What does forgiveness look like to you.....

[Liketheducks]

I'm struggling with forgiveness.   To those who don't know my story....Dad is undiagnosed, but likely overt narc.    Physically abusive to both me and my mother.  Mom also has tendencies, though like very co-dependent coping mechanisms.   I'm supposed to save her, and haven't.   
My father has a terrible, terrible childhood himself.  His mother didn't want him and repeatedly made that clear.   My mother was the pampered only daughter of an alcoholic.   She tried to save my Dad.   That the two of them didn't burn down the house still amazes me.   

Flash forward to many, many stories and water under the bridge since.   More than a year ago, I discovered my husband was having an affair.   We're really working hard.  In many ways our marriage here is better than it's ever been given our intent and skills now.   He's pushing me to forgive him.   He feels like I keep going back to the past....I do....though I think that is more a function of how one processes trauma AND my high level of childhood trauma.  And, that I made my husband out to be the one "safe" human in my existence...who ended up just human.   I recognize his intent, but find myself wondering if I've ever forgiven anyone. 
My idea of forgiving my still mentally ill, still dangerous dad....is to distance myself.   Judge him as somehow less and very sad, very pathetic, and try to focus on the reality I can control.   My idea of forgiving my mother is love you...with boundaries....very sad you're in a sad place....can't fix it for you.
In many ways, I feel like I have forgiven certain aspects of the affair....and I don't want it dominating my life any more than it needs to.   But, I'm also very familiar with trauma.   
Have you forgiven your parents?   Mine are certainly high risk with this virus.   While, I know, should they pass, I know I will have done my best with them while also taking care of myself.   My parents are telling everyone how awful and unfeeling I am....and how much I'll regret it when they past (I won't).   What does your version of forgiveness look like? 

[looloo]

Great question!  Forgiveness for me, is like yours in that it's probably different depending on the person.

I do notice now how entwined my ability to forgive myself (for repeating bad patterns, for being naive, for getting pulled in yet again, for my own crappy actions) is in the ability to forgive others. 

Also, I consider "forgiveness" to be more about being better able to let go of anger and rumination, and moving on.  For me, it's never a dialogue with anyone, where we discuss the possibility or extent of my forgiveness of them (the one time I recall actually being asked for forgiveness, I realized—too late—that the person only wanted me available for favors again).

Anyway, if I can think of them less often, if I get less viscerally reactive when a memory pops up, if I get an unexpected flash of insight into their motivations, then I consider that a good thing.  Something akin to forgiveness, anyway.

[all4peace]

This is a good question. I hold onto the concept of forgiveness with very loose fingers these days. I'm open to the possibility that I haven't fully forgiven them, and I'm compassionate with myself if that's the case. I'm also open to the possibility that I may have further forgiveness to develop, and I'm ok with that taking time.

My parents were abusive in all the ways a parent can be abusive, and I would be ok with never seeing them again. It makes me feel grief and sadness, as I would have wanted a much different story than the one I was born into. But I no longer feel white-hot rage or seething resentment. Now when I think of them I just feel sad. That may be forgiveness. But it certainly doesn't mean relationship.

For me to get from 5 years ago to now took a LOT of raging and grieving. I thought the anger and grief would never end, but they mainly have. Be gentle with yourself. It's a long and painful process. For me it also took a LOT of inner-child work, being the mother and father to myself that I needed and didn't have. Thanks for asking this important question.

[MyLifeToo]

I spent a lot of yesterday re-reading "Enough about you, let's talk About me" by Les Carter, and coincidentally the chapter on replacing bitterness with forgiveness.

He says forgiveness is not about denying your anger and pain or becoming friends again by ignoring their wrong doings, it's not about allowing them to continue as they have behaved before. As all4peace said, forgiveness means you are willing to let go of harmful forms of anger and obsessing about the person. It's about putting your priorities first by acceptance and tolerance, for your own peace of mind.

It made me realise I've been doing forgiveness all wrong. I've been doing the former, whilst becoming angrier inside and allowing covert unm to continue her behaviour. I reason that she just can't help it. But I've never really put that to the test, and I've allowed myself to be a victim.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Forgiveness to me first means accepting that what happened actually indeed did happen. That means I do not try to soothe myself by thinking things such as "it wasn't really that bad", "nobody's perfect", "everyone has issues", etc. I realize it did happen and it was bad and I was hurt.
Second, I realize my measure of "bad" and "hurt" does not have to meet anybody else's standards. Certainly I do not need the agreement or recognition from those who hurt me to validate my reality. The knowledge I hold in my head and my heart are enough validation.
Third, I give up trying to make the past seem better. I let it be what it was. It is done. I leave it in its final status.
Last, I refocus my energies on moving toward what serves me most. I do not explain to anyone (other than this forum). I listen to my body go with and what feels calm and peaceful. When I get that familiar sinking feeling about someone, I back off from them. I use my new found boundaries to protect my own well being and defend them. 
They say we forgive for ourselves not the other person and I agree with that. It does not include forgetting what happened or letting that other person hold any place in our lives.  I think you know what level of contact to allow other people to have by listening to what you gut is telling you. It should feel calm and peaceful. Not hectic, confusing, demanding, or a struggle.   
   

[Adria]

My idea of forgiving my still mentally ill, still dangerous dad....is to distance myself.   Judge him as somehow less and very sad, very pathetic, and try to focus on the reality I can control.   My idea of forgiving my mother is love you...with boundaries....very sad you're in a sad place....can't fix it for you. In many ways, I feel like I have forgiven certain aspects of the affair....and I don't want it dominating my life any more than it needs to.   But, I'm also very familiar with trauma.

I think you are very wise in the way you state you are handling your parents. I agree with you.  I don't feel that forgiveness is as easy as a minister standing at a pulpit saying nonchalantly  or in a way that condemns, "Just forgive and forget."  No, it is a process, and even more difficult if the attacks keep coming. I found I could muster up forgiveness only to be blindsided by another attack. That is very difficult.  Something that helped me move forward with forgiveness was actually praying for my parents (also hard to do), but well worth the effort because it helps soften your heart and keeps bitterness from setting in.  However, that said, don't confuse forgiveness with forgetting. We need to remember what was done to us, so we don't let it happen again in the future. Forgiveness and forgetting are two different things.

As far as your husband's affair, you can and should do your best to forgive and move forward, but it is up to him to prove sincerity over and over again until you can get there. He needs to portray to you that he understands the devastation this has caused to your trust for him and to your emotions. That is on him. If he does it right, you should be able to put it behind you and be stronger than ever.

I wish you all the best, Adria

[TwentyTwenty]

I have forgiven my FOO and moved on, for good.

I forgave them for myself, and my well being, not theirs.

They are forgiven, but we are not reconciled.

Reconciliation requires accountability and changes in behavior that created separation and no contact.

My FOO is unwilling to be held accountable, unwilling to stop harmful behavior, and instead blame me.

So, forgiveness for me wasn't an issue.

Reconciliation is the issue, and will never happen.

[GettingOOTF]

For me I’ve come to see forgiveness as moving on. I acknowledge what my upbringing did to me, I acknowledge the abuse from my BPDxH who was also a cheater. I have moved on from all of them and they are no longer in my life.

Forgiveness to me is not getting someone to see and understand my side, it’s letting them be who they are, but without me in their lives.

For me I think some things aren’t forgivable. Some things change a relationship in such away that it becomes a completely different one and it’s simply not possible to move past what happened while keeping that person in your life.

The interesting thing to me about the more accepted Western version of forgiveness is that it’s the victim of the transgression who has to essentially pay the price to have the perpetrator in their lives.

Your post shows that you are anything but awful and unfeeling. This is them abusing and manipulating you into doing what they want.

My father is also high risk. While I know that at some point he will die it’s largely been an abstract consideration. The virus makes it real and I think many of us here are struggling with that now.

Over this last year it’s really become apparent to me that I need to start being honest with myself about people and how their actions impact me. For most of my life I let other people tell me how to feel “well it’s in the past, get over it” type things. I’m working hard on not doing that anymore. 

[Starboard Song]

Have you forgiven your parents?   Mine are certainly high risk with this virus.   While, I know, should they pass, I know I will have done my best with them while also taking care of myself.   My parents are telling everyone how awful and unfeeling I am....and how much I'll regret it when they past (I won't).   What does your version of forgiveness look like?

Only the penetent man shall pass.

I feel like we describe forgiveness as a highly technical and objective thing, like paying back a car loan. Pay off the loan, and you get the title, right? Forgive me and we start hanging out again, as usual. But that is not at all what this is like. Especially, perhaps, for those who've gone NC, forgiveness may describe an emotional state we hold towards the PD but have nothing at all to say about how we engage in the future.

My in-laws are hereby forgiven. Truly, if I knew they were different people today than they were in 2015, if I knew they were unlikely to ever behave again in such a manner, I would have only a little trouble re-engaging. That "little trouble" would reflect emotional reesidue: scar tissue.

They will not be consoled by this forgiveness. Engaging with them again in any natural format requires for me that they directly address their past behavior. I need to have some acid test to prove to me and my family that this won't happen again. At the very least, my FIL would need to declare to me that we had met the minimum criteria for engagement. The last time we spoke he directly acknowledged that she was full of hate and rage.

If they ever politely engage me I will talk with them, but only to apply that acid test. To confront them, politely and dispassionately, with the truth of our breakup, and seek their concurrence about how wrong it was. It won't work. But that's no matter. It won't happen.

[_apparentlywicked]

In a way my NC is an act of forgiveness. I'm actively accepting who my dad is now, instead of trying to get him to love me. I accept who he is but that means I accept how abusive he is and how I can't control it. I'm letting it go.

I think the reason us kids of pd parents get hung up on this whole forgiveness thing is because we have been groomed from birth to tolerate our parents trashing our boundaries. If we had had the parents we deserved we would find the whole idea of leaving harmful relationships behind easier.  We wouldn't tie ourselves up in knots because it would be more clean cut. The forgiveness issue wouldn't seem so important. It wouldn't feel so powerful.

It would just be a clean case of 'if you hurt me I will not put myself near you'


❤️❤️

[Sweetbriar]

Forgiveness is huge. I feel angry when people blurt out, "oh just forgive and forget, everyone makes mistakes." And I cringe when people use dogma to shame a person if they do not resume a relationship with someone who hurts them by telling them to forgive the person or else they will only hurt themselves... especially if they are family. I don't believe that.

Mistakes have levels. Let's say someone forgets your birthday and compare that to someone attacking you. I can forgive the first easily and I might even forgive the second. But how I interact after each mistake will fit the crime. I will hang out with the birthday forgetter, but forever be afraid of the attacker. (Fear has a good purpose.)

My roommate had a cat one time that lost it occasionally and one day it bit me so hard, blood ran down my hand. I forgave the cat, but I never went near that cat again. I had to protect myself.

I also think there is something in regards to my parents that has been missing in terms of my emotional ability to forgive them - although I say I do forgive them. I still don't feel it inside of me. Part of the reason probably is that neither of them has ever come to me and said, "I'm very sorry for how we behaved when you were a child." There are people who were raging alcoholics who got sober and went to their children and apologized and remained sober. I could forgive that. I'd do cartwheels if my parents did that. I'd embrace them and return to a relationship with them. But they NEVER EVER say sorry. And I doubt they ever will.

It is all on me to forgive them even when there is absolutely no effort by them to begin a healthy, happy relationship. They want things to remain as they have always been. We have to work around them and their behaviour. They have no remorse or maybe it is pride? They can't admit they make mistakes.

I am muddled about all of this.

I just know that the way my parents behaved would never have went "down" in the outside world. Imagine going to work and smacking someone in the head because you got mad at them! My parents screaming, violent behaviour could only remain behind closed doors otherwise regular people would have seen how horrible they were and still can be, and would rightfully back away.

I say I forgive them, but I don't feel it. I don't feel relieved. I don't feel lighter. I still have my issues from the past to heal. My sister says she forgives my parents and that means for her that she allows them to mistreat her and each other around her. She says that is because she takes parental duty very serious. This is where I don't agree with her and now we are at odds and the rest of the family look on her with respect and me with judgement.

I can't be around my parents bc they are like that cat that bit me. I feel incredibly anxious around them. I don't know when they might strike again. I forgive them because I understand taht they had hard childhoods too but how do I keep myself safe? Isn't there a duty to myself after surviving a hard childhood? I mean, my God, some people end up on the streets bc they are so damaged after an abusive childhood. This pain is real.

Much of the mainstream society calls duty to self, selfish. I emphatically don't agree with this. I think we are finally, all of us, holding abusers accountable for their behaviour. Any of us may lose people if we treat them badly. This is a reasonable and natural consequence for continued bad behaviour.

Pheww... I needed to get that out. Thank you.

[Thru the Rain]

I think we get hung up on forgiveness vs restoration. I may forgive someone who cuts off my foot, but it won't make my foot grow back. Putting that in context of relationships, I may forgive harmful behavior, but it doesn't mean we will return to the trust that allowed my disordered parent to hurt me to begin with.

Another thought on forgiveness. I went through a really difficult period where a (now former) friend had really hurt me and my husband. I was spending so much of my time mulling and ruminating about how the friendship ended. I was very, very angry, but had no place to put that anger, and I was actively seeking a way to put it all down.

I found this suggestion on Al-Anon and it worked for me. Pray for the person you want to forgive. Sincerely pray that they are blessed with whatever it is they really want and need. So every time I thought about my former friend, I used a short prayer to interrupt the painful memories. It was something like "Please bless [name] with the things she seems to be looking for". I have no idea what she really wanted, but God knows.

And if you don't believe in prayer, I think a sincere wish will work as well.

And I'm getting angry all over again just bringing this former friend to mind, and I'm finding myself saying my prayer again. And it's bringing ME peace.

Also - I'm not reconciled with this person. When I encounter her, I'm willing to say Hello and then I physically move away from her. But again I feel peace.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

Much wisdom expressed in this thread.

"Forgive and forget" is the favorite war cry of Flying Monkeys.

When I hear those three words come out of someone's mouth their credibility diminishes considerably.

There are advantages to forgetting because it enables one not to churn constantly over past wrongs in one's mind. However, the remembering is healthy insofar as it helps us to develop the habits that keep us from getting screwed over again by others. When we've developed healthy habits of NC/LC with PDs it is great to forget, at least until behavior pops up that brings back the remembering which enables us to protect ourselves.

I've largely quit thinking about forgiveness and instead focus on how I change my behavior. I've also largely quit thinking about apologies and instead focus on how other people change their behavior.

[Whitesheep45]

Great topic
I used to see forgiveness as a very concrete thing... If I forgive its 100 %..
My experience is its incremental and ebbs and flows..
At this point in my life I hold the highest percentage of forgiveness to my m. This is due to the years of trauma therapy, healing deep wounds (not completely but significantly) and having greater realisation that she came from trauma and is mentally unwell.
I see that she doesn't have capacity or control over how she was or how she is..
She hasn't had any kind of healing help.
The age old saying of I forgive but don't forget is prevalent for me.. I could never forget and I can't see how someone can 100 % forgive being v mistreated.
Sometimes I grieve and that brings an increase in  not forgiving...
Things move with time but it seems important that forgiveness isn't masking denial of one's own true feelings, wounds are wounds and need nurturing and healing. A sticking plaster will eventually lose its grip.

[PeanutButter]

I recently realized forgiveness is not a one time occurrence. Its not an accomplishment that once it happens then its done. It is continuous. It is an attitude that you make a daily practice. It is a choice of using acceptance and compassion to heal resentment imo.
I am in the very early stage concerning my abusers.