BPDstbxH and defiant middle child

[capybara]

Hi everyone,

I've been staying off the boards since stbxH moved out in the fall. He's mostly been behaving very well and I didn't want to jinx anything.

BUT.... I feel like the dam is breaking. Last month I told him I have a boyfriend and now our lawyers are starting to work on the separation. I think the stuff may be hitting the fan and I am scared.

Middle child, a young teen, is quite defiant and has been in behavioural counselling forever. Frankly this child was stbxH's scapegoat quite often, but as they attended the counseling together and stbxH was in his own counselling, there was improvement between them. Things were getting better between me at the kid too, and especially right after stbxH moved out. We were really getting along. A couple of months ago we even negotiated agreements about wi-fi access/ screen time that we were both ok with, and that were working well.

But the last few weeks.... there's been lots of conflict, lots of cheating on the rules, lying, and lots of conflict about home schooling too. The kid says that if I take away phone access, the kid is entitled to take my devices away. Etc., I'm sure many of you can imagine what it's like. What really frightens me is some almost BPD-ish behaviour, that when he is telling me about something that upset him, he only seems to remember what upset him, as though the other parts of the event never happened. So of course it's unfair to him, because it's like he doesn't remember the whole story.

Anyway, maybe this was stupid, but I sent stbxH a long email saying that I think the kid needs more help than the current counsellor can give, and attaching a list of the behaviours that are worrying me.

Today I got two emails from stbxH, the first one calm and the second furious. Saying I left him,  etc., and that I need to accept my responsibility here, listen to my child, do what it takes to help my child. Saying I am not listening to the kid's concerns and the kid is very hurt. Maybe the kid needs to spend more time with stbxH etc. etc. "Summarizing" what happened in the kid's last counselling session with me, but totally inaccurately. Saying there were no problems when stbxH went to counselling with the kid, just when I started going.

I think at stbxH's place, screen time is unlimited and there is not too much worrying about schoolwork. The kid has also been talking about moving there. I am scared and angry.

I have written (not sent yet) a very calm email saying yes, I do need to help my child, yes, I want to get him help, and also I think it would help him if we had the same expectations about wi-fi and schools and can we talk about it.

Is this a good idea? What should I do?

[Free2Bme]

Hi capybara, good to see you here

I am truely sorry to hear about your challenges with DS.  I have been in a similar situation with both of my middle children (boys now 18 & 20), and are GC and SG, respectively.   

What stands out to me the most about your post  is :
-your DS comment about being entitled to take away your phone if you limit access to his.
-BPD-ish observations
-stbxh angry email blaming you

My impression is that either your son is experiencing stress/frustration/depression due to change (Covid/school/etc), and acting out or he's being alienated by dad.  You DS may be manufacturing chaos to justify wanting to move with dad, or DS is being coerced.  Stbxh may be coaching him, if so,  DS may need to create conflict between himself/you so he could emotionally detach and move away.  As far as stbxh "summarizing" the counseling session, this sounds like a power play to me.  Like he's setting things up against you, you're the problem, and everything is great with dad/son.  If there is unlimited screen time at dads, that tells me stbxh wants DS to see you as the bad guy for having limits.

That said, my experience ...
I went through this with both boys, with my older DS, it became very, very ugly.  For the sake of context, prior to my divorce, I had very close relationships with both of my boys.  They treated me with respect, kindness and never gave us any trouble.  (When I left, they were 16 & 14).   Older DS became very depressed with BPD traits and began acting out in all sorts of ways, risk taking, shoplifting, posturing with me, fighting with siblings, damaged property, not repecting boundaries, and yes... threatened to take my phone many times, followed through with it on one occasion.  The local police in our upper middle class neighborhood, and knew us by name.     I never slept, it became unbearable.  When he turned 18, I had to kick him out of my home.  It was the hardest, most painful thing I ever had to do.  (Younger DS had already gone to live with updxh).  After 2 years, my younger son is now going down a similar path, not so much towards me, but wrong crowd and drugs. 

In my case, my updxh sabotaged all efforts to get counseling for my boys from the get-go, he refused to co-parent with me, and tells kids that I am to blame for everything bad that has happened post divorce.  At dad's house, it swings wildly between zero supervision/consequences and micromanagement, depending on the day. 

As far as writing the email, if you think it would reflect well upon your character/mothering before a court, then it might be beneficial.  I am not sure if it would have any positive effect on stbxh though. ( Just make sure it is not used against you in any way).

Can you change counselors without dad's agreement? 
Could you speak with DS counselor privately and express these concerns? 
Can you have a calm conversation with DS at a time of no conflict and get him to open up to you about what he is thinking/feeling?

Your DS really needs you, even if he doesn't act like it.  DS is probably hurting and confused, so try not to take it personally.  Don't let stbxh hijack situation and make it about him, your child is what is important here.

Sending you strength and clarity 

[Penny Lane]

Hi capybara and welcome to this part of the forum, though I'm sorry you had to be here.

I think you are right to connect the boyfriend (congratulations!) and the moving forward with divorce proceedings to your ex's new bad behavior. You can't really do anything about it right now, but it helps to mentally connect it as part of a cycle and not how it's going to be forever.

Please keep in mind that the Venn diagram of PD behaviors and normal teen behaviors is almost a circle. Lots and lots of us (myself included) have seen an increase in PDlike behaviors among teens and preteens and worried they were turning into their PD parent. On top of regular teen angst, your son is also dealing with a pandemic AND his parents getting divorced. That's enough to bring out the worst in anyone. The good news is that there are already strategies for dealing with this and they are basically the same as generally parenting teens, with some twists because of the PD. Both the behaviors you cite seem to fall in this category. Everyone's parenting style is a little different but here's an example of what we might do at my house:

When he says that he can take away your phone you say "that's not how it works." Reinforce that the phone is a privilege and that he can make the rules for his phone when he is paying for it. If he keeps whining and arguing you say "I want to have a discussion with you but I have reached my limit of arguing right now, let's take a break and talk about this when we're calmer." (And then we actually do have the discussion later, and when we encourage them to look for solutions they often come back with some).

When he retells a story leaving out important details, just listen. Don't call him out on it necessarily, but don't take action based solely on his word either. Start by asking critical thinking questions like "what do you think the other person would say if they're here?" or "was there a reason they did that?" If you do have to make a decision or take action based on something he tells you, go out of your way to talk to the other person first. You can explicitly tie this to the style of communication and when things are calm, explain that him leaving out important pieces of information makes it hard for you to trust that he's telling you accurate information. It's a trust issue.

That's not to say that your ex isn't having a terrible effect on your son (he is) or that this isn't a somewhat high-stakes situation (it is).

Here is the thing that many of us have learned about our exes (or in my case my husband's PD ex, my stepkids' mom): They aren't really going to help us with hard parenting. You probably won't be able to rely on him to ever actually work with you in ways that should be basic. He probably won't ever implement joint rules, and he will probably take any concern you express about the kids as a criticism of himself.

When I met my now-DH and saw the situation with his ex, that was all pretty clear to me. However, I felt (and he felt) like he should try EVERYTHING to work with her. There are two benefits to this. One is that you can show the court how hard you tried to work it out. The other is that you can feel good about your efforts to coparent. And years down the line when he says you're a jerk for not being flexible with him, you can remind yourself that you tried your hardest and you know that trying to be flexible leads to bad outcomes. I would say, sure, send the email, but don't expect it to actually change anything. And this is important: Don't believe ANYTHING he says about how it's your fault, he isn't seeing the behaviors at his house, etc.

So maybe you can't work with him, not really. What you can do, as my therapist tells me, is work on making the kids more resilient. Keep your eyes on the prize, which is that in the very long term your kids will grow up to be healthy people who don't 1. repeat their dad's behaviors or 2. assume that everyone else is going to treat them like their dad does. Equip them with critical thinking skills so that they question everything to see if it makes sense. They will question you, yes, but they will also question how he does things. Set boundaries so that they can see that the manipulative, PDlike behaviors don't work. And find joy in spending time with them, so that they know they are worthy of being loved by a parent even when there are disagreements! Because you know a PD is not going to give them that self-worth.

When you go to finally settle the divorce, bear in mind that any agreement your ex can break, he will. Focus less on unenforceable provisions (right of first refusal is a particular bane of my existence) and more on the black and white things, like parenting time and child support.

I see why you are scared but there is a roadmap for success here. You've already seen how strong you can be by leaving. You are strong enough to implement positive parenting, to set a good on-PD role model for the kids, without any help or buy-in from their dad. It's all a matter of putting your energy where it matters (working with the kids directly) and not where you're spinning your wheels (trying to get your ex to stop doing terrible things.) There will be setbacks, but your goal here is the very long term, not the little skirmishes that PDs love to initiate.

Good luck, you can do this and I'm looking forward to hearing more from you on this board.

[PeanutButter]

Posted by: Penny Lane« on: Today at 12:17:33 PM

  So maybe you can't work with him, not really. What you can do, as my therapist tells me, is work on making the kids more resilient. Keep your eyes on the prize, which is that in the very long term your kids will grow up to be healthy people who don't 1. repeat their dad's behaviors or 2. assume that everyone else is going to treat them like their dad does. Equip them with critical thinking skills so that they question everything to see if it makes sense. They will question you, yes, but they will also question how he does things. Set boundaries so that they can see that the manipulative, PDlike behaviors don't work. And find joy in spending time with them, so that they know they are worthy of being loved by a parent even when there are disagreements! Because you know a PD is not going to give them that self-worth.
  When you go to finally settle the divorce, bear in mind that any agreement your ex can break, he will. Focus less on unenforceable provisions (right of first refusal is a particular bane of my existence) and more on the black and white things, like parenting time and child support.
  I see why you are scared but there is a roadmap for success here. You've already seen how strong you can be by leaving. You are strong enough to implement positive parenting, to set a good on-PD role model for the kids, without any help or buy-in from their dad. It's all a matter of putting your energy where it matters (working with the kids directly) and not where you're spinning your wheels (trying to get your ex to stop doing terrible things.)
  There will be setbacks, but your goal here is the very long term, not the little skirmishes that PDs love to initiate.

Excellent points!

[capybara]

Thank you all.This is really helpful. I did send the email and sure enough, stbxH responded saying he will not discuss the rules at his house and he will not attend any counselling sessions with me. And some frankly pretty patronizing and blaming stuff. So I am not going to waste any more time there. I do think he is setting me up to be the bad guy.

I regret sending the email laying out my child's problematic behaviour, but what's done is done.

I have ordered the book Overcoming ODD. Has anyone looked at it? Are there any good books for parenting defiant teens?

Right now I am trying to just focus on schoolwork. I am trying to do more with positive consequences and if one attempt fails and the kid doesn't do the behaviour I wanted, I will let it go and move on to the next try.

I have also let drop a couple of things he wanted to discuss (more time at his dad's, something else that I've forgotten), so I will bring those up again for him. I will try to do that when I need to cut off an argument as well.

If anyone has suggestions on getting a teen to spend positive time together (with me), please let me know.

[PeanutButter]

Has the therapist suggested anything specific to you that would help the child?

I found some helpful tips at https://www.innerchange.com/resources-for-parents

"Ask Yourself Three Questions

•What Is Really Going On:
As you talk with your teen, pay attention to his/her body language, tone of voice, eye contact, breathing, posture, etc. These are clues to what your teen is really feeling, regardless of what he/she is saying. Paying attention to these clues can help you decide what you need to do to help your teen. Trying to figure out what is really going on is more effective than wondering why this is happening .

•What Kind of Problem Is This:
Look for ways to identify the problem. Is it a safety issue? A problem at school or with friends? Is your teen depressed or abusing drugs or alcohol? Is he/she depressed or anxious? Identifying the problem will enable you to make decisions on how to proceed and if you can help. For example, you may decide to seek counseling for a depressed teen or medical help for a teen displaying worrisome physical symptoms.

•Whose Problem Is This:
As a parent, it's easy to want to fix your teen's problems yourself. Or perhaps you prefer to avoid them, hoping that time will ease the situation. Learning when you are responsible and when your teen needs to solve his/her own problems is tricky. However, as you ask yourself the two questions above, you'll get clarity on whether you should intervene and how you should help.

As you talk with your teen, keeping in mind these three questions, remember that lecturing, advice-giving, guilt trips, and yelling are ineffective. Instead, focus on being a good listener and accepting your teen's feelings as long as they are conveyed respectfully. Also, you will likely encounter your teen's reluctance to confide in you as you try to talk to him/her about important matters. Accepting that this is normal with teens can be helpful as you work through communication barriers. But using the skills listed above will help improve the quality of your conversations with your teen, even if it doesn't necessarily increase the quantity of those conversations."

"How to Deal With a Crisis

•Separate the person from the problem. Direct your teen's attention to the issue and away from him/herself or the other people involved.
•Focus on the problem.
•Do not imply that your teen is the problem. He/she may have problematic behaviors, but don't make it about who your teen is.
•Don't become defensive. Again, direct focus to the problem.
•Don't argue or try to reason. When your teen is upset, it's not the time to talk about responsibility or consequences. Often a person who is upset is unable to reason until he/she has calmed down.
•Acknowledge your teen's feelings in a non-threatening way. "I see why you are frustrated." "I know you had a good reason for saying that, what is it?"
•Avoid using the word "but" and replace it with the word"and". For example, "I understand you are angry, and at the same time breaking the dishes isn't an appropriate way to deal with your anger."
•Listen to your child and ask how you can help.
•Express support and concern.
•Avoid overreacting.
•Keep your voice calm.
•Offer options instead of trying to take control."

[Penny Lane]

One general parenting book I like is Parenting with Love and Logic. Another is How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk. Both have versions for teenagers.

Another set of books that I've relied heavily on is books about coparenting with a probable PD. My two favorite are Coparenting with a Toxic Ex and Don't Alienate the Kids! When things get more serious, Divorce Poison is really helpful at combating alienation although it's also scary to read.

We mix and match strategies from all of those books when we're not sure what to do with the kids.

By the way I took my own advice and when DSS was giving a very one sided account of the kids bickering, I asked, "what do you think your sister would say is going on here?" And sure enough he said pretty much what I would have said!

About quality time with teens, this is NOT my area of expertise, but can you meet him on his level? I'm thinking like, play video games. Watch a show he likes that you might not care for, and ask him for his opinion. What things is he an expert in? See if he'll show you those things and tell you what he likes about them. Teens looooooooove being the expert.

You're creating a new normal for how you relate to each other, and that can be a good thing! But it also can be a bit of a rough adjustment, so go easy on yourself and keep trying and showing up and loving him even if he acts like he doesn't need it.

Edited to add: I meant to say that he's definitely trying to make you into the bad guy. I think the more you can show the kids that you're unflappable about this, the less he will succeed. If they think that you're sensitive or willing to bend the rules if they say "well dad lets us..." then they will never let up. It's much better for kids to have certainty and boundaries at one house than at no houses. And look for ways that you can create good memories and special times, or even just normal times that are nice. They will learn that maybe they don't get unlimited screen time at your house but they do get unlimited love and lots of structure and room to grow. They probably won't say they appreciate it, but deep down they will know that it's good for them.