I can see more every day

[Jsinjin]

Today DD1 had a therapy meeting with her counselor.    DD is at home because college is online only and she has a frosty relationship with her mother, my uOCPDw.    Out of surprise I was invited by DD to attend the last 10 min of her counseling session where I shared some concerns I had and listened.   I learned that DR is trying to control her tendency to be dismissive and abrupt and even mean when I or her mother ask questions like "how is college going?" Which I felt was a good step.   

When uOCPDw arrived home this evening is spoke about the discussion and relayed the things I had learned.    W went on the offensive with a statement about how she doesn't trust DD and if she truly is applying to 4 year colleges did I actually see the applications physically.    (Back story, DD1 graduated at the top of her class and went to one of the US military academies and had to withdraw after a year because of anxiety and depression.    oCPdw was very hurt and I think that DD has felt this.   Regardless, what I felt were positive steps were met with attacks on me and DD and a clear mistrust of everything that was discussed.    I was repulsed by the conversation and kept trying to get out of it and get away.   I feel so sorry for uOCPDw because of the level of anger, mistrust and disappointment she has.

[Free2Bme]

Jsinjin,

Great to hear DD is in T, if it were one of my kido's I would bend over backwards to encourage and support that effort.  I am sorry your DD had that experience with anxiety and depression, they don't call it 'Black Dog' for nothing.  The fact that you were invited to 'sit in' at end of session speaks volumes.  Seems she must see you as the most likely parent to have an reasonable response to her speaking up and desire to be heard.  This could be an opportunity for further dialogue as to how you could ask about college in a way that conveys car and concern but doesn't provoke her dismissive/abrupt response.  It is unfortunate for your DD and you that uocpdw seems to take things personally.  Your DD needs you, hopefully there will be a chance you can ask her what you can do to help.

[Jsinjin]

I don't know how to have the strength to leave.   I desperately want to.   Away from here is like a brief oasis.   I can drive around the lake or go for a jog but then it's back to this hell.   I'm so forgiving and so scared to leave.    I just don't want to hurt someone but she won't change.    I feel so stuck and so lost.   I have had encouragement from friends and family and still I'm afraid of her and afraid of hurting her all at the same time.   I don't know what to do.

[Poison Ivy]

Do you have a therapist, jsinjin? 

[pushit]

I just don't want to hurt someone but she won't change. 

People only change when THEY want to.  You need to read that slowly.  Twice.  She won't change, trust me bud.

It was the same with my exPDw.  I tried for years.  Bent over backwards, did everything for her, cooked all meals (always receiving criticism), did the grocery shopping, fixed her car, stood up to her, bowed down to her, stood up for my kids, let her scream at the kids, everything in my arsenal.  Only to find out that despite all my efforts I was deemed as an "abusive, alcoholic, lazy husband" by anyone that would listen to her.  Even though I was working myself ragged trying to hold the family together.  Then, all of a sudden I realized that I needed to change because it wasn't working.  It was ME that needed to change, not her.  Read that last sentence again.  Twice.

I started making her responsible for all of her emergencies.  I expected her to let me know whether or not the kids needed dinner after their sports practice.  If she didn't text me back, no dinner made.  If she made a commitment to someone else, I expected her to handle it rather than dump it on me.  Her promising my help to other people?  Nope.  All that stuff.  Basically, I found my self-respect again and forced her to honor it, which of course she wouldn't.  So, the marriage was in a death spin at that point but I wasn't going back.

So Brother, what I see is that you are a great guy with a huge heart.  That's great, don't abandon that.  It's a strength until it's a fault.  But you need to set boundaries, come hell or high water.  I agree with the above post that your daughter sees you as someone that can be trusted to join her therapy sessions.  That's a huge sign.  She trusts you over your wife.  I can tell you from my experience that after my divorce, my kids have opened up to me like never before.  My house is safe for them to be them, and they talk to me very openly because they know that.  I'm able to actually be Dad now, because my exPDw isn't there to run interference.

What could your life be like if you chose you and your kids over the fear of hurting someone?

[Jsinjin]

Thank you, pushit:

My dissertation advisor had three things as quotes on the door outside his office:

"All the easy problems have been solved"

"A problem doesn't last long if there is a simple solution"

" It is unwise to seem prominence in a field whose routine chores you do not enjoy"

The third one isn't applicable here because we are parents or significant others or spouses whether we worked hard at it or just fell into it.

But I often chastise myself for not fixing things faster.   Obviously I'm not lazy or deceitful or intentionally staying in this situation if I'm trying to solve it and if it were easy the solution would have already been implemented.    If all of the interactions with PD people in our lives were simple then there wouldnt be a complex website and forum devoted to helping navigate the interactions with them. 

I was writing last night and realized the above and that this isn't a simple fast solution for any of us; it's a complex impactful chess game with someone on the other side who suffers from a disorder.

For a while now I've been upset about a lost friend who closed herself off to me and put up a boundary that I was not to contact her anymore because I had not taken steps to leave.   That hurt a lot because of the loss of a good and trusted friend.   Her comments made me feel weak and ineffective and like a pitiful person wallowing in a pit of my own design.   But in my review of this whole thing I realize that if this were an easy problem it would be solved and I like solving problems.

I can completely see my path and the conflicts that will be in place both anticipated and unanticipated for me to have a happier life for me and my kids and I appreciate the help this forum and others give.   

Last night I told alexa "put on music like def leppard" (my spouse hates my 80s rock) and patiently made the kids work with me to clean every dish in the kitchen and wipe down every surface and out them all away.   My spouse stayed away because she hated the music.   It may or may not have been "right" in terms of the correct placement of dishes in drawers or best way to load the dishwasher or wasting more water by cleaning everything blah blah etc etc but this morning the kitchen was blissfully clean, the black countertops werre free of spots and crap, dishes didn't sit with caked on crud, it was possible to get to the sink without piling up dishes and the only person who may or may not have been impacted was my uOCPDw who only mentioned "I stayed away last night because that music is horrible".  The kids learned about doing a good job on menial tasks that should be done and I got to quiz them about different rock bands and sing in a loud dad voice with air guitar.   

That's not a solution at all.   I didn't move out, I didn't file for divorce but I did learn how I like to interact and that something as simple as doing dishes and putting stuff away is OK.  It felt good

[pushit]

You're absolutely right in that there is no easy solution to it.  It takes time to get out, and time to heal.  I am living proof of that (as are countless others on this site).  I am out, and a million times happier in my own house now, but my exPDw still tries to cause problems for me and the kids.  Like they say, it's a marathon, not a sprint.  The difference is that now that I have my own space my head is clear and I can think logically about how to respond to her behavior.  It's to the point where I can accurately predict her behavior and understand her reasons for doing it.  I see now that it's a self defense mechanism for her, she's not an evil person that wants to manipulate everyone.  It's just a very unhealthy way to deal with people.  While we were living together it was endless turmoil and shouting, now it's an occasional bump in the road that I have to mitigate.

Your example about the music in the kitchen rings true to me.  That was something I started doing near the end as well.  In the early days of our marriage I would make a concerted effort to choose music she wouldn't criticize, but then I realized it was the act of criticizing it (and me) that fueled her and not the actual music.  Towards the end I just blared whatever rock music I wanted to hear, and if she didn't like it oh well.  Like you said, it's not a solution, but it is a way of asserting who you are as an individual.  The trouble is that asserting your individual self is a big no-no in a PD relationship, they can't stand that.  The fact that they don't like that is not healthy, it's part of the disorder.  Every person in a relationship should have the right to continue being who they are.  Of course there is a middle ground here too.  If my exPDw politely asked "could we listen to something else" I would honor that, but if she was being critical and nasty about "that horrible music" I would just let it play.  Good for you on asserting yourself and letting your kids see the real playful Dad that you are.

[Free2Bme]

jsinjin,

   First, IME with my uxpdh I was reduced to every thought, spoken word, deed was filtered through my mind as "how can I minimize pain to me and kid's, RIGHT NOW".  I turned myself inside-out with  six degrees of machinations for only a chance at getting a little peace (fake peace), until the next time.  The proverbial mouse-wheel going nowhere.   

When the day-to-day objective is to mitigate psychological pain, one cannot expect to function wholly and normally.  I was not insane, disturbed, depressed or disordered, but I was maxxed out mentally, and emotionally.  This affected my outlook on life, I felt trapped in a room with no doors.  This was the single most limiting factor for me, I literally could not imagine how life could be any different and could not imagine the absence of constant dread.  It kept me stuck, and running on the wheel.  In all kindness, this is what I hear when I read your posts.

If I may, would it be alright for me to add some context and female perspective? I want to be careful with this but, as a woman, I would be thrilled if my husband were to do the things that you describe doing for your family along with your attitude of doing it as an act of service expressing care for home and family.  If my hypothetical husband were to ever put on def leppard (or any other enjoyable music) and rock out in the kitchen, I would be right there working alongside, having fun.  My response would have been one of gratitude, affection and desire to reciprocate love and care.  Just sayin'.

I am not unique or special, I know several women that would respond positively and similarly.  I just wanted to point out what I think would be a 'normal' reaction in this particular scenario.  Now that I am thankfully out of that environment, my head is clear; like when you get over a cold and are tasting food again, life tastes great!  As long as you are being drained in the day-to-day, it is hard to keep a level (hopeful) perspective.  What you are experiencing now, doesn't represent your potential life experience could be in the future.  Take inventory of the strongholds that are upon you, maybe a belief system or coping mechanism that is no longer useful (I have lots of these to sort through). Is there a benefit to continuing on this road?  If this factor were removed, what might you fill that void with?
Hoping I didn't overstep

   

[Gingerbread Latte]

Jsinjin,

Even though I'm a new poster, I've been following your story for a long time. As I read your postings, I am reminded of the saying by Ravi Agrival,  "Everything you want is on the other side of fear." As I sit here at my breakfast nook in my new apartment eating homemade soup, I just wanted to let you know that this saying is true. Once you break through your fear, your life will start to improve.

I discovered this website nearly 5 years ago and have been a daily reader ever since. It didn't take me long to realize that my husband probably had a mix of OCPD, BPD with a sprinkling of NPD and PPD. For many years, I wanted to leave, but I was paralyzed by fear. Will leaving screw up my kids? Will leaving push my husband over the edge? What I did know is that staying with my husband was sucking the life out of me and was bad for my health (I am on medication for hypertension and depression). Unfortunately, leaving was incredibly scary.

Last year, I had a dream where I was sitting at a picnic table and a man in white sat down across from me. He asked, "why haven't you left yet?" I replied, "fear". He replied, "what are you afraid of?" and then I woke up. Ever since then, I've been trying to answer that question, "what am I afraid of?" In my case, was my leaving going to screw up my kids' lives, can I live on my own successfully, can I live with chronic pain/future disability?, etc.

It took me months, but I finally worked through all the things that I was afraid of and realized that the status quo was worse than my fears. Shortly after Christmas, my husband threw a full plastic bottle of water in anger. It wasn't directed at me, but it was a new and troublesome behavior and was the final straw that compelled me to leave. Three months later, I am in my own place enjoying the peace and quiet.

Jsinjin, I pray that you and your children find the same peace and quiet that I, and many other posters have found.

Gingerbread Latte