"Why are you ill? "

[Ilovedogs]

I am sadly having to see my uBPD/NPD mother every day currently due to the virus, as she is one of my carers. I am getting pretty run down. Usually I only see her a few days each week so I get recovery time and can stay above water.

I feel I'm drowning a bit the last few days. I'm not able to deflect her abuse and am getting sucked in. The abuse is very very covert, no name calling or physical abuse of ANY sort, just a slow drip drip drip which I find very hard to see at times.

One thing I am struggling to see the function of is the following.

ME. I have a headache today.
M. Do you know why?
ME. I'm not sure, I think it may be eyestrain.
M. Why, were you doing a lot of knitting yesterday?
ME. No
M. Do you know what has caused the eyestrain then?
ME. No I'm not sure, maybe too much on my phone.
M. Ah that's probably it.

I come away from this conversation feeling bruised and confused almost every time. It is the same conversation every time I'm a bit ill. The reason I am telling her I am ill is always practical, I am never looking for sympathy. Nevertheless I come out bruised in some way.

ME. I've got a bit of a stomach ache (so can't walk fast)
M. What's caused that?
ME. I'm not sure, it may be the bread I ate yesterday.
M. Ah, you always say bread gives you a stomach ache.

Argh! What is upsetting me here? I'm just not quite able to see it. If I know what is causing me to get distressed I can do something about it, but currently I'm struggling to see what the issue is with these illness conversations. Every single one starts with me saying I am ill, followed by her asking me why. This is a trap, I sense in my body, but what is the trap and how to avoid it?

Just to add, I have Aspergers which complicates the picture a little bit.

Thank you anyone who can help me decypher the issue here.

[D.Dan]

My uPDmom usually does this to me. I'm almost 40 and in the last few years I figured out why this type of questioning bothered me.

It's because my uPDmom was always implying I was faking it. Like I wasn't telling the truth about how I'm feeling and was trying to get me to admit it instead of helping me the way I needed. I remember my uPDmom doing this since I was 5 years old, the earliest memory I have of being sick.

Truthfully, I don't know for sure if this is what your uPDm is doing, but if you feel like you're trying to prove to her that you're really sick every time this happens, then this might be why it's so upsetting.

Having someone who is trying not to help you when you need more help than normal, is also very upsetting too.

The best solution I found was to get help from other people. Like... if they know that I'm sick or injured. Also, I found that talking to other people, like my disability services worker or my doctor, I can get more help when I need it because they want to help me.

Hopefully this helps and wasn't too confusing 

[Andeza]

Logically, when someone asks why we're feeling ill, it feels like a question we should answer, doesn't it? As though they are concerned for our well being.

However, I encourage you to disengage from the conversation once she asks why. I feel, from reading your examples, that she may also be turning this around as though to say it's your own fault you aren't feeling well. Or if you're able to understand what made you ill why didn't you not do that thing in the first place. It feels like a subtle dig The kind of subtle dig that would easily drive anyone on the spectrum batty.

[NumbLotus]

This is just my take.

1) I also wondered if fhere was an implication that the illness was your fault. She seems satisfied when you guess the illness may have had to do with something you did or ate.

2) It also strikes me as a way to respond without responding. Instead of just full-on ignoring you or similar, she asks this question, you answer, and then it's "resolved" and she can move on. Except it's not, because figuring out what caused the illness - or establishing your "fault" in the matter (I put "fault" in quotations because it's not actually your fault) - is not a resolution. But she has successully made it appear like she responded appropriately and left you confused.

Asking what may have caused an illness can be PART of an appropriate response, but only as part of caring for you. "Oh no, you have a stomachache? Do you think you ate something bad? Would Pepto Bismol help, you think? I wonder if you have gluten intolerance, do you want me to help you look into that? Do you want to go home?" But not "Well that solves it" and moving right along with no sympathy or care.

[Ilovedogs]

My uPDmom usually does this to me. I'm almost 40 and in the last few years I figured out why this type of questioning bothered me.

It's because my uPDmom was always implying I was faking it. Like I wasn't telling the truth about how I'm feeling and was trying to get me to admit it instead of helping me the way I needed. I remember my uPDmom doing this since I was 5 years old, the earliest memory I have of being sick.

Truthfully, I don't know for sure if this is what your uPDm is doing, but if you feel like you're trying to prove to her that you're really sick every time this happens, then this might be why it's so upsetting.

Having someone who is trying not to help you when you need more help than normal, is also very upsetting too.

The best solution I found was to get help from other people. Like... if they know that I'm sick or injured. Also, I found that talking to other people, like my disability services worker or my doctor, I can get more help when I need it because they want to help me.

Hopefully this helps and wasn't too confusing 

Thank you, I think this is definitely what my uNPD father and brother used to do, it is as if you can never be ill enough for them, must be faking it or in some way over egging the pudding. I think this was because my uNPD father actually does fake or over egg his illnesses. Perhaps its also because he did not like anyone else to be ill except for himself, or he needed to be more ill than you. My mother isn't doing this I feel but I really know what you talk about, I've definitely seen that too.

[Ilovedogs]

Logically, when someone asks why we're feeling ill, it feels like a question we should answer, doesn't it? As though they are concerned for our well being.

However, I encourage you to disengage from the conversation once she asks why. I feel, from reading your examples, that she may also be turning this around as though to say it's your own fault you aren't feeling well. Or if you're able to understand what made you ill why didn't you not do that thing in the first place. It feels like a subtle dig The kind of subtle dig that would easily drive anyone on the spectrum batty.

Yes I think this is spot on. I think she is somehow making me to blame for my illness, yes, that is how it feels, thank you. I come away hurt and ashamed, when I'm bothered by it. I try, if I can stay above water, to simply say I don't know why I am ill which is often true. However when I'm tired or stressed my logic comes straight in and I try to work it out before I realise what's going on.

It is this sort of tiny tiny subtle covert dig dig dig that I find so hard to name as abuse because I have not been able to detect what is happening, only that it is happening. In therapy it is important I can name the stuff she does so I can actually get anywhere.

Thank you

[Ilovedogs]

This is just my take.

1) I also wondered if fhere was an implication that the illness was your fault. She seems satisfied when you guess the illness may have had to do with something you did or ate.

2) It also strikes me as a way to respond without responding. Instead of just full-on ignoring you or similar, she asks this question, you answer, and then it's "resolved" and she can move on. Except it's not, because figuring out what caused the illness - or establishing your "fault" in the matter (I put "fault" in quotations because it's not actually your fault) - is not a resolution. But she has successully made it appear like she responded appropriately and left you confused.

Asking what may have caused an illness can be PART of an appropriate response, but only as part of caring for you. "Oh no, you have a stomachache? Do you think you ate something bad? Would Pepto Bismol help, you think? I wonder if you have gluten intolerance, do you want me to help you look into that? Do you want to go home?" But not "Well that solves it" and moving right along with no sympathy or care.

Thank you NumbLotus, I really agree with you, I think it is primarily 1. but 2. is also at play, as it usually is in conversations with her. I really am grateful for your help with this, I can see it clearly now, I think I am being blamed subtly for the illness whatever it is. I think in some way it always feels like my being ill at all requires some kind of punishment from her, she thinks, and maybe this is her way of doing it, she just cannot tolerate my saying anything about my self I think, it just feels intolerable for her.

Thank you

[Maxtrem]

For my part, my uBPDM likes to imply that it is not her fault that I am sick, maybe your mother is trying to do the same thing. I have already helped my mother with a house moving which significantly aggravated my shoulder pain. When I told her, she said no, it probably happened when I was F... my girlfriend! That's a pretty awkward line of reasoning!!

[Call Me Cordelia]

My pdparents are weird with my illnesses too. I'm pretty sure there was some Munchausen by proxy going on in my teen years. My illness was massive supply and playing the heroic mother and getting tons of sympathy from others. But when I was an adult and asking for what really would have been a very normal level of support from parents living close by, forget it.

It was my own choices that led to this illness (having a baby!!!). Therefore I made my bed and could lie in it. If it's not  their fault it's not their responsibility in their mind. My mother did tell me I was trying to push all my problems, from my illness to my marriage troubles (????!!!?) to my difficulties disciplining my children (?????) and make them her problem instead. It was time to grow up and manage my own life. Ok (And holy projection, Batman!)

The truth was there wasn't enough supply in doing what would have been considered really very minimal assistance by the imaginary audience. If you have some boundaries (and at that point I did), the reward from enmeshment isn't available. And to the PD it's usually all or nothing. There would have been no Oscar for spending a Sunday afternoon taking her grandkids to the park so an exhausted mother could rest. I had already said they couldn't spend the whole day. I was being punished. It wasn't worth her time to do what was actually good for me.

PDs are often very transactional. Helping out someone who's sick just out of the goodness of their heart just doesn't fit their paradigm. Or if you're mentioning any kind of illness or need, You must be fishing for help. That's what they do, after all. And they resent that.

[sandpiper]

Yep. I think it's a narcissist thing. It is really draining to have to justify why you aren't feeling well, and a lot of the time it's simply impossible to know why.
There is a huge difference between this
Scenario 1
'I don't feel well.'
'Why? What have you done to cause this?' (Implication that you have only yourself to blame & the logic being that they shouldn't be expected to help, support or comfort you)
Scenario 2
'I don't feel well.'
'That's no good bub. Can I get you anything to help with that?'
(Empathy, validation, support, caring - none of which are offered in scenario 1)
I think what I hated about the 'I don't feel great' scenarios was the overwhelming sensation that I had to justify my position and then I had only myself to blame and I was left feeling like I was an inconvenience taking up valuable space.
It took me decades to understand that narcissist psychopathology of making sure they punished you for having needs and feelings and a longing to be supported and loved.
It's really hard to step away from wishing they could be different.
One of the best things a therapist ever advised me was 'Learn to care less about the people who don't care about you.' That's not malice or revenge, it's more along the lines of the AA philosophy of Detach with Love.
I.e. recognising that they simply don't have it in them to have healthy reciprocal relationships, because on some level they're always going to operate on the one up one down model of 'I'm the one that matters here and your needs aren't important and are downright inconvenient if they compete with mine.'
It is draining and dispiriting dealing with this. One of my Dad's cousins was Aspy & I remember looking at him and the confusion he experienced in dealing with uBPDad...I suspect Dad got much worse with age. I know my sister has altered dramatically and that has been so confusing for me. I often think about Dad's cousin and how sweet and good intentioned he was and I think gee, if it was hard for me to read their behaviour, our cousin must have felt so lost dealign with that. Big hugs to you. I used to work with ASD kids. Please be assured that us non ASDs are totally boggled by PD FOO most of the time, too.
FWIW, and I wish I'd kept it, in my early days at these support forums there was a guy who was off the charts mathematically brilliant and his ASD meant he really struggled with his mother. He wound up writing this hilarious description where he translated all of her behaviours into binary code. I didn't understand the half of it but OMG we were all in stitches. So clever, the way he found a means to cope. 

[AD]

For what it's worth, my reading was similar to that mentioned by others: that this (1) may be a way to blame you for not feeling well, and/or (2) it's some way of responding/discussing that is very factual and does not involve empathy.

If you told me that this person were not a Narc, I would say that maybe it was (2), and that best case scenario, they just never learned how to interact well with others/show empathy.

Not so long ago, when I was quite il (though luckily just a short term thing)l, I tried to get some emotional support from my enabling parent. They responded with "what do you want me to do about it?" It struck me as....just so cold. What does it take to just show some empathy for your own child?

[NumbLotus]

Wow. The best thing I can assume is that you didn't read the post. That is a very destructive response to the stated problem.

[nanotech]

Sandiper I love the whole 'detach with love' concept.
I think it has saved my sanity!
I've been able to place necessary boundaries using this.
OP yes they will make you feel responsible for being ill. Sometimes too when you are clearly sick, they act as if they don't believe you. I think this is because PDs use illness as a stage prop themselves so they assume that others will.
The other part of it relates to their need for the attention to be on them.
When my kids are sick ( and they are adults now) I only worry about them. I don't go into competition with them like my unpdsis and UNPD dad do with me.
It's horrible.

[p123]

Oh thats Dad so much. I know how annoying it is. Two stories (sorry for those who've seen this before) which shows how Dad think its all "his" business if I'm ill.

1. We were away for the weekend at a cricket match. Not packed but, say 100 people in earshot. I had a bit of an upset stomach - not too much but a little. I think I went to the bathroom say 3 times in an hour or something. Dad watches like a HAWK. So he pipes up (in the crowd mind) "so are you ok? you've been to the bathroom 3 times". I shoot him a look and whisper "yes fine". He won't let it go  "are you sure?". Really loud. Dad is hard of hearing so he can't have a quiet conversation. I shoot him another look. Of course, a lot of people can hear this conversation, and a few are looking over. Hes STILL going.

Afterwards we argued. I said he needs to listen when I say "I'm fine" to leave it go. Especially not to discuss when lots of people are listening in - its not appropriate. Nope his answer "well I was only concerned". Now I don't take him away - he needs to know EXACTLY what I'm doing, eating etc 24/7. I just can't cope with the scrutiny all the time.

2. I had a nasty chest infection. Had been to work but had to take time off. I was rough but, obviously not dying if you know what I mean. I'd lost my voice and could hardly speak - it was getting hard to phone Dad with a daily update. So I told him, "look im going to rest tomorrow I'll try and call you late evening". Midday phones ringing, wakes me up. I dont answer. Lost count but he called me over 40 times in 2 hours. Then I get facebook messages from brother - loads. Then texts, then my wife gets them. Abusive stuff from my brother "why was I ignoring Dad and being mean and making him worry?" then it got worse, bad language how I basically was the scum of the earth, selfish etc. All this is in about 4 hours because I'd ignored everyone because I was ill. 4 HOURS.

Dads argument after "but I was worried something had happened to you!". Like what. Bear in mind, I've no health problems, a chest infection is unlikely to kill me. Also, I'd like to think my wife, a qualified nurse, who was there at the time, may have looked after me. She got it worse than me - apparently she should have been keeping my Dad appraised of the situation and should not have popped to the store for an hour like she did. Crazy or what?

Best thing I ever did was block brother....