Forgiveness and Moving Forward

[Hopeful Spine]

Long story short - my SIL said some awful, hurtful things to myself and especially my husband (my husband and her husband are brothers).

My husband went through a very confusing time in his life.  Lots of alcohol and poor self esteem led to very bad decisions.  I've gone through a lot with my husband and I'm 100% happy to report that he's taken many, many step to redeem himself.  It's been 10 years after the worst of it and I consider myself blessed.  My marriage is the marriage I've always dreamed of.

In the whole process of rebuilding our marriage I've been forced to re-examine all the relationships in my life.  My SIL (I'll call her Jenny) was one of my closest friends and her kids loved us.  Unfortunately our initial relationship was built upon our mutual unhappiness with our marriages.  My marriage crumbled and was rebuilt.  Hers seems to have been "healed" by turning towards religion.

She has grown extremely religious in a faith I know well as I grew up in the faith myself and I understand everything that she does.  The rest of the family, including my mother in law are also very religious.  These past 10 years have shown me how toxic that faith can be.  I've made the personal decision to explore other faiths and have grown my relationship with God in untraditional ways.  For instance we attend Christian music concerts.  I watch preachers on youtube.  I'm not 100% happy with where I am now but I'm getting closer to where I want to be.

My problem is that she models herself to be this perfect Christian.  Novenas, mass intentions, visiting shrines, immersing herself in the entire culture to the point that I personally believe is unhealthy.  But this is her choice and she and her husband have jointly chosen it for their lives and their family.

However, she was awful to us and has never apologized.  Several years after my husbands problems, out of the blue, she reveals that she doesn't believe that he has done enough to redeem himself and doesn't believe that he's a healed person.  Doesn't want him around their children.  I know you don't know the whole story but please give me the benefit of the doubt when I say that my husband did do some awful things (cheated on me, abused alcohol) but that he has done countless things to heal himself physically, emotionally, psychologically, morally, etc, etc.   I'm completely satisfied with his level of remorse and effort to rebuild himself.

Because she has pulled this stunt with me before (over birth control) I choose to establish a boundary and to speak to her.  She, in turn, will not speak to me.  I did try once to pour out my heart and I was rejected.  Her husband wrote me the most passive aggressive, shaming email and she sent me a "I'm sorry you don't understand" message. 

She speaks to my husband as if nothing every happened between us all.  He converses back when he has to and is neutrally friendly to her.  He doesn't mind because he's never liked her anyway.  So when she was insulting to him - it hurt - but he didn't take stock of what she said.  He does however carry feelings of resentment toward his brother who allowed all this nonsense to take place.  We rarely see them anymore so it's sort of a non issue.

Here's my problem.  I've determined that this family is toxic.  With very specific "nice" ways of behaving that make it difficult to call people out on things.  In the past any sort of confession of being hurt has been disputed with "geez, I was just joking" or that sort of thing.  But we're all "nice" people and do "nice" things like celebrate holidays, birthdays, etc.  It's highly encourage to "just get along".

I can't do it.  I do not want to do it.  Other people in the family have hurt me and I'm able to put it aside and almost enjoy a nice afternoon with them.  But I take complete ownership of the fact that I do NOT want to even be in a superficial relationship with this woman.  Like I've tried to make friendly comments on things she's talking about to sort of rebuild something.  When I try to talk to her I feel like my heart is going to beat out of my chest.  I am friendly to her children because they are the sweetest things and I love them.  But I'm so depressed afterwards because they are her children and I can't properly have a relationship with them without her consent (at least until they are adults)

As a Christian I am very conflicted.  I know I am capable of great forgiveness.  I have forgiven my husband completely of some awful things.
I rest solidly in the knowledge that I have 100% zero feelings of resentment or anger towards him. 

If I never had to see this woman again I'm sure I could find some peace and compassion for her.  But the fact that I have to see her at all major holidays and family events just UPSETS me.  I dread the event to the point that I'm cranky in the days leading up.  I feel so depressed after a family event that I usually have to take the whole next day doing nice wonderful things for myself before I can deal with anything.  I will admit that this is not completely due to Jenny - but she's a big part of it.

I get so angry at my MIL who knows of this whole series of events and refused to speak up.  She adores my husband and cried when she learned of Jenny's behavior.  But she did nothing to stand up for him.  Shortly afterwards she even went on a vacation with Jenny and her children.  She acted like nothing was amiss.

It's been about 6 years since all this happened and I'm embarrassed to say that I can't let this go.  It's hurting me and I'm growing more bitter.  I MUST forgive and move on.  Everyone else has.  Every time she texts on the family text chain, she get's hearts and positive emojis.   I get angry.  When I venture over to their social media my heart hurts when I see them living their best life - even though she crushed mine.  And I especially get upset when she flaunts her faith and everyone acts like she is this perfect Christian woman because of her damn novenas and prayers.

I need some advice on how to properly forgive someone who has hurt me so badly.  I do not feel a conversation with her will go well.  At this point she has 8 children so if I bring up this old, old grudge she will probably scoff at me.  If I speak to her husband about this (in the hopes he will help) I fear he will mock my inability to forgive.  I can't count on any other family member to intervene.  I have tried creative writing, I have tried revisiting a therapist who knows the whole situation well.  This is something I must deal with on my own - with God.

I don't need to reconcile this relationship.  I just want to get to a point where I do not have a personal, internal, private meltdown when I see, hear or read something from her.

[bloomie]

Hopeful Spine - it is very clear you are hurting and the disappointment in your in law family's response to you and your DH rebuilding a beautiful and worthy life together is easily understood. I wish this were celebrated and lauded as it deserves because so few marriages would not only survive, but restore unless there is a great capacity to forgive and stay the course. I applaud you both!

I can tell you what began to set me on a road to healing with a sil whose behaviors have been some of the most toxic of my life experiences who was once someone I believed was a friend as well... 

I have had to distance myself from her. I do very few command presence type events with DH's family unless there is just no way out - no more celebrating all holidays together like one big happy family  - I opt out of any group text she is posturing aka participating in, I do not look at her social media accounts or cards she sends to my home and such or engage in conversation with other family members about her latest and greatest life event. When I am with her I am cool, neutral, kind, and do not attempt to have any kind of conversation with her at all and get lost in the crowd as soon as I can.

And yes, that means I have lost connections with nieces and nephews I dearly love and I have been accused of being cold, unforgiving, unloving, and not Christlike many times. And I have survived it all and I would not have survived if I had continued the status quo.

I had been so incredibly bullied by her for so many years and she has such a death grip on the majority of my DH's family, not one person will stand up to her, that I would go into a trauma response when I was around her. I would freeze or fawn. Those are my defaults. And then afterwards I would kick myself for freezing and fawning. It was a vicious cycle of self doubt and humiliation and taking up so much space in my head.

For a long time I believe that my own toxic sil came to symbolize a period of my life that was one of the most humiliating and degrading where there was an atmosphere of covert abuse in my in law family that was tolerated, excused, ignored, and others joined in. I was really young and fighting for my sense of purpose and self, with tiny babies, and very vulnerable and at the time unprotected by my DH who has had different issues than yours, but serious and painful issues we have had to work through as well.

I had to work through all of the layers of the betrayals from my in law family as part of my own healing and I couldn't do that until my marriage and FOC was on stable ground. That delayed the healing because I didn't have the strength to prioritize tending to these injuries at that time. So, maybe that is similar for you and you are dealing with these things now because you have the strength and desire to do so?

I had to get distance and you know what I found... in time...peace and empowerment. I am not unforgiving and there is no way that someone who has put their marriage back together like you have could be either.

A big part of my healing and learning to let it all go was understanding better what I had been subjected to. Years and years of covert abuse that created an atmosphere of risk, fear, and doubt of my own perceptions within me and a cascade of physical symptoms when subjected to more of the same helped me to see just how traumatizing that time had been for me and were important indicators that I had to learn to pay attention to.

A really great resource that goes into some depth about the tactics of covert abuse and the very real and important impact it has on us is found here: https://themendproject.com/am-i-the-victim-of-emotional-abuse/you-are-not-crazy/#definitions

The above linked website has a lot of great articles and ideas to read through that I found validating and so helpful. Another link to resources is found here: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=83807.0

Spiritual abuse is a real thing and incredibly damaging as well. Shaming, using God or religious practices and legalistic standards to measure the recovery of your DH and reconciliation of your marriage is completely out of bounds and not your sil's to analyze and pronounce judgement upon.

This is really a long response, but I want to add I have learned to understand (my own understanding of biblical forgiveness) that it is an exchange between two people, or between a person and God, where a wrong is acknowledged and that a debt is owed and without a wrong acknowledged and true contrition, we cannot forgive unilaterally.  What I believe and understand we are responsible to do, what is our side of the forgiveness exchange, is to do the hard work to let go of bitterness, anger, malice and to be ready to forgive should the other ask.

And should forgiveness pass between you that still doesn't mean to necessarily reconcile when the wrong is too grievous and trust is not restored. It is okay to walk away in peace.

In my own case, the acknowledgement of wrongs done to me has never come and I don't expect it. But, I have worked hard to hold no malice and wish no harm AND I cannot engage in, or return to, any kind of relationship with someone who is unsafe for me and believe I have no Biblical mandate to do so.

One of the things I have learned from hanging out here on Out of the FOG is that we are only responsible to clean up our side of the street when there has been a serious betrayal and breakdown in relationship with another person. I think about that a lot and have learned to ask: "What is mine to do?"

Strength and peace as you continue to search and find answers for your hurting heart! I am really glad you are here!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Hopeful spine,

Bloomie nailed it in regards to the work we have to do when our in laws dissappoint us like this.

I'm glad you put "nice" in quotes. You said it right. In families where problems don't get addressed and don't ever get resolved, they distance themselves from each problem ie each experience of tension. Families do this in various ways and one way ( that I've also seen) is everyone pretends to be nice. It creates ALOT of confusion in anyone who isn't PD or in the fog.

When we are getting Out of the FOG we don't want nice, we want kind. There is a world of difference.

Being nice and being healthy are two totally different things as you have seen with these folks. When healthy people are being nice, it is different than when people in a toxic group are being "nice". The nice comes at the expense of saying what we really think. In a healthy group the nice comes from the practices of adults who are mature enough to address tensions. That's why the nice you observe feels so fake. There's a lack of maturity beneath it. Its an attempt to act the way emotionally healthy people act ...but humans evolved to spot the difference because our own health depends on our ability to do so. To spot the difference you've spotted in them.

Jenny sounds very controlling. Your MIL didn't assert herself with her and that upset you. MIL did what worked for her.

So I think Bloomie said it best. You are not responsible for their choices and if you can address, with yourself, how dissapointed in them you are, forgiveness may start with forgiving yourself for wishing they were different.

This is who they are.

The reality is that it is extremely difficult to forgive our in laws and MIL for being such a disappointment to us. It's a tough road. An important road.

I have been working on this too and it doesn't end with me and MIL sharing the friendship I wanted. That's not what forgiveness brings, when there was no friendship in the first place. Forgiveness brings and end to the resentment and bitterness as Bloomie described.

I too have lost out on many experiences and connections because of dysfunctional family dynamics. Walking away from the toxic behaviours was the only way to be free of them, for me. Bloomie made a really good point too about the status quo. I have come to believe that the status quo is to live in the fog (of family dysfunction.) Thats why most of us feel so confused when we first step Out of the FOG.

There isnt a lot of cultural understanding yet about what it means to get Out of the FOG. People with relatively healthy families constantly deny the existence of foggy families, which creates isolation for those of us who work to get Out of the FOG. Those of us who have been there get it. Some families are deeply, deeply foggy.

Trees

[Hopeful Spine]

I had to work through all of the layers of the betrayals from my in law family as part of my own healing and I couldn't do that until my marriage and FOC was on stable ground. That delayed the healing because I didn't have the strength to prioritize tending to these injuries at that time. So, maybe that is similar for you and you are dealing with these things now because you have the strength and desire to do so?

WOW!  Thank you so much for your entire post and especially the above.  This makes A LOT of sense.  A LOT. 

I spent years in an unhappy marriage, then the cheating.  It took about two and a half years for me to completely forgive and be satisfied with my husband.  There was a process of forgiveness and rebuilding trust.  Not just for the cheating but for the years of anger I'd been holding on to.

He worked really, really hard on all levels but I found I also needed to do some work.  I'd been a doormat all those years.  I didn't stick up for myself.  I sort of got used to people calling me a saint for putting up with my husband.  That was my strength.  Being "better" than him.  I'm sure you'll agree that this sort of mindset is totally unhealthy.  So while he was improving himself I had to learn how to express myself, create boundaries, and confront situations.

I was still working on myself when she unexpectantly insulted us.  Like one weekend I was a guest in her home bringing a casserole and the next she's telling me that my husband is trash.  It was baffling.  Shocking.  I struggled to get to the bottom of it and she gave me a bunch of stupid scapegoated reasons why she was right.

It immediately brought me back to a shameful time that I wasn't prepared to relive.  I didn't want to rehash the hurtful things or the recovery but she was forcing me to do so.  It was humiliating and instead of being outraged that she said those things - I played the victim and kind of took it.   To be honest I didn't stick up for my husband the way I should have.  I was shocked that she turned on us.  I was scared that we wouldn't get to be a part of her children lives.  I later stuck up for us in several well crafted emails.  But my words were twisted by Jenny and her husband and I felt more pathetic than ever.

And nothing in this family has ever been the same since.  Everyone knew she behaved this way and at the time told us that they thought she was crazy.  We had a bit of support but then everyone went into the "nice" mode and sort of stepped back from us.

At that point I realized how toxic it all way.  I used to think that my husband was treated badly because he drank so much and caused minor problems.  When we were excluded from things I'd think, "well, who can blame them - he was an awful drunk."  But in 10 years of constant efforts to improve himself - not much has changed.  It's incredibly unfair to be punished this long.  I now believe that in this large family - he was the perfect scapegoat.  And now that he's not giving them new material - they don't know how to treat him/us.

So maybe my issue isn't about awful Jenny and her husband or all the other fake "nice" people.  Or the subtle exclusions or obvious digs.  Maybe my real issue is that I'm just not "there" yet.  Maybe there is a possibility that I need to continue to work on forgiving myself for all the years I was weak.

I truly feel, incredibly better.  Thank you!!

I could use any tips on how to function within this family and keep my self esteem.  For instance, my "go to" when I arrive at a party is to be friendly and extend a happy hello.  When I show up at a family event I do this.  Those in the room ignore us, finish their conversation and then turn their heads and say (in a bored tone), "Oh, hey."  My solution has been say nothing when I enter a party and wait to be acknowledged, thinking that maybe I was being obnoxious or something.  Now I will extend a cool but friendly hello when someone finally greets me.  Then I feel weird and "off".  And then I feel even worse when someone else enters the room (one of the "popular" people) and everyone is all like, "HEY THERE!!!  How was the drive."  It's like flipping high school and I can't stand it.

Or when a family member slides out his phone while I am talking to him and starts checking out social media.  How do you point out how rude that is without looking like a bitch?

I have tons more examples of the ways we seem to have to endure being treated in this family.  It's maddening.  We spend time after the party trying to figure out - were we conversation hogs?  Did we offend someone?  Was someone not feeling well and that is why we were treated rudely?  Are we just too high maintenance?  It's insane.

I truly appreciate you taking your time to give me your insights.  I'm going to reread them later and continue to dig into those links you provided.  Thank you so much!!!

[Hopeful Spine]

So I think Bloomie said it best. You are not responsible for their choices and if you can address, with yourself, how dissapointed in them you are, forgiveness may start with forgiving yourself for wishing they were different.

I too have lost out on many experiences and connections because of dysfunctional family dynamics. Walking away from the toxic behaviours was the only way to be free of them, for me. Bloomie made a really good point too about the status quo. I have come to believe that the status quo is to live in the fog (of family dysfunction.) Thats why most of us feel so confused when we first step Out of the FOG.

Thank you too for all your kind words and insights.  Confused is exactly the right word.  I'm sick of playing their games.  I'm sick of expecting them to be different and trying to change myself to fit into how they want ME to behave.  But I guess I'm doing it to them as well.  I want them to be kind, supportive, and inclusive.  They are not.  And somehow I began to believe that if I provide the example or tried harder, I will be rewarded with the sort of relationship I expected out of them.  It's NOT going to happen.  I've wasted a lot of years trying and maybe that is why I don't give up - because I don't want to admit that I'm completely wrong and have been for some time.

They just all seem to like and accept each other a lot more than they like us and it hurts.  Even family friends are included and greeted more warmly than we are.  I really feel for my husband when he notices how much his own father favors outsiders more than him.

But thank you so much for your time and your words.  It's given me a great deal to think about and it's put me on a more positive path.

[treesgrowslowly]

It was a huge turning point for me when I realized that immature adults will favour people why buy their BS.

That's it.

Thats why they like impressing strangers. It's easier. My PD mother greets strangers warmly. I've seen it my whole life.

The fact that they don't greet you all warmly is a sign that you are a real person they can't BS.

I've learned there are people who truly truly just want to SEEM nice. They have no idea how to engage in anything Im interested in, socially or friendship wise.

Without trust there is no friendship.

Some people are confusing because they will never be able to clearly explain themselves. Its all confusing because we don't think like them. For them life is appearances.

You asked about practical tips for being around them.

When I am with people I know are foggy, I am reserved (ie grey rock), and I limit my time with them. Because otherwise grey rocking with them starts to trigger me too much and my health is too important.

I find grey rocking to be effective in social situations but also exhausting emotionally. Sometimes It takes a lot to recharge afterwards.

After I grey rock around people I feel numb or stressed, or anxious, and then resentful. I have to re-focus on myself every time.

Talking about it helps. Thanks for your posts. Sharing here helps me as well.

Trees

[all4peace]

My heart hurts for you. I can hear the anguish in your voice. You say you MUST forgive. Here's something I want to suggest....hold that more loosely, like a fragile bird. I heard someone speak about forgiveness recently. They said that sometimes the best we can do, for now, is to simply acknowledge to ourselves that we wish to be forgiving. It's a growth process, sometime a very, very long one, and it may be enough to simply speak that wish to yourself and your God.

And sometimes maybe we truly have forgiven but the other person simply isn't demonstrating anything that allows us to trust them and step back into relationship.

In your last response, you describe agonizing over your behavior at get-togethers, trying to figure out if you're behaving wrong or what's the best way to respond to someone who is actively rudely shutting you out by pulling out their phone while you're talking.... PLEASE save yourself years of pain and simply trust me (us) on this one--it's very, very likely not you. You speak with a lot of self awareness. You've gone through gut-wrenching betrayal trauma and self-reflection and therapy. Those are very painful and searching processes, and I very highly doubt you're the problem. I believe it is far more likely the sh!tty way that passive-aggressive and covert-aggressive people behave when they're trying to shun someone without appearing to do so. My DH, I and our kids have been on the receiving end of this behavior for decades. It burns right through you. It is so poisonous and toxic.

These days, we rarely spend time with DH's family, never more than 1-2 hrs at a time. I hope we're not bitter. I don't think I have much resentment, anger or unforgiveness left. It's simply really difficult to come up with good reasons to spend part of our precious life with people who treat us like this. And so we rarely do. Life is SO much more beautiful without hours and days of anxiety ahead of time, hours and days of being rejected, followed by hours and days of rehashing it. If I could do it over again, I would have ended it  MUCH sooner. We wasted so much time and energy, and still ended up with no relationship.

[Hopeful Spine]

It's a growth process, sometime a very, very long one, and it may be enough to simply speak that wish to yourself and your God.

And sometimes maybe we truly have forgiven but the other person simply isn't demonstrating anything that allows us to trust them and step back into relationship.

Thanks so much for your words.  I think that the rebuilding of trust is what holds me back.  I've forgiven my husband for far worst than the things my SIL said.  So why can't I move on from her offensive opinion and unfair words?  Probably because she's never apologized for any comments (not even the ones I was personally offended by), never took back any of those words.  Years later I have no idea where we stand with her and it makes me feel awkward.  She could be ashamed and regrets her words.  Or she might never think of that day. 

If I never had to see her again I could get over things and find peace.  But if I want to visit my husbands parents on a holiday I will HAVE to deal with her.  I will HAVE to watch other family members be sweet and kind to her.  And that just makes me feel sick.

Thank you for telling me that you believe that this treatment is likely not my fault.  It means a lot to me to read that.  I'm learning boundaries and it's hard to feel offended and not know if I'm at fault or if my expectations are too high.  My inclination is to be hurt instead of offended.  When I start off by being offended I begin to feel hurt because I don't know why I've been disrespected.  Bottom line is that I spend a lot of time being hurt by a group of people who all seem to be functioning just fine.  I'm the odd one out which makes ME feel like I'm the problem. 

The really sad part of all of this is that my husband (THEIR sibling) get's treated the worse.  He spent so many years trying to fit in and that damaged him greatly.  Now that he's becoming more authentic and in turn successful in most aspects of his life - it's still not good enough.  Heartbreaking.