Ex makes me the bad guy

[eyesopen]

I'm new to coparenting - exW moved out at beginning of March, so I'm just starting to see how she's going to handle 50/50 custody of our 6yo daughter.  I'm sure many of you are veterans at this and have figured out ways to minimize (but not eliminate) conflict and collateral damage.

Three times since she moved out last month, exw has asked me for a PIN or password of mine (Netflix, Disney+, the parent account on DD's tablet).  It's all been in the context of "This is for DD.  Since you won't give me your password, I'll just tell her that her Dad won't let her watch Netflix/Disney/use-her-tablet."

So I'm framed as being the controlling parent that won't let his 6yo do stuff at her mom's place that she's allowed to do at mine.  But what I can't explain to a 6yo is that exW is putting me in a double-bind, either I say no and I'm the mean parent or I give away my passwords and exW can do whatever she wants with my online accounts.

I think the real answer is that her mom needs to take full responsibility for DD's needs when it's her parenting time and leave me out of it.  DD want's to watch Netflix/Disney+?  Mom needs to pay for her own subscriptions (or in reality, she's just stealing by using her boyfriend's account).

But with the tablet?  I'm thinking of just buying a second one so DD can have one at each home.  Is that what you all do, phones/tablets/etc just stay with one parent and don't get taken back and forth by the child?  Are there other options I'm not seeing?

[sevenyears]

I share your pain. My uocpd xh does this a lot. It's soooo infuriating, and I worry that his ultimate goal is to alienate the kids from me (his mom did this to him and for 11 years, he went no contact with his father, so there's a model for him.) I, like everyone else, hope that as my DD8 and DS4.5 grow up, they will begin to see through his BS. I can't really give much advice. IMO I try to ask questions, rather than counter him directly. For example, about a year ago, xh claimed the children didn't have anything to eat when they returned home from a vacation because I had turned off the freezer while they were away. He angrily shouted for a while to/in front of them that I'm a sick liar. That night, when we had our nightly video call, the kids were so upset, telling me that they had nothing to eat and that I was a liar and all sorts of things. I asked them how I could do something like that since I love them so much? And, whether they had had dinner. They had, so I asked them what they had eaten. Spaghetti. The damage was done. DD8 still calls me a liar sometimes (she has her own problems and expresses them through anger and I'm often on the receiving end). Whenever she does, I ask her questions. And, we work a lot on taking responsibility for our actions and on problem solving so the kids see there is more than one way of solving a problem. I think DD8 on some level gets it, but she's prone to manipulation and as the SG at his house, often tries to win his approval. DS is the GC and doesn't get it. Sigh. Hopefully, one day he will. In our relationship, I was the one who moved out. I quickly set up all new accounts with my own passwords and electronics stay at my place. I'm trying to hold off on a cell phone for her as long as possible - that will create a whole new can of worms with PD xh.

I hope your daughter will see through the BS and control. I would say if xw wants DD to have a tablet and such at her place, she should buy it and set up her own accounts. 

[Associate of Daniel]

I hate to say it but going by my experience, you are only at the beginning of the pd and technology thing.  It's a complete minefield and one that (my) pds use very successfully against the healthy parent.

You sound to be far more tech savvy than me so I won't advise you on that front.

But I will say, separate all types of accounts - Netflix, phones, insurances, mortgage, loans etc. - asap.

Try to set your home up as though your exW was not in the picture. So, have all of the "necessary" devices at your place and keep them there.

My pds (uNPD exH and his uNPD wife) still try to make me the bad guy (over everything) after nearly 8 years.  They buy ds13 the devices without any notice to me and say that unless I agree to pay for replacement/repair if they get damaged at my place, he can't take them to my place. They also tell me where to keep the devices if they come to my place etc. I keep them in my room overnight and they hate that.

I must say, now that ds is older and I'm more Out of the FOG, it's easier to say no.  I reason it as if the device was an essential item and it broke at my place then I'd pay at least half.

Ipads, ipods, apple watches, netflix etc are not essential items in my book.

Then the pds lock me out of the devices anyway and tell ds not to tell me the passwords etc....

So, anyway.  My advice is to set very strong boundries around technology etc asap.

There are many, many times, particularly when the children are young, that you will have to just accept that you're being made out to be the mean parent. Don't try to explain or defend yourself to your child. A simple statement such as "Mummy can set up her own Netflix account and if she doesn't want to, that's ok." may have to suffice.

If you have Netflix etc at your house, at least your child has what she wants at one of the houses.

Can you remove your ex wife from the Netflix account? Or maybe set up your own and remove your name and stop paying for the one you currently have?

In short, I suggest separating all accounts asap and have devices at your place that stay there. Don't buy devices for your daughter to keep at her mum's house. That's up to your ex wife. And don't try to keep up with whatever your ex wife does end up purchasing.  You don't have to have everything the same for your daughter at your place.  Have only what you're comfortable with and what you can afford.

And let's face it, devices, Netflix etc are not necessary to the life of a child, (imo).

In my experience, there is no such thing as co parenting with pds.  Parallell parenting is the easier approach.

AOD

[Penny Lane]

Hi there, I'm sorry to say you're at the very beginning of this behavior. But I'm glad to say that you have your ... eyes open ... about it all.

Yes, your ex needs to pay for any accounts she wants to have at her house. And you are correct that the tablet shouldn't be going back and forth - if you want one at your house, keep one at your house. (I agree with the others that you shouldn't pay for a new one for your ex's house. However, my guess is that the current tablet is one that you bought when you were together, I would say to scrub your info from it, tell your ex the password and tell her she can keep it, then get a new one for your house. You get to look magnanimous - you're giving her a valuable marital asset - and you don't have to deal with your daughter taking it back and forth anymore. If I'm wrong and you purchased the tablet with your post-separation money, then just keep the tablet at your house). You are especially right to note that you can minimize, but not eliminate, this sort of interaction.

Here is the big picture right now: Once you separated, your now-ex started to lose a lot of her avenues for manipulating you to do stuff. She's looking for new ones. DH's ex wife literally told him that the power she has over him is the kids (the power he has over her is money, in case you were wondering what she cares about more than the kids). Your ex is testing you now to see both if appeals to "DD needs this" will get you to give her stuff ($$$) and whether trying to make your daughter mad at you will do the same.

You are in a good spot now, where you can show her that it does NOT have power over you, as upsetting as it is to hear these things. The more you give in to stuff like this, the more she's going to pull this card in the future. If she thinks that she won't get what she wants - what she wants is your money via account passwords and your attention via getting upset - then she'll use this less in the future. Not none, but less. So the best thing you can do is NOT give into it.

So, what do you do?

With your daughter: Again, you're at a really great point to start addressing this. You're likely going to have to address this with her many many times in a variety of different ways as she gets older. And every time you can be calming but forthright, and deescalate the fight, that's one step toward making your DD more resilient to her mom's manipulation. Right now she is hurting and confused and looking to make sense of the divorce. And especially she's looking to make sense of it in a way that paints neither parent in a bad light. This is good, because there is a very reasonable, age-appropriate explanation for the decision you're making!

At our house, when the kids were that age, it might go something like this: "I'm sorry sweetie, I know this is a tough time and this can be very confusing. It used to be that all of the things I owned were also all of the things you owned and all of the things that your mom owned. But now that your mom and I live in different houses, there are different categories. In our house, there are things I own (and you can give some examples, like your clothes). There are some things that are yours (give examples of toys that you wouldn't mind too much if she takes to her mom's house, like things that don't hold particular sentimental value or arent' expensive). Then there are things that are communal, which are things that belong to both of us and we both use them in this house (furniture, Netflix passwords, etc). Even though those things partially belong to you, they also partially belong to me. And those things, along with the things I own, stay at this house. So you live at both houses, but not all the stuff from this house goes to your mom's house." Bonus points if you can throw in a vice versa - like name an example of something that you know her mom is really possessive of that she would never allow to come to your house. So like: "And it's the same vice versa! I wouldn't expect your mom to send her (expensive item) over here with you." And you could maybe conclude with an explanation of how Netflix works: "The reason account passwords need to stay in one house is because two people can't watch a show at once, so if I give this password to your mom I can't watch a movie over here. But she can always sign up for her own account, like I did! Or, I'm sure there's other fun stuff you could do if you can't watch Netflix over there." Extra extra bonus points if you can get her to brainstorm alternative activities. This gets her critical thinking going and out of the black-and-white blaming mode of her mother.

It might not go over well in the short term, but I promise, if you say this in a kind and loving way, and you approach each issue with this attitude, it will make things better for you. Also, note that you ONLY say this if DD brings it up to you. If she doesn't, then don't address it. Let her take the lead on conversations about differences between the two households or disagreements that she's witnessed between her parents.

Even if your ex weren't behaving this way, you would still probably have to have a lot of explanatory conversations with your daughter like this at first, while everyone is figuring out the divorce. But since your ex is like this, you're going to have to keep having these conversations. Giving her the truth in an age appropriate way, just laying out the facts without blaming her mother at all, will be an incredibly useful skill to have. She will remember this, and in the back of her mind she will be comparing what her mom says vs what she sees, and what her dad says vs what she sees. And as her brain develops, if everything goes right, she will start realizing that what you say makes sense and what her mom says does not. But this is the key - DO NOT BADMOUTH HER MOM. Her brain will shut off and she will go into defensive mode. You will lose the ability to reach her. The question will become "is mom right or is dad right" (and mom is probably a very convincing liar) rather than "what is the truth."

With your ex: I assume the divorce isn't finalized yet. If so, she is giving you a GIFT. She is telling you that she's going to try to alienate you against your daughter. That looks really bad. Even if you're not in court, it looks really bad. I hope you are conducting every conversation in writing. If you're not, start. In every interaction, be reasonable, be BIFF, don't JADE, tell her what you're going to do rather than asking her to do anything.

"You can't have the passwords to my Netflix account because we are separated and going forward we won't share online accounts. If there's a specific account that you think is necessary for DD's development/education and you want to split costs, let me know and we can discuss the logistics of how that might work.*  I'm sorry to hear that you're planning to disparage me to DD. I hope you decide not to do that, but either way, I will continue to speak about you with respect and continue to try to not put DD in the middle of our disagreements, because I think that's the right thing to do and that's what's best for DD."

* DH only says stuff like this because he knows she doesn't want to pay for it, she just wants a free Netflix account. But, it makes it look like you're trying to solve problems. If you think she actually would agree to pay you for half of a Netflix account for your daughter, then skip that line. And definitely ONLY commit to being willing to discuss it if she wants to, don't commit to actually doing this.

So by the end of that email, her statement makes her look like a potentially alienating parent who's putting her daughter in the middle of disputes. And YOU look like someone who's equipped to be the bigger person. She will not like this interaction. Her lawyer will not like this interaction. My guess is that you wouldn't hear about any more of it after that, at least if she's like DH's ex wife.

Unfortunately she will try to escalate and do this more times. Hold firm on your boundaries. Don't give her ANY money that's not required by a court order. Make her say this kind of terrible stuff in writing. Be prepared to deescalate and reassure your daughter, over and over, as your ex tries to alienate her. But if you do all these things you will be in a really good position, both with your ex and more importantly with your daughter.

You're in for a tough road. But every time you hold firm to your boundaries, it's a step on the path toward minimizing conflict. After years, the communication between DH and BM has greatly lessened. And she got burned a couple times, really badly, trying to manipulate the kids against him. After a frank but kind (toward her) conversation with us, they really saw what their mom was doing and it badly affected her relationship with the kids. But the key was years and years of listening to the kids, explaining the truth in a way they could understand and never badmouthing their mom to them.

Sending you virtual strength. You can do this!

[eyesopen]

Thank you for the especially detailed replies.  The Netflix/Disney+ requests came right after exw moved out and I had no problem shutting that down.  Exw was clearly pissed, but tried to make it seem like it was no big deal to her "whatever, I just got a login from someone else."  At least she's no longer expecting that of me, so that was the easy one.

With everything else that was jointly owned, we've separated as much as possible already.  Banking, credit, utilities, cell phones, etc.  The main things left to separate are the house, cars, and retirement accounts.  We've agreed on how they'll be split, but I'm waiting for the final divorce order in case exw decides to change the agreement at the last minute.  The mandatory waiting period before the final order runs out in mid-May, but with courts and almost everything else closed right now for coronavirus, I don't know if the date might get pushed.

With the tablet, it was a joint purchase, but she left the tablet at the house with me.  When DD went to her mom's this week, the tablet stayed with me until mid-week came the request that DD could pick up her tablet.  I knew this would happen, which is why I didn't let DD take it initially.  Exw is accusing me of being controlling by locking down the parent account on the tablet with my own PIN, but that's not my intention at all.

Since I'm not comfortable with sharing any type of PIN or login with exw, I think I'm just going to buy a new tablet for DD that can stay at the house with me.  I'll clear all my data from the old tablet and have it stay at exw's place, with her having full control over it.  Hopefully exw, but more importantly DD, will see that I'm trying to make things work by solving problems,.  And for my own sake, solving them in a way that enforces separation boundaries and eliminates any levers for manipulation.

Thank you Penny Lane for the example conversations to have with DD.  Talking to DD about a situation with her mom, without badmouthing her mom, is tough when I have anger and resentment bubbling underneath.  So far, I think I've done well at talking about things in a way that gets DD to think critically for herself rather than me telling her what to think.  But I don't know, it can be a fine line to walk and I'm sure I need a lot more practice to get more consistent with it.  And for better or worse, exw will probably give me plenty of opportunities for practice.

[Penny Lane]

Talking to DD about a situation with her mom, without badmouthing her mom, is tough when I have anger and resentment bubbling underneath.  So far, I think I've done well at talking about things in a way that gets DD to think critically for herself rather than me telling her what to think.  But I don't know, it can be a fine line to walk and I'm sure I need a lot more practice to get more consistent with it.  And for better or worse, exw will probably give me plenty of opportunities for practice.

I won't lie! It's very hard. DH has been apart from his ex for years and is remarried (obviously) andyet  he still struggles with it sometimes. I even struggle sometimes, and I don't have the baggage of having gone through a divorce with her! My stepkids' mom is awful to them, awful to my husband and often awful to me. It's not easy to suck it up every time and say nice or at least neutral things about her. So I don't want it to seem like this is easy over here or make you feel disheartened if you don't get it right one time. It's the pattern that matters. If one day you mess it up, that's OK because there will be three other days where you got it right.

It sucks, but you're definitely not alone in this struggle.

[Associate of Daniel]

This thread has brought back so many memories of the times when I was manipulated by uNPD exH and his uNPD wife to do something because I'd look bad to ds. And it still happens today.

Just one:  when ds was about 8 (He's now 13) they took him on an overseas holiday.

I received an email while they were there saying that ds wanted to buy me a souvenir and to put money in their bank account to cover the cost. Otherwise they wouldn't let him buy it....

I didn't want a souvenir of their fancy shmancy trip.  And I don't know anyone else who goes overseas and demands money from others to buy them souvenirs.

Words still fail me on that one.

Oh, and I was made to pay for the text  messages he sent to me while they were there.

AOD

[eyesopen]

Update - I went forward with getting a second tablet so DD can have one at each of her homes.  But my attempt to solve the problem by having separate tablets was interpreted by exw as trying to be controlling.  She refused to accept DD's tablet even though I had deleted/wiped everything and it was like new.  Oh well, I tried.  It's not my problem so I'll let it go.  Now I have an extra tablet that I can use while travelling for work - WIN!

Now she's again trying to make me look bad to DD with a new situation.  I got a FaceTime call from DD and she asked me if she can go on vacation with exw, ex's new boyfriend and his kids.  I felt pressured and put on the spot, like exw wanted to put me in a position where if I say anything other than yes, I'd be the reason DD can't go on vacation.  I told DD, "maybe, but I need to hear more details from your mom first."

But that's not the way this is supposed to work.  This kind of request should be coming from exw first, before she tells DD anything about it.  And it's not a permission thing - exw can take vacations with DD - it's simply a schedule thing.  As in, let's look at the calendar and if you want to make a request to swap days, let me know.  Then after we work out the details, share it with DD.  But no, that's too simple, logical, unemotional.... DD has to be put in the middle to force her to view her parents as good/bad or right/wrong.

If I say anything to exw along the lines of "can we do it this way?" or "this is what the parenting plan says we're supposed to do," exw will accuse me of being controlling.  It doesn't matter that it's in the plan she signed and I'm not actually telling her to do anything, her go to phrase is "don't tell me what to do, I can do what I want."  It makes any type of communication or negotiation about anything extremely difficult because whatever I say she will, out of principle, reject anything I say and she'll decide on her own way to do it.  And it's even better (for her) if she can use DD to put me in a double bind where I'm the bad guy.

I don't want to play these games.  In this case, I didn't commit to an answer and told DD that her mom and I needed to work it out.  I'm going to try to do that whenever DD is put into conversations she should be in.  That's unfortunately happening every week she's with her mom.

[Penny Lane]

Update - I went forward with getting a second tablet so DD can have one at each of her homes.  But my attempt to solve the problem by having separate tablets was interpreted by exw as trying to be controlling.  She refused to accept DD's tablet even though I had deleted/wiped everything and it was like new.  Oh well, I tried.  It's not my problem so I'll let it go.  Now I have an extra tablet that I can use while travelling for work - WIN!

This is great. She's going to regret that. I wouldn't be surprised if she asks for the tablet back at some point. (Don't give it to her - she said no, it's yours now). And if your daughter asks why she can't have it at mom's house you can honestly say that you offered it and mom said no but mom can always buy a tablet for her if she needs it.

Now she's again trying to make me look bad to DD with a new situation.  I got a FaceTime call from DD and she asked me if she can go on vacation with exw, ex's new boyfriend and his kids.  I felt pressured and put on the spot, like exw wanted to put me in a position where if I say anything other than yes, I'd be the reason DD can't go on vacation.  I told DD, "maybe, but I need to hear more details from your mom first."

Wow, it really is like there's a playbook.

DH's ex does this EXACT thing. First - try to get something from you by putting kid in the middle. Then, assuming she doesn't get it - escalate by putting the kid in the middle EVEN MORE and try to make you look like the bad guy. Exactly the same, down to doing it via phone call.

You did the right thing. If you had said yes, your ex probably would have treated that as carte blanche to take DD on a trip during your parenting time.

I would offer, for the future, a "level up" so to speak. Say everything you said. Except preface it with a statement that sounds like a yes, in an enthusiastic tone.

"Wow, that sounds really fun! Your mom and I will just have to work out the details."

That makes it a lot harder for your ex to say that the trip is cancelled because you wouldn't let her go.

If I say anything to exw along the lines of "can we do it this way?" or "this is what the parenting plan says we're supposed to do," exw will accuse me of being controlling.  It doesn't matter that it's in the plan she signed and I'm not actually telling her to do anything, her go to phrase is "don't tell me what to do, I can do what I want."  It makes any type of communication or negotiation about anything extremely difficult because whatever I say she will, out of principle, reject anything I say and she'll decide on her own way to do it.  And it's even better (for her) if she can use DD to put me in a double bind where I'm the bad guy.

Yes, we've seen that too. DH tried to work with her for years. I have spend countless hours trying to brainstorm solutions that work for everyone (her and us and the kids). We finally decided that it's pointless. And he eventually became a very severe stickler for the order. No trades, no deviations of any kind, we obey the letter of the court order and he files in court if she doesn't. And at the same time if the court order doesn't restrict it, he doesn't even try to argue with her about it. If it's not in the order he lets it go.

You might be able to work with her better, I don't know. But if you're not - well I would say it's not a failure to decide that you're not going to keep beating your head against the wall and trying to find compromises with someone who simply won't compromise.

[NumbLotus]

"Wow, that sounds really fun! Your mom and I will just have to work out the details."

Great idea. If I can offer a little tweak:

"Wow, that sounds really fun! Your mom will need to talk to me to work out the details.

Putting the onus clearly on mom. Also I would fear the iriginal response would be communicated by child to mom as "Dad said yes."

But it's a grand idea to have a positive tone no matter the eventual outcome, because that will figure into the interpretation of whatever winds up happening.