Parenting the flea-ridden

[NumbLotus]

Thank you so much, I really needed to hear about six different things in your post.

Unfortunately, I seem to still be emotionally blocked from dealing with this. I'm surprised at myself. I think my suck-it-up just plain broke.

DD asked me to make her a sandwich, I told her to make her own sandwich, and she burst out asking why I was doing this to her. It was difficult for me because I simultaneously felt ashamed of myself and also annoyed at her entitlement.

She played the PD game. Circular argument. Pretended she couldn't remember the original incident, then would switch to citing details, then pretending again. Pretended I never told her anything was wrong despite text evidence. The whole thing was just denying, deflecting, no interest in resolving things. Tried to switch the order of things. Felt like the only problem was me. I haaaaaated hearing this PD crap out of her mouth. This was the first time I had a full blown circular argument with her and I loathed it.

I cut it off after a few minutes. I know all too well that trying to explain what should have been learned in Kindergarten doesn't work.

I'm ashamed of myself but I'm stuck.

[Free2Bme]

NL,
That is tough, and I experience disappointments with DD sometimes when we are out of synch with each other.   I took a course for my degree on child development, I learned that the prefrontal cortex of the brain is the last to develop in young adults, girls around early twenties and boys a bit later.  The prefrontal cortex is responsible for things like emotional regulation and impulse control, so teens struggle because they are not fully developed/mature and are not supposed to be.  I have to remind myself of this and adjust my expectations to 'age appropriate'.  Some of what you describe is normal for her age, so just try not to take it personally (especially since we are all stressed with shelter-in-place orders) .  Sometimes this becomes more difficult if we are feeling loss in our spousal relationships.  Don't beat yourself up for being 'chilly' to DD, just try and move forward.  I'm not saying that you don't address her behavior, just keep it in perspective.

Just saw your recent post.   It's good that you cut it off when started going south.  Don't be ashamed! These are trying circumstances for all.  You modeled that this type of communication ends with a time out, that is good for both of you.  I really get the feeling of hitting a wall and not having any more to give.  Maybe, for now,  you could tell her that the issue is shelved until a better time when you can deal with it constructively, tell her you are upset but you love her and that you will talk after a time-out.

Give yourself a break and some rest if you can

[Medowynd]

My younger daughter had a mouth on her and could be quite disrespectful.  I asked her if she spoke and treated her friends the way that she treated me.  No, she didn't.  I asked her if I spoke to her disrespectfully and was rude to her.  I asked her if she had ever seen m speak to anyone like that and she said that I wasn't rude and disrespectful to others.  So I asked her, why she felt that she could be rude and disrespectful to me and not others.  She had no answer, but toned it down after that.  I had to remind her occasionally about her rudeness, but kept it limited, to more major blow ups.

[NumbLotus]

I need a script or a goal or something.

What I want is for her to make some sort of emotional effort. It doesn't have to be "I'm sorry" but maybe "I really didn't mean it like that" in a sincere tone of voice.

The problem is, I'm not going to get any of that. The best I'll get is something that will leave me feeling worse, not better.

I'm trying to hear you guys that it's all normal for the age. I know the original incident is normal. But the response feels totally abnormal to me.

When I was 14, I had empathy. Maybe I'd be a brat for a minute, but the people I cared about never doubted I did.

My friends at age 14, same thing. Everyone cared. Even my BPD friend, she would explode when triggered, but she cared very, very much. Other teens I have watched grow up from the vantage of adulthood, same thing.

My kid only cares that I serve her a sandwich. This whole thing has been merely inconvenient to her because in my super mature stonewalling, I've stopped the ridiculous servant duties and now she's had to turn to her grandmother for service instead.

I haven't tried to resolve this because I am going to feel worse coming out of this, not better. If I need a sign she cares about anyone but herself, it's gonna hurt.

If looking for a sign she cares is not the goal, then what is? Give me a script.

[NumbLotus]

I sat down and explained that while she hurt my feelings the other day, it wasn't a very big deal - but the thing that really hurt was that she didn't try to fix it when it was obvious she hurt my feelings.

She said, "sorry."

I said I appreciated that.

I still feel a distance, now not because of this but we have no closeness rituals anymore. She has not wanted me to touch her, including hug her, for a few years.

I made a huge mistake, I think. Years and years ago, the BPDish part of H was threatened by my closeness with DD. he made this clear. I was confused and didn't undertand what was going on. Eventually I found myself pulling away in order to reduce the issue. Stupid, I know. I feel so incredibly sad about this and all the terrible mistakes I've made.

I never meant to, like, never hug her again. I don't even know how it happened. But now I can't - she hates it. If I ask if I can hug her, the answer is No. I did one time get her to very reluctantly and stiffly accept a hug last year.

Her friend's grandmother hugs her all the time.

How did I screw this up so bad?

So anyway, she apologized adequately and I still feel a chasm, not blaming her, I just feel it.

[Lauren17]

NL, let me share my experience with you. Maybe it will help.
When DD the elder turned about 12, she stopped wanting to be touched/hugged by me. She would pull away or stand there stiffly, if I tried to hug her. The phase seems to be passing as she gets older.
I'm seeing DD the younger doing the same thing with me now.
Note that this seems to be particular to mom. Grandmas, friends, sisters, cousins, dads are all eagerly and happily hugged. It hurts and it's not fair, but there it is.

[1footouttadefog]

I'm sorry to read that this chasm is still their and that you are still feeling a distance with your child. 

I can imagine myself making statements like the following to see what responded I would get.

D, I  feeling like our relationship is getting more distant of late. There are so many things we used to do that we no longer do.  There is no affection, communicating  is strained , I cannot see to find a common activity for us to participate in.

We don't have casual conversations any more. Many recent attempt at communicating devolved into negative experiences for one or both of us.

I get plenty or request and demands for service to your benefit like cooking and cleaning but this is not reciprocated when I ask for dishes to be washed etc.

Am I missing something or have I been somehow demoted from Mom to a servant or maid of some kind.   I can assure you Instill love you and the law changes hurt.  I miss my daughter and the connection we should be having.

[PeanutButter]

Imo if its hard for us as adults to not take things personally then how much harder might it be for a child even a teenage child to not take words, actions, and inactions personally?

'I made a huge mistake, I think. Years and years ago, the BPDish part of H was threatened by my closeness with DD. he made this clear. I was confused and didn't undertand what was going on. Eventually I found myself pulling away in order to reduce the issue. Stupid, I know. I feel so incredibly sad about this and all the terrible mistakes I've made.''

Could some good possibly come from turning this around, as the adult, and imagine her pain that could be buried under these defenses (or fleas which may be inadequate coping skills) Please dont accept this narrative by your IV (inner voice) as a certian reality: "My kid only cares that I serve her a sandwich."
Certianly EVERY KID wants to be loved and nurtured by their mother!
You have the insight that you are triggered so we know that dd did not give you the origional wound, but is simply reactivating it with her behavior. I humbly and with care in my heart suggest working on the origional wound.
IME dropping ALL judgement of ourselves and others leads to healing.
Not to say you shouldnt point out rudness but no healing in the relationship can come from the  'she is rude and wont apologise being that she is pd and cares about nothing'.
You asked for a script. Idk. Could you want her to prove to you she DOESNT have a pd by measuring her up to certian expectations you have ie: if she doesnt have a personality disorder then she would come and apologise to me...?
All of this I say with compassion I hope it doesnt hurt you! If it isnt helpful disregard it of course.
Coincidentally I just read this yesterday. It is so painful but true https://www.peacecounselinggroup.com/2010/05/25/just-what-are-you-insinuating/ that with the best of intentions and being the best we can we may still write with our mistakes on the clean slate of our children. It is part of the human condition IMO
 

[NumbLotus]

Wow, thanks for these great replies. I will address them and then post an update.

Lauren17, that is interesting. I hope eventually the phase will pass like it seems to be doing for your older DD. fir my DD, it's not mom only, she doesn't want hugs from her father or anyone else including friends, and in fact abhire any kind of touch. I think she has some sensitivity issue - she also has misophonia (is disturbed by certain ordinary sounds). She allows the friend's grandmother to hug her but I dunno if she just barely tolerates it ir is more okay with it - the grandmother is super huggy and cuddly and has been a "grandmother" to DD since she was 3. DD said that the grandmother just hugs so she just deals.

1foot, thank you, I appreciate the scrilt idea. I have an update I'll post next but I really do appreciate it.

PB, you've pointed out some really crucial things. I'm intellectually aware that as a parent, I need to be dealing with the situation as an adult, being calm and loving and guiding and not making it all personal. I think sometimes I can do that but this time I just couldn't get past my emotions. It was humbling and difficult. I usually can deal by understanding that DD isn't "done yet" but I was feeling a loss of hope, and I was stuck. And some of it was just having a lot of non-DD emotions that are just overflowing.

There is definitely pain buried under DD's defenses. She is very anxious and has coped by being obsessive about her interests. She told me she fills her eery waking thought with her ibsessions like a show or music artist or YouTuber to drown out her anxious thoughts. She's explained that her brain screams catastophe constantly, like if she's walking down a sidewalk and a car comes by her brain shouts "that car is going to jumb the curb and kill you!!" Constantly. And that's on top of the family dysfunction with a bizarrely unwell father who has mkstly lost contact with her (he used to be a GREAT father and was always extremely intereted in her, now he is in a fig and barely thinks about her) and the tension between her parents, and my coling by hiding in my room (always available to her, and she comes in freely, but the house feels empty and cold rather than a place where people live).

Anyway, yes, she is carrying quite a load.

Will read your link later on.

[NumbLotus]

It's a good update. After the brief "talk," we didn't have any closeness rituals but things just thawed out naturally over the next day as we both let down our guards again.

I found the thing I was looking for, the thing I sincerely and strongly feared was not there, that I couldn't see at all. I have glimpsed she does care. I saw it in the way she, after things thawed out, suddenly spent a lot of time in the room with me (granted with headphones on and doing her own thing - but in the same room rather than alone in hers). She has been telling me about all the tuff she's intereted in - something she watched, a silly Snap she sent a friend, a music artist she is into. Just sharing her mind with me and being excited about it.

And, I see her making an EFFORT. She has been saying thank you more, and her requests have softened from demands to somewhat more polite requests. She still SIGHS and UGHS when asked to do things, but less. Like, instead of digging in her heels she'll just sigh as she is going to DO it. Also she does the dishes on her nights without a squawk lol.

I'm not just talking about her being more compliant/less rude directly, I'm talking about reading between the lines and seeing she is making an effort for me.

The game I got that she blew me off on so rudely, we've been olaying about an hour a night, and we play music and she talks nonstop while we play.

Anyway, I will have my low points again no doubt but now I have this to hold on to, I see through those chinks enough to know she's still in there. And that's what I really needed.

[1footouttadefog]

One thing that helped with my teens was openly discussing the loss of a parent and family member as my spouses mental health has deteriorated.

I openly discuss my reasons for staying verses leaving and that I constantly weigh and balance what is best for them amd us as a family.

I also empower them to set boundaries and encourage them to be assertive toward pdh while remaining respectful in tone. 

[Poison Ivy]

 

[Poison Ivy]

@NumbLotus, how are things going for you and your daughter?

[NumbLotus]

Thanks for thinking of us!

I feel just much better feeling like I've seen she cares, which as I think I said, everyone here is probably all "well duh" but I really wasn't sure.

I did have a dustup with her where I found out there were two small homework assignments she hadn't handed in from February (she was probably out sick and just didn't make them up) that were dragging her grade down. I knew she would resist doing them but I was surprised at how much resistance she put up. I was in good humor but it was just all BS about how she had so much ither homework to do and no she wasn't doing it now because she has a LIFE blah blah.

Anyway, the point is that I felt differently because of knowing she's not lost to me.

I told her she had a choice. She could hand in one of the assignments that night and the other the next night, and give me proof. Or, if I got up in the morning and I didn't have proof, I'd take her phone and sit in the room with her while she did it. And I just left the room rather than keep arguing. I was super firm, too, she knew I wasn't messing around.

30 minutes later, proof was emailed to me.

Next night, same thing.

I AM the night watchman, and I WILL lock those doors!

[PeanutButter]

You know thats really fantastic. 
It sounds like you have noticed how much of an effect your inner narrative has on your functioning in relationships.
IE no longer 'telling yourself your D was lost to you'.

[1footouttadefog]

Kids actually want order and guidance and structure in their lives.  Good job.

[NumbLotus]

It's this tricky thing about boundaries, here.

I accept I can't control another person - not my H, nor my MIL, my mother, the rude lady at the drugstore, etc. I own my stuff and their stuff is theirs. Not always easy but I have it understood in my mind, even if I do make mistakes from time to time.

But my kid. I'm her parent. I am obligated to her and to society to do my best to bring up a person with integrity, with basic life skills, who can conduct her behavior and emotions appropriately. While that is absolutely true, I have to get it fixed in my head that as a parent, I am a guide, a teacher, a coach, all of those examples and models that still obey the laws of boundaries 

99% of the time, this is fine. But when she is especially rude or entitled or manipulative or whatever, my emotions go HOW DARE SHE. I can't BELIEVE she could be so bratty or selfish or care so little about others.

There is this delicate place where it's possible to neither give up and condine the behaviir but also not crash over the boundaries.

She is her own person and she makes her own choices. I do not need to tolerate her bad behavior, but I also can't MAKE her change.

I can't MAKE her change, but I also don't have to throw up my hands and say "oh well." A fine line, there. Hard to wrap the head around.

I control myself, not her. I can expect her to do dishes twice a week. I can't MAKE her do it. I can control myself and my emotions and enforce choices for her. It's not that I'm allowing her to not do the dishes, it's just boundaries. She can do the dishes or I can take her phone or tell her friend's mom that she can't come over later or whatever.

Maybe it looks the same on the outside, but it's different on the inside. There's an acceptance. She makes her own choices. I make mine.

As a parent, I do have the right to interfere more than with an adult, I can take her phone or cancel an activity. But it still respects the boundaries that she is ultimately in charge of her choices and her expressions, and even her values. I can choose some of her consequences.

The difference is not butting heads. End of power struggle. I stop trying to make her think and feel the way I want her to, I just decide what *I* will do to enforce MY boundaries. And I can model good emotional management and the values I care about.

It's not just about taking her phone away, either. I needed help with something that would have been very easy for her (but I couldn't do being legally blind). She resisted instead of just frickin doing it. My mom got up and did it for her  The way that particular scenario unfolded, I let it go right then instead of getting mad, and after a while I saw her alone and I just looked her in the eye and quietly said, "you should have done that" and then just dropped it. Maybe you could pick apart my phrasing, but the difference was I didn't try to make her agree, I just said my piece and moved on. I saw her eyes drop when I said it. She heard me. It's up to her what she does next time I need help.

[PeanutButter]

..... I needed help with something that would have been very easy for her (but I couldn't do being legally blind). She resisted instead of just frickin doing it. My mom got up and did it for her  The way that particular scenario unfolded, I let it go right then instead of getting mad, and after a while I saw her alone and I just looked her in the eye and quietly said, "you should have done that" and then just dropped it. Maybe you could pick apart my phrasing, but the difference was I didn't try to make her agree, I just said my piece and moved on. I saw her eyes drop when I said it. She heard me. It's up to her what she does next time I need help.

Was she able to express to you her feelings about or a reason for not wanting to immediately do it or not wanting to do it at all?
Does she know what your expectations are for her in regards to your requests that are due to your blindness?

[NumbLotus]

We didn't discuss that particular event, but she has at times expressed that she is transactional, doesn't really care about others, is "just lazy," and risks nothing to see if she can get out of having to do a thing.

No, these aren't my words, or her being sarcastic. These are her sincere assessments.

As an aside, she often goes on rants about how much she hates children, never having children. She has asked me in all sincerity why someone would have a child - what do we get out of it? I've tried to describe the joys of seeing children explore the world, and taking care of them, but she says she doesn't get it - those things don't have any value to her.

Also, when I point out things like "how would you feel if you were in the other position" or similar, she says "that's different. I care about myself."

So she sincerely is low on empathy. She must just be built that way. Fortunately, she is not malignant at all, and is cheerful and she is not unkind to people nor destructive. Just views the world with the lens "what's in it for me?" And not grandiose or waify at all, happy to live her life but not interested in doing anything she doesn't feel like doing.

I dislike that, but I can't climb inside her mind and change it. She may improve somewhat with age but is likely going to be something like this forever. Her grandmother and great grandmother (on H's side) are/were also pleasant, cheerful, and a bit weird in the empathy department (in different ways).

About my expectations, well, I did clearly and reasonably express my request and the reason for it, but she didn't want to and when my mother got up to do it, it was "problem solved" for her. She is crystal clear on my condition.

Lol she is the WORST at guiding when she has to. She drags me around in an anxious panic. She may have ADD as well as anxiety, so thinking about what is coming up or what I need to know is too much for her. (My H is really bad too - the only good thing is if I've got his arm, I am not going to fall!). We've been taking walks around the neighborhood and she will suddenly react and announce "Oh my god mom! You just stepped on a dead frog!" And I'll be like "this is your JOB!! Tell me BEFORE I step on a dead freaking frog!" And she'll say "I didn't notice it until you stepped on it!!" Such is my life. (It's all light hearted).

[PeanutButter]

Oh my what did you do before she was old enough to do this job and what are you going to do after she is gone?
As previous comment by Free2Bme mentioned the teenage brain isnt fully developed.
So no teenagers are not 'made that way' yet until early 20's.
Please check this article out on research that is specifically about teenagers and empathy. https://www.melbournechildpsychology.com.au/blog/help-teenagers-develop-empathy/
There is reason to believe that this will not be the permanent condition of your dd's personality and relationship functioning.