions based on feelings accumulated all these years and after such disrespect time and again.

DH has been going in and Out of the FOG for the last two years. We will need to have this discussion again. I've already told him that if he insists on having contact, we'll be skipping the next visit when inlaws misbehave and leave more and more breathing room between the visits - which would practically mean we'd see them once every couple of years. This is something that went down better with him. At some point, I'll need to just say it and do it.

Yes, I think it's a good idea to get perspective from the outside from time to time. It really sucks to be in this spot, but this community is here for you as you navigate everything

[candy]

Entj, I am so sorry to read what happened to your child at school. And I've been stunned and shocked to read that your MIL as a grandparent, or as an adult, has risked retraumatizing your little one again by forcing her will with him, taking him to another room.

It scares the hell out of me thinking about what your little one, and your little family, has gone through. How horrible you had to walk part of that road on your own.

Without background I may have suggested you leave the kids with a trusted caregiver for maybe just the wedding ceremony or celebration and go on your own with your DH.
But with several days and a wedding destination far out this is not an option.

I did DH and me only for several hours last year when my BIL, DH's brother, got married. DH was best man, that's why he had to go, I accompanied him as support. I refused to take our toddler DD to BIL's wedding as I am NC with my MIL and FIL. DH agreed. My main reason to go NC has been to protect DD from verbal and other abuse and the example of toxic behavior.
Anyway, members of this forum supported me with a ton of useful tips and tricks how to survive BIL's wedding:

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=80481.msg697342#msg697342

And yet it was awful 

I agree with everyone who wrote, don't go in case you have to bring your kids!

About the christening: we've been there too, and if I had to do it again, I would not invite my IL's. Alternatively I would ask a trusted person to watch MIL during the entire event and to intervene in case she starts to act out.
Maybe your BIL could do the babysitting of MIL? It sounds like he knows about the problematic behavior.

We weren't NC respectively VLC (DH) when our DD was baptized. But although DH and I had planned accordingly to keep possible drama and disturbances to a minimum, my NPDMIL still managed to make a lot of DD's special day about MIL.

To prevent MIL claiming time and physical closeness with her ,,only grandchild" at the christening, we arranged a strict policy of DD staying in the arms of her parents only. Ultimately MIL was the only adult aside from DH and I who hold DD. She grabbed DD from her highchair when I visited the bathroom once. I politely stopped her violating that boundary, but still it happened.
I am saying you may give instructions to a nanny, or you stay glued to your kids, but you cannot be sure an entitled grandmother won't try to get her way.

During the church service prior to the baptism MIL lectured DH about how to honour and store MIL's presents 

After the service MIL messed up seating arrangements, sat herself down in the middle of an u shaped panel like she was hosting the whole celebration, grouping FIL, GCBIL and his GF around her, forcing elderly guests and parents with little children to move up from shadowed seats to full sunlight. The child baptized, our DD, sat at a corner of the table.

I spent an hour nursing my baby DD on a bench nearby because we were waiting for parasols to be delivered. Of course, the parasols were in the area of responsibility of the location's organizer. We had friends, who were guests too, moving tables of one long side of the u-shape, so that our guests could sit in the shadow. It would had been a resolvable issue even without parasols if queen bee MIL and her entourage just got up from the comfortable seats they had conquered.

My MIL stirred up all sorts of conflicts at my child's christening. The bigger the audience, the bigger the performance.
And as MIL really didn't give a s*#~t about  me or about what my folks think, her performance was all about special attention regardless if negative or positive.

You sound like you have figured out a way to manage your IL's already. From where I stand your MIL repeatedly breaking a boundary you've set to protect your children would indeed be a sufficient justification to go NC (or to exclude her from the guest list of your family event). IMO the horrible last time you described, with MIL having knowledge about what happened to your child and the child telling you he was scared,
would serve well as a final nail in the coffin.