Wanting things NOW!

[p123]

This is driving me crazy at the moment....

Its a tough time for all, things are different. Services are running a skeleton service. Patience is needed. People need to be cut a bit of slack....

Dad gets "meals on wheels". He used to pay cash every week. For obvious reasons, when this all started they said no more cash, bear with us, we'll send you a bill when we get chance.
Demand has risen a lot they say, a lot more elderly people at home. They've been doing a great job getting people fed- they've not missed one visit with Dad.

Is he happy? NO WAY. He wants to pay and doesn't want to wait for a bill.

I've explained to them that they;re rushed off their feet, the office is likely to be closed, they're concentrating on getting the food delivered and will sort out the money when they can. They deliver to him, they know where he lives, they won't forget about it. When the bill comes, call me and I'll phone them.
So hes been hassling the poor guy who delivers the food who knows nothing about how it works. I said Dad leave him alone - hes delivering the food its not his call.

Every single time I call Dad hes on about this. I give up. The latest and this is golden hes "so stressed he owes money" and "what if he gets in trouble for not paying".
His latest is he wants me to phone them and insist they have to let him pay.

Is it me or is his attitude just plain awful?

I think of the poor man who delivers this food getting nasty comments off my Dad because things are not working out how he wants.

Of course, no way am I phoning them on his behalf....

[PeanutButter]

YES! That is an awful (really dramatically misery inducing) attitude.
Is it even an honest presentation of what his feelings and desires are though?
Imo it probably isnt. Hes just making up something new to get attention on himself.

[p123]

YES! That is an awful (really dramatically misery inducing) attitude.
Is it even an honest presentation of what his feelings and desires are though?
Imo it probably isnt. Hes just making up something new to get attention on himself.

Sad to say this is Dads MO. He seems to have little consideration for others and if he decides he wants something then its got to be NOW. He has no understanding of the concept of patience.

A lot of it is anxiety with him. He gets an idea in his head that something HAS to be done now or there will be consequences. And then won't listen to anyone else.
I probably told the story on here about the time I was at Glastonbury. Middle of a field, little signal, low battery. I'd said in advance, try not to call me unless its urgent and to call my brother.
Nope he called me. Well brother txt me, refused to deal and said I HAD to call him. Called me all sorts of names because I refused.

I was right not to call. This was a saturday. I was switching his electricity supply to someone else,  told him to expect a letter from the old one because there MAY be a balance to pay but no worries I'll sort it. The latter came that saturday. Of course, in his head this was now URGENT. His excuse "well I wanted it paid and out of the way". His "ideas" were more important that spoiling my weekend.
I don't think they were even open on a saturday afternoon anyway. I really think he had this idea if he didnt pay THAT DAY they'd be turning his electricity off come the sunday (he doesnt believe you cant cut off electric like a phone line).

Sorted in 10 mins by me on monday. drama over.

Attention maybe but more like a desire to have things exactly how he wants regardless of anyone else.

[Sidney37]

Hi p123
It's certainly a lack of patience, a dislike for change and anxiety.  I see lots of rigid thinking in your father.  I'm so sorry you are dealing with this!   

I'm not sure if this violates the rules of diagnosing others, but it comes from a personal experience in our family.  If it isn't ok administrators, I understand.   Please remove.   I've been wondering about your dad for a while. 

I know they you've mentioned you have a child with autism.   When we had our kids tested (it ended up being adhd medication side effects causing autism like symptoms)  for autism/Aspergers the doctors at the university had long discussions with us about family history of autism/Aspergers and other family members who had those symptoms.  We were stunned to see behaviors in a few older relatives that the doctors thought could be PD but was more likely to be high functioning autism that was never diagnosed.  Is it possible that your dad's anxiety and rigid thinking might be a form of autism that was never diagnosed?   Would it change how you respond to him?  Maybe or maybe not?  We've gone back and forth about my MIL as to whether her issues are PD or Aspergers or both.   

The reason I mention this is that my reaction to her demands changed when i decided it was partly Aspergers or autism.  How I thought about, internalized and responded to her insults and demands changed when I started to believe it was mainly autism and just somewhat  PD on top of the autism.   So me people would react in the same way no matter the diagnosis.   There isn't a right or wrong way here.  Some research I read indicated that there is some overlap between the two.  Just wanted to throw it out there because it helped me to react differently and it changed my expectations when dealing with older relatives with PD traits. 

[Andeza]

With anything involving the functioning of the mind it is so hard to point and say this behavior is this, that, or another. I wish it was that easy. Sidney makes a good point that more than one thing may be at play here. What is absolutely, abundantly clear is that he's not a normal functioning individual. His reactions therefore will never be within the scope of normal I'm afraid. He'll always shock you with how weird, off, or inconsiderate his demands are.

That said, I see he didn't cancel meals on wheels like he said he would. You didn't step up the fill the void he tried to create, so he knew he'd be up the creek without a paddle. Good job, P123

[p123]

Hi p123
It's certainly a lack of patience, a dislike for change and anxiety.  I see lots of rigid thinking in your father.  I'm so sorry you are dealing with this!   

I'm not sure if this violates the rules of diagnosing others, but it comes from a personal experience in our family.  If it isn't ok administrators, I understand.   Please remove.   I've been wondering about your dad for a while. 

I know they you've mentioned you have a child with autism.   When we had our kids tested (it ended up being adhd medication side effects causing autism like symptoms)  for autism/Aspergers the doctors at the university had long discussions with us about family history of autism/Aspergers and other family members who had those symptoms.  We were stunned to see behaviors in a few older relatives that the doctors thought could be PD but was more likely to be high functioning autism that was never diagnosed.  Is it possible that your dad's anxiety and rigid thinking might be a form of autism that was never diagnosed?   Would it change how you respond to him?  Maybe or maybe not?  We've gone back and forth about my MIL as to whether her issues are PD or Aspergers or both.   

The reason I mention this is that my reaction to her demands changed when i decided it was partly Aspergers or autism.  How I thought about, internalized and responded to her insults and demands changed when I started to believe it was mainly autism and just somewhat  PD on top of the autism.   So me people would react in the same way no matter the diagnosis.   There isn't a right or wrong way here.  Some research I read indicated that there is some overlap between the two.  Just wanted to throw it out there because it helped me to react differently and it changed my expectations when dealing with older relatives with PD traits.

Do you know what Sidney my wife always say this that hes got autism.......

He'll never ever do anything about it though. He thinks mental illness is all "made up" and depressed people need to "get a grip" and "pull their socks up".

[p123]

With anything involving the functioning of the mind it is so hard to point and say this behavior is this, that, or another. I wish it was that easy. Sidney makes a good point that more than one thing may be at play here. What is absolutely, abundantly clear is that he's not a normal functioning individual. His reactions therefore will never be within the scope of normal I'm afraid. He'll always shock you with how weird, off, or inconsiderate his demands are.

That said, I see he didn't cancel meals on wheels like he said he would. You didn't step up the fill the void he tried to create, so he knew he'd be up the creek without a paddle. Good job, P123

He threatens all sorts these days. Last week was "its too expensive I'm cancelling my pay tv". As I've said before hes got tons of money. When he got no reaction from me he then said "I'll miss it though I wont have anything to watch but its so expensive".

Now I just think, do what you want, why should I care? You're an adult and can make you're own decisions. I can't stop you cancelling, it wont affect me, I'm not entertaining you so why should I care?

[PeanutButter]

With anything involving the functioning of the mind it is so hard to point and say this behavior is this, that, or another. I wish it was that easy. Sidney makes a good point that more than one thing may be at play here. What is absolutely, abundantly clear is that he's not a normal functioning individual. His reactions therefore will never be within the scope of normal I'm afraid. He'll always shock you with how weird, off, or inconsiderate his demands are.

That said, I see he didn't cancel meals on wheels like he said he would. You didn't step up the fill the void he tried to create, so he knew he'd be up the creek without a paddle. Good job, P123

He threatens all sorts these days. Last week was "its too expensive I'm cancelling my pay tv". As I've said before hes got tons of money. When he got no reaction from me he then said "I'll miss it though I wont have anything to watch but its so expensive".

Now I just think, do what you want, why should I care? You're an adult and can make you're own decisions. I can't stop you cancelling, it wont affect me, I'm not entertaining you so why should I care?

This is imo indivative of what I said before because if it is really just his honest feelings and desires why would your non reaction change his 'honest' feelings and desires?

[Starboard Song]

Now I just think, do what you want, why should I care? You're an adult and can make you're own decisions. I can't stop you cancelling, it wont affect me, I'm not entertaining you so why should I care?

That's a great first step. Now it is time to start rewarding yourself with actual peace of mind.

When we rhetorically ask ourselves why we should care, we then need to actually not care. I think it is great that you've gotten to this sort of fake-it-til-you-make-it spot. Those thoughts you are describing are spot on. Why should you care? That's really excellent. Now you have to believe that and internalize it, because you plainly still care quite a bit.

There are different strategies that I've heard people use. For me, I find that fretting over my long-absent in-laws can be addictive. It's a self-righteous little adrenaline rush for me, and they are a problem that is easier to feel right about than, say, work issues. So I have found a small number of busy-work tasks to assign my brain to when I want to fret over them. Some are household planning, like garden or maintenance planning. Others are mathematical problems, philosophical or logic puzzles, some are even politics. Any of it is better than thinking for another damn hour about my in-laws after rightly declaring to myself, why should I care?

Good luck, sir! This is so hard to go through.

[illogical]

... Those thoughts you are describing are spot on. Why should you care? That's really excellent. Now you have to believe that and internalize it, because you plainly still care quite a bit.

Hi p123,

I think Starboard Song nailed it.  There is a disconnect between working toward emotional detachment, which, IMHO, involves indifference, and the pull of "Well, he's my dad.  Of course I care about him."

And I also agree with what Starboard Song said about how hard this is to reconcile.

My experience?  I tried for years to please my NM.  Even after I came Out of the FOG and recognized that she had NPD, I still felt the childhood pull of obligation.  But part of coming Out of the FOG was realizing that I had been groomed by my NM to serve her-- endlessly, and certainly at my own peril.

I say "my own peril" because, over time, I came to realize that my NM lacked empathy.  Not just with me, but anyone and everyone.  She could only see her needs and her needs only.  She had raised me to serve those needs, with no thought that I might also have needs.  I also realized there was no compromising with her.  It was her way or the highway, to use the cliche. 

In the end, I chose the highway.  I was not going to let her and her endless needs drag me into the darkness.  Because that's where I felt I was headed.  Into the abyss.  I could not "save" her from herself, but I sure as hell could save myself.

We are each on our own journey here, p123.  I wish you well in yours.  I think you are doing great-- you are beginning to realize that your dad is incapable of so much you maybe thought he was capable of before you came Out of the FOG-- i.e., caring about you and yours, empathizing that you are a person with needs and he is not the only one with needs.  Understanding that whatever you do, it will never be enough.  These realizations are monumental and are milestones in your journey.

For me, I reconciled the indifference with the need for caring by telling myself, "It's okay to care about NM.  It's okay to love her, although I can't expect she will love me back.  But I must put my needs before hers.  I am the only one who can live my life.  And she is the only one who can live hers.  I have to let go of my need to feel responsible for her, so I will cut loose the figurative mooring line and let her drift.  I can no longer steer her boat.  I resign that role, and let her drive her own destiny."

Take care.  I wish you well!

[p123]

I think last vacation made things clear in my mind. He hates me going away and ALWAYS plays up and pretends hes ill.

So we fly to Florida (its 8 hours on a plane). I'd told him in advance look I'll call when I get chance. So I call "Hi dad we're here". No hi or anything all I got was "I've been ill, Ive had to get the doctor out but I don't want you to worry".

I fully expected this. I'm the other side of the world what do you want me to do?

Do you know what though I worried for about 1 second then got on with my holiday. Why? Because I knew that there was a 99.9% chance this was all made up. Hes my Dad and I love him but I can't sacrifice my life for his games.

To be honest, me being annoyed took longer for me to drop - thats my main problem at the moment in all things. I mean even if you are ill, who makes their son/duaghter worry when their thousands of miles away and cant do anything anyway? Unless there was no choice, if it was me, I'd keep quiet. So I know this was Dads "punishment" to me for going on holiday against his wishes almost "how dare you go and leave me like this, I need you to worry about me when you're away".

I'm working on this. He does it now when I'm home. Hes cried wolf so many times. I've got my head around that fact that hes likely to be dead in his chair one day and neither me or any health professionals will have believed that he was really ill this time. I've got it dealt with in my head that if he wants to make things up then its his call if things got his way.

[Adrianna]

It's common for them to fake an illness or even possibly injure themselves so as to need medical care to prevent their primary source of supply from going on vacation. It's to keep you in line. Under their control. The fact that you badly need a vacation does not matter. What matters is they need attention like air and if you're on holiday he won't be getting any from you.

It's one of their tricks in the Narc rule book. I know a woman whose father used to do it do she couldn't tell him when she went away. She doesn't think her father was a narc but I beg to differ from what I've heard from her. I think there are more of them out there than we might think. This lady I know just says it was what people do when they get old, he couldn't help it, can't blame him, etc. I told her you'd never do that to your kids no matter how old you are and it's not a normal part of the aging process.

[WomanInterrupted]

You wrote:

Hes cried wolf so many times. I've got my head around that fact that hes likely to be dead in his chair one day and neither me or any health professionals will have believed that he was really ill this time.

That's what he WANTS you to believe.  That's *exactly* what your dad wants you to think - that he's HELPLESS, when the truth is, Waifs are some of the most astonishingly resourceful people there are!

You haven't been there for quite some time and he's getting on juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust fine, isn't he? 

Well, he'll continue to do that, regardless of whether you go over or not - but he won't stop bleating at you as long as he thinks there's a hope and a prayer of getting you to  DO stuff for him, and take up *all your time with his wants, which he'll claim are "necessities."*

They aren't. 

If you were to fall off the face of the earth tomorrow, your dad would get along.  He'd just go down the list to the next easiest person to bug, and then the next, and the next, and the next - and there's *always* a "next" person on the list - even if it's a relative he can't stand and hasn't spoken to in 20 years.

Now that lockdowns are starting to lighten up, I'd make a point to tell your dad you are SLAMMED with work and won't be able to shop.  You can ONLY have his groceries delivered or send people over - and that's IT. 

If your dad won't listen and starts blowing up your phone, block him for the week.  Treat him like toddler having a tantrum, and you're giving him a much-needed time out. 

Your dad will only push you around because he knows he CAN - if he's been able to do it in the past, he should be able to do it now, but *more* because of the  whole COVID thing and you not risking it by violating quarantine and doing his bidding.

Yes - he's probably going to be mad as hell and try to have you make it up to him by driving you insane.  Don't let him - if he can't  DROP IT once you say no, he gets blocked, and that's that.

It's how you'd treat a toddler - your dad is no different. 

Just because life as we know it is going to be back - more-or-less - sooner than later - doesn't mean things are going back to the way they were with your dad.  If he doesn't like it, he can figure out something else -and he WILL, if you're *firm* enough and your resolve is strong enough.

[lkdrymom]

I had that same conversation with another coworker who was dealing with an aging narc parent.  I said of my father "He has cried wolf (claiming he is on death's door)so many times that I no longer believe anything he says....but sooner or later he is going to be right".  But I won't feel guilty if I don't believe him when he is actually right.  He overused his right to emergencies.  Everything with them is an emergency.  So many times my father insisted I had to come and speak with him right away.  Always has to be in person not over the phone.  I get there and he tells me 'never mind'.  And he wonders why I stopped running over there.  My standard answer would be "I will be there on (previously scheduled visiting date) and you can tell me then."  There would be push back to come earlier.  On a rare occasion I said I could come earlier but that would cancel out the other date.

[p123]

You wrote:

Hes cried wolf so many times. I've got my head around that fact that hes likely to be dead in his chair one day and neither me or any health professionals will have believed that he was really ill this time.

That's what he WANTS you to believe.  That's *exactly* what your dad wants you to think - that he's HELPLESS, when the truth is, Waifs are some of the most astonishingly resourceful people there are!

You haven't been there for quite some time and he's getting on juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust fine, isn't he? 

Well, he'll continue to do that, regardless of whether you go over or not - but he won't stop bleating at you as long as he thinks there's a hope and a prayer of getting you to  DO stuff for him, and take up *all your time with his wants, which he'll claim are "necessities."*

They aren't. 

If you were to fall off the face of the earth tomorrow, your dad would get along.  He'd just go down the list to the next easiest person to bug, and then the next, and the next, and the next - and there's *always* a "next" person on the list - even if it's a relative he can't stand and hasn't spoken to in 20 years.

Now that lockdowns are starting to lighten up, I'd make a point to tell your dad you are SLAMMED with work and won't be able to shop.  You can ONLY have his groceries delivered or send people over - and that's IT. 

If your dad won't listen and starts blowing up your phone, block him for the week.  Treat him like toddler having a tantrum, and you're giving him a much-needed time out. 

Your dad will only push you around because he knows he CAN - if he's been able to do it in the past, he should be able to do it now, but *more* because of the  whole COVID thing and you not risking it by violating quarantine and doing his bidding.

Yes - he's probably going to be mad as hell and try to have you make it up to him by driving you insane.  Don't let him - if he can't  DROP IT once you say no, he gets blocked, and that's that.

It's how you'd treat a toddler - your dad is no different. 

Just because life as we know it is going to be back - more-or-less - sooner than later - doesn't mean things are going back to the way they were with your dad.  If he doesn't like it, he can figure out something else -and he WILL, if you're *firm* enough and your resolve is strong enough.

To be honest, not having me there to do things for him is worse than this lockdown for Dad I think. Its been good though - I'm working, live 20+ miles away, brother lost his job and lives 1 mile away. Ha ha - carry on and do the running around.

Dad has tried his best to still allocate me tasks to annoy me. Ring these people, ring that. Today he was awful - got a slight leak in his bathroom so I said OK I would fill the form online and get the housing people to look at it.

Can you ring them? NO the form is fine they will ring me back.
When will they arrive? I dont know I dont work there. may be some delay but I'm sure they've got people for things like leaks.
So whats the problem with the leak? No idea I'm not a plumber.
How much will it cost me to sort the wall out theres water running down? No idea I'm not a decorator.

Then he escalates to how hes so stressed about it, cant sleep because hes so worried about it. That did it for me - would he rather be on a ventilator in hospital dying? ITs all drama with Dad over nothing.

In wales, from monday, we're allowed to meet others outside. BUT, for some reason (its weird), not more than 5 miles away. YESSSSSS I live 20 miles away. And hes not got a garden anyway.

Trouble is my stupid brother picked him up today and drove him to a local because its OK because it less than 5 miles away. NO!!!!! Dad has now sat in small car, 1 foot away from you, in an enclosed space. It doesnt matter about others - my brother could be contagious. Jeez the pair of them are fit for each other... I can just see my brother walking in the house, touching everything, hugging Dad.
I know you could argue the risk is getting less but jeez at least try a little. If Dad gets it hes had it.

[nanotech]

Yup, not a sensible idea,  but that's gotta be up to your dad and bro. They must have decided to accept that risk.
It's sad when people take silly risks but they are two grown guys, and they did that.
If they are anything like my family, they may  well take pleasure in your worry over this.
So don't be worried, and don't show worry.
I know you love your dad. I love mine. He is being quite careful, but when he rings me and tells me that at 88 years old he's going to go to the garden centre, or for a walk in town where lots of people are walking and not observing social distancing, then I must bite my lip and say ' ok dad.' He's also got a hospital trip lined up in June. I'm sure a telephone appointment would suffice, but dad won't listen and I'll just get yelled at and then scapegoated if I say anything. This has been a hard lesson for me because like you,  I have his best interests at heart. He doesn't see it that way. He sees it as me trying to spoil his fun.

[p123]

Yup, not a sensible idea,  but that's gotta be up to your dad and bro. They must have decided to accept that risk.
It's sad when people take silly risks but they are two grown guys, and they did that.
If they are anything like my family, they may  well take pleasure in your worry over this.
So don't be worried, and don't show worry.
I know you love your dad. I love mine. He is being quite careful, but when he rings me and tells me that at 88 years old he's going to go to the garden centre, or for a walk in town where lots of people are walking and not observing social distancing, then I must bite my lip and say ' ok dad.' He's also got a hospital trip lined up in June. I'm sure a telephone appointment would suffice, but dad won't listen and I'll just get yelled at and then scapegoated if I say anything. This has been a hard lesson for me because like you,  I have his best interests at heart. He doesn't see it that way. He sees it as me trying to spoil his fun.

Oh yes exactly. Do what you want. BUT his argument was "but we only went 5 miles you're allowed to do that and we didn't see anyone else". I pointed out he'd sat in the car with his son who may or may not had it and he said "oh hes hasnt got it". Sure?

Main thing is now brother has done it then he will EXPECT me to do my duty and so the same. Luckily I live 20+ miles away so not supposed to travel that far for now.
I've got kids, inc a 6 year old whos been back and fore emergency school, and wife (whos been off ill) but will be going back to work as a community nurse soon. I'll be pretty high risk. Compared to my brother who has no kids at home.

Despite how he is, Im not being the one who passes it to him and kills him. I don't think its sensible just yet for me to have contact.

Also, I know if I do it once, then it'll be like the return of the prodigal son. He WILL expect me to make up time for the last few months, all my time will be his to do as he pleases. His attitude will be "well you've seen you're family loads and haven't even seen me". Its not been that simple, I've been working all week but he doesnt count that (its just an office job and I cant possibly be "working" from home because theres no boss there to check what I do".

So I won't be "accelerating" any contact thats for sure....

[nanotech]

I think he's lucky you ring him at all.
He invalidates and dismisses everything you have in your life, and everything you do.  Job, family,
You don't need to provide reasons not to go.
He's watching the news. He knows what he's doing.
You could risk catching it from him, now he's been in contact with your brother. Please take care.

[PeanutButter]

 IMO allow and accept that your dad can expect anything he wants to. There is no need for you to argue or debate his expectations to try change them.

Just because your dad expects something of you does not in any way have to influence what you choose to do.

IME instead you focus on your wants, your needs, and your expectations and make that a priority. Noone else is going to. There is not a tradeoff. If you prioritise your dads wants, needs, and expectations he will prioritises your wants, needs, and expectations and your both happy. No if you prioritise him you are neglected not just by him but also by yourself.

[p123]

I think he's lucky you ring him at all.
He invalidates and dismisses everything you have in your life, and everything you do.  Job, family,
You don't need to provide reasons not to go.
He's watching the news. He knows what he's doing.
You could risk catching it from him, now he's been in contact with your brother. Please take care.

Sometimes nano honestly... I havent missed him AT ALL.