When someone on "your side" sees "their perspective."

[Blackbird11]

I did this to myself. I'm starting off with that.

I know the first rule of coming Out of the FOG (at least for me) has been keep explanations and venting minimal, even to people I love and care about. It's not worth it to explain. It won't change anything. People don't get it unless they live with it.

So instead of talking to my friends or family, I journal. I come here. I talk to my therapist. That has been working so far.

So today I had a long text interaction with stbx uPDh about something, and I was like "OMG. I can't believe this. I need [my good friend of many years] to see this so she can agree that this crap is bonkers."

I send text chain to good friend for commiseration. (Broke my rule - maybe the stress is getting to me.)

She reads it and then tells me - "Sorry but I can see both sides. I won't keep talking if you don't want an unbiased opinion." Which basically means she thinks I'm also in the wrong in this scenario.

Cue me going on a lengthy text exchange with her, trying to explain the intricacies of this conversation I had with him, give her context and historical data not represented in the text, and trying to really sell her on "My side" (if you've ever seen that meme with the guy from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia standing by a bulletin board explaining his crazy theory - that was me). I went on and on and then I rested my case, so to speak.

This good friend has been a good friend for many years because she literally lets go of things, and as I'm a sensitive person that tends to hold on to things, it's a good ying and yang. By tomorrow, she'll be on to something else. Yet I will be sitting here feeling like an idiot for A. Attempting to bring her into the situation and B. Going on and on trying to explain myself to her.

While trying to "sell her," I went back and read the text exchange with stbx uPDh because I'm like "well maybe she saw something that I didn't?"

What I now understand is that I see what he is saying, and it's consistent with the storyline he either believes is real or portrays as real (still unclear on what his reality consists of). So yes, to a person who doesn't see all of the other stuff that led to this or goes on behind closed doors, it would be hard to understand.

But I guess what I am getting at is: because I have to explain so much to get people to understand - even to people I have known and been close to for years - I have an underlying fear that maybe I'm the one misinterpreting reality. And I've seen this posted in other places - the "what if I'm the one with the personality disorder?" worry. 

Has anyone else ever felt like this?

[Poison Ivy]

Yes.  Here are a few examples, both of which occurred while I was still married.

1) My then-husband was fired.  I told a good friend. One of the first things she said was that he should at the very least do all the housework because I was working (still am) and he wasn't.  A few months or years later, when I commented to her that he wasn't do any housework, even though he was still unemployed, she said something like, "Oh, that's because he's a man." 

2) I said something to my mom about my then-husband's consistent behavior of not talking to me much or at all.  She then said that she and my dad wouldn't have had a long marriage (more than 50 years) if they had talked to each other. 

[notrightinthehead]

I think it's quite common for people on this board. I certainly have gone through phases when I was rather certain that it was me. And I went and saw a therapist.  And of course there are fleas...  Just recently this suspicion crept up on me again, out of nowhere. What if it was all a big misunderstanding on my side and all my fault? That I am the difficult one and just can't see it?

As for your friend who can see both sides. You clearly wanted her to understand you and to see it your way. You were disappointed that she seemed not to and pushed harder.  I don't know if you ever listened to what she had to say and if that was so wrong in your eyes. I remember once playing a recording of my NPDhs rants for a friend and she also did not seem to get it. It's the accumulation and the innuendos and my friend clearly did not get that.

[Blackbird11]

Poison Ivy: This is why I don't like talking to people about it if they don't live with this. People will make offhand comments like what you're referring to, and I will ruminate over that stuff for days. Then again - I also have OCD, so it's easy for me to get stuck on things for a while.

It is SO confusing though when you're in this labyrinth of lies/distortions, and you try to explain something you think is demonstrative of the bigger issue at hand, and a person dismisses it as some kind of common human characteristic that most people are expected to put up with in a relationship.

So in this text chain I refer to above, stbx started using curse words when the conversation didn't go in the direction he wanted it to. Not directly like "F you" but he started to pepper them in, in a way that I feel is aggressive. My friend's response to that was: "Well I curse when I'm angry too." First of all - this friend curses way less than me. It almost seemed like she WANTED to justify this behavior, because she just can't wrap her brain around the fact that someone could be so calculating or abusive.

And in typing this response, I just realized: I felt like I had to add credibility to my story, because some people just can't believe you were/are being abused. And I am not upset with my friend. Her parting words were "I was not defending him. I am here for you." But even well-meaning, relatively open-minded people can find it hard to believe and understand abuse.

And notright:

What if it was all a big misunderstanding on my side and all my fault? That I am the difficult one and just can't see it?

It's funny because one of the issues with OCD is the need to attain "certainty." And I feel like this is a slippery slope for me. The best practice according to therapists I've worked with is to accept uncertainty and keep trying to live by your values. So that could be applicable here too, I guess.

[Poison Ivy]

Yep, this:   "a person dismisses it as some kind of common human characteristic that most people are expected to put up with in a relationship." For example, I knew that my father wasn't a saint (nor is my mom or me), but my husband's behavior around communication really was off the charts.

[notrightinthehead]

Blackbird, you made a very important point with ....."because some people just can't believe you were/are being abused."..... I have noticed that often. It seems to be a self protective measure, we prefer to believe that all is going well with our friends, they are not being abused, things are not so bad, because if things are bad for them, and they are my friends, things  might become bad for me too. So we prefer to hope for the best until we are forced  to believe differently.
So glad that your friend remains your friend and you both can move past this. Maybe eventually she will get it.

[GettingOOTF]

I found that people who haven't lived with abuse or a PD person have no understanding of what it's like, and even then they can still be FOGgy.

I don't talk about my BPDxH or my FOO with anyone except my therapist and these boards.

Being invalidated, especially on the early days, was in many ways harder than what I was going through.

The thing is that I used to say the same things my friends do now. I think most people live their lives in some sort of FOG and we only come out of it when we are forced to.

It's really upsetting and frustrating that my closest friend cannot see what my ex did as abusive. There is no grey area to some of the things he did, she simply doesn't see it. But her ex husband and mine shared a lot of the same characteristics and behavior so the reality is that she's not acknowledging her experience which of course comes out as invalidating mine.

Personally I think it's highly unlikely that anyone gets divorced over a misunderstanding. Your experiences are valid. As my therapist says when I bring up my friend, your friend is limited in this area and now you know she cannot support you in the way you want and need. It doesn't make her a bed person nor does it make you wrong.

Hang in there.

[Blackbird11]

Thank you all for helping me process this. 

[moglow]

Blackbird, try and remember that you *don't* have to explain any of it, to anyone. As others pointed out, the accumulation is what got you where you are with him. A one-time incident could easily be picked apart and blown off, but there's history between you and that makes all the difference.

Seeing both sides isn't always a bad thing - it helps me step back and mainly ask myself why I went there at all, yet again. And hopefully I remember that next time, refuse to engage with the futility of it all.

I can and will play devil's advocate all day, but it still infuriates me when I share things with those who *know* and have seen/heard it in action yet they STILL try and play it off. No, families aren't that way!! Everyone deserves respect and dignity, family or not. When a conversation reaches that point, I shut down, realizing that I can't and will likely never be able to get that person to see it. BUT I also try and remember, they don't have to.

I guess what I really want to say is, no one should be expected to pick sides. This relationship is/was between you and him, and all the explanations in the world won't show others what it did to you. Until people experience it first hand (like my brothers finally have with mommie dearest in the past several years), it's all just words. Nothing I shared all those years before made a dent - now that they see it, they get it. Doesnt make it a good thing by any means, but at least there's some understanding.

Your friend knows, and probably just wants better for you. I would imagine it hurts seeing you drag yourself backwards in time and hurting all over again.

Peace. 

[Free2Bme]

Blackbird,
Thank you for opening up about this topic. 

There are simply not enough hours (or days !)  to build enough history/context in order to explain to someone else the interaction like the one you had via text with your updxh.  Also, I think even well-meaning people have a tendency to see a friends experience through the lens of their own experience.  This becomes a barrier to understanding particulars of a PD relationship.

I handled this really badly after my divorce.  I was fed up with the cover up of all the dysfunction and desperate for validation.  I spoke too freely with others and it didn't go well.  There are a few friends that have said they believe I am telling the truth because of the person they know me to be, but they still can't understand my complex family dynamics.  I have run across only a couple of aquaintences that 'got it', they too had experience with disordered people.

I realized I have to be okay internally with what I know to be true and not second guess myself or my interpretations.  The second guessing is what kept me in the marriage for 20 yrs and it doesn't serve me well anymore. 

You are not an idiot for what you did.  You learned something about yourself and what to do going forward.  I find that writing things down and drawing diagrams/pictures (silly, I know) to describe what happened is helpful.  It brings things to a conclusion and establishes truth.  When you are tempted to revisit that situation and second guess yourself, go back to what you wrote and assure yourself that you are of sound mind.  It's a gift you give to yourself.

take care




 

[Ariel]

The only way friends have understood,the best they could,is when I played them a saved voicemail of my mom putting me down and trashing me. The shock on their face actually surprised me since it wasn't even her worst tirades:  they then said that's not normal and that you probably heard this your whole life and don't understand how wrong it is. Unfortunately I lost my phone and can't retrieve that email. But normally raised people just can't understand the vileness and hatred that our parents treat us with

[1footouttadefog]

That we cannot explain why a conversation or text exchange is abusive or loaded with emotional popshots just illustrates that what we live with in our PD relationships is teuely not the norm.

It also shows how careful they are when wording things so it will appear normal to an onlooker.  Makes us seem paranoid if we attempt to explain.

A friend has an ex who whould make a huge argument in the car in the way to church. He wohld tell her he had married the wrong f ing c word and otjer nice things right as they got into the parking lot.  Then once at church he would call her some seemingly nice phrase.

Of course when she heard the little phrase she would related it to the last thing she had said in the car.  If he had said the phrase in mixed company she would feel offended while he seemed to be giving her a complement.   Explainimg this would be a loosing battle and make her seem petty and oaranoid etc.