Collaborative settlement meeting soon, progress update

Started by Stillirise, June 12, 2020, 05:42:19 PM

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Stillirise

In two weeks, my stbx uPDh, myself, and both of our attorneys are supposed to sit down to try and reach a collaborative settlement agreement.   I have been watching videos, reading books, making notes, and organizing my documents.  I am trying to be pragmatic, and am trying to work through as much emotional stuff as I can beforehand, in private.   When we meet, I want to appear reasonable, calm, focused, confident, and knowledgeable about the facts at hand. Strangely, I also feel I should practice making him feel good about himself during the process, while maintaining my boundaries, as difficult as that may be.  He strikes like a rattlesnake when he feels threatened, or disrespected.  He thrives on feeling important, respected, and appreciated.  I hope to use that to my advantage as much as possible. 

I do not believe deep down that this meeting will be successful, as far as actually reaching an agreement.  However, I feel it will help me see his hand, and also maybe expose his true nature to others, if even just a little.  Hopefully, it will allow my attorney the chance to see what we are really up against.

He has been continuing to try and get in my head every chance he gets. Fortunately for me, he has sent me some pretty deranged sounding texts and emails, which I saved.  I also believe he is trying to hide assets. He hasn't yet realized that I am probing in that area.  I expect him to level up the smear, control, and manipulation tactics when he realizes that.

Some days, after he has belittled and disparaged me, I still feel small, afraid, and anxious. Other times, I feel confident and empowered, that because of some of his tactics, it has allowed me to claim the high ground.  I can now see his behaviors for the sad ploys that they are, even when they are hurtful.

I am remaining vigilant about my surroundings, but trying not to become paranoid.  He escalated to trying to wrestle my phone away from me, spraining my wrist, at one point since I filed for divorce, so I will not let my guard down.  I strive to maintain a personal distance of 6-10 feet at all times, and try to avoid in-person encounters when possible.

Above all, I worry about the children. I worry how they are managing when they are with him. I worry about what they feel when they hear him try to verbally tear me down, then see me shut him down and walk away.  I worry if I will be able to adequately stand up for their best interest. Mostly, I worry how this mess is affecting them overall, and in the years to come.

Thanks for following along, and as always, your wisdom and insight are welcome!
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

hhaw

Quote from: Stillirise on June 12, 2020, 05:42:19 PM
In two weeks, my stbx uPDh, myself, and both of our attorneys are supposed to sit down to try and reach a collaborative settlement agreement.   I have been watching videos, reading books, making notes, and organizing my documents.  I am trying to be pragmatic, and am trying to work through as much emotional stuff as I can beforehand, in private.   When we meet, I want to appear reasonable, calm, focused, confident, and knowledgeable about the facts at hand. Strangely, I also feel I should practice making him feel good about himself during the process, while maintaining my boundaries, as difficult as that may be.  He strikes like a rattlesnake when he feels threatened, or disrespected.  He thrives on feeling important, respected, and appreciated.  I hope to use that to my advantage as much as possible.  You have a good idea, I think.  Give your stbx space to BE the person he wants everyone to see.  Reasonable.... someone worth of respect and appreciation.  If he lets you down.... you'll be ready for it. 

You'll also have your list of things you MUST have.... your bottom line.  Things you won't and can't budge on.
Let the list be longer than it needs, so you have things to give in on.  Perhaps some things you know are important to him, so he feels he's WINNING when you hand them over.  Let it be super reasonable so your attorney and opposing counsel SEE you want to settle.  SEE you're striving to avoid court.

What you don't want to happen is for your counsel to feel you're forcing him to go to trial, bc of stupid things on your list he doesn't think you really need.  Our attorneys can and will punish us if they feel we're making them look bad, harming their egos, not doing what they tell us to do, or otherwise tick them off.  Sometimes appearing to be a whiny bitchy female is enough, so...... be aware of your tone.

More importantly, always always give just the facts, then allow the listeners to come to their own conclusions.  Don't ever tell an attorney what they MUST do, feel, think.  It's always a bad idea, IME, and being around the stbx PD can trigger us into a mindset where we forget the goal. 

Getting out of the divorce with economy of motion, time, expense and trauma. 

You seem like the kind of person who already pulled together their list of MUST HAVE items.  Wrap your mind around that, and be prepared to leave the settlement conference if the PD can't be at all reasonable.  IME, PDs are often pathologically unable to agree to anything.

BEFORE YOU GO TO THAT CONFERNCE, please ask your attorney to agree with opposing counsel to HAND WRITE ANY AGREEMENT, have it signed by all parties, get it stamped and filed RIGHT THEN AND THERE.

Do this BEFORE you say you have an Agreement, IME, bc the PD can jerk you around on the wording and details for weeks, while the attorneys get paid for "crafting" that Agreement the PD doesn't have to sign, even if you give him the stars and the moon.  Most of the time, the PDs change their minds and say they want to go to court anyway.  Like I said.... pathologically unable to agree to ANYTHING.  Not your fault.  Nothing you can do to change that.  Just be prepared, as you seem on track to be, and go with the flow.

IME, getting to the courtroom, and trial, IS THE QUICKEST WAY OUT OF COURT with a PD. 

Do not fear trial, but do your best to have the funds to fight that good fight.  I'll write it out again.  Wasting time thinking you have an Agreement, when you don't, often means you stop trial prep, and waste tens of thousands of dollars YOU NEED to try your case, IME. 

So, hand write any agreement BEFORE YOU CANCEL ANY COURT DATE!  Do not cancel a court date unless you have a filed and stamped copy of the AGREEMENT in your hand. 

Do not stop trial prep if you don't have a filed and stamped copy of the Agreement in your hand. 

Do not let your files fall into disarray.... stay on top of them, continue filing evidence, and guard it like you're going to depend on it in court, bc chances are... you will.  IME, of course. 



I do not believe deep down that this meeting will be successful, as far as actually reaching an agreement.  However, I feel it will help me see his hand, and also maybe expose his true nature to others, if even just a little.  Hopefully, it will allow my attorney the chance to see what we are really up against.   Oh,k chances are your PD will tip his hand, and show everyone what he's made of.  It's likely his own attorney has reported to your attorney what your PD is like. 

What you want to avoid is being identified as the only SANE, reasonable litigant in the room, with everyone leaning on you to give in on your short list of reasonable MUST HAVE items, that are more than fair.  Sometimes everyone will lean on the reasonable non, just to clear their plate of the nightmare case that IS your divorce, IME. 



He has been continuing to try and get in my head every chance he gets. Fortunately for me, he has sent me some pretty deranged sounding texts and emails, which I saved. ::Sigh::  And that's what yo have to continue doing, no matter what happens at the settlement conference UNLESS?  You get a handwritten, signed, stamped and filed COPY of the AGREEMENT in your hand. I can't stress this enough.
It can be the difference between a very long drawn out settlement process that costs you a lot, and doesn't do anything but demoralize you OR end this thing with economy of motion bc you got the parameters up front, kept your head, stayed calm, and walked away when being reasonable didn't work.  You dont' have the waste the entire day arguing IF you've set out a reasonable Agreement, IME.  Just make sure your attorney understands how willing and ready you are to settle. How reasonable;e you are... how much you want to get this over with too.  If your attorney identifies YOU as the reason he has to prepare this nightmare of a case, he might sabotage you.  You need him on your team.  Be very aware of caretaking his mental health, bc you might have to be the calm, consistent, level one in the room many times with your attorney.  Stay calm.

As my brother always says... your attorney is a tool.  You have to wield that tool.  Be in charge of yourself so you can control your attorney without appearing to control him.  He's your horse and you're going to have to ride him through a trial.  Feed him.  Pet him.  Saddle him up, and be prepared to ride. 

Having your files in order, where you can find EVERYTHING, is imperative. 

Your attorney might poo poo many things you feel are important.  Trust your gut.  Guard your evidence.
File it where yo can find it, bc sometimes at trial you'll have to pull those documents as the PD and his attorney say and do things.  You'll see your attorney's eyes light up in these moments, wishing he'd kept certain things you thought were important.  He'll admire you for handing those things to him, without judging him in any way.  At the end of this he'll know you always told the truth, and you deserved more respect and GOD please  let the PD tick him off so your attorney works harder for you than he normally works for any client.  I find the PDs always ticked off mhy attorneys, and it worked out better for me every time, so don't fret through this process.  SEE it as highs and lows..... you'll have both.  KNOW the cold light of a courtroom is your friend.  She with the best records tends to win, particularly if your PD can't control his emotions and YOU can. 
I also believe he is trying to hide assets. He hasn't yet realized that I am probing in that area.  I expect him to level up the smear, control, and manipulation tactics when he realizes that.  It;'s easier to get information when teh PD doesn't know where or how you're digging for it, IME.

Some days, after he has belittled and disparaged me, I still feel small, afraid, and anxious. Other times, I feel confident and empowered, that because of some of his tactics, it has allowed me to claim the high ground.  I can now see his behaviors for the sad ploys that they are, even when they are hurtful.   The more distance you have from the PD, the more centered you'll feel.  Breathe.  Deep and without distracgtion, when yo feel you need to ground yourself.  Don't think about the future... or fret about it.  Do what you can, which you seem to be doing, then put that story on the shelf and live your best life.

Worrying is a coping strategy that harms our health and mental wellbeing, IME.  Doing everything you can, then releasing expectation for outcome, is another coping strategy I wish I'd have mastered before I filed my divorce. 


I am remaining vigilant about my surroundings, but trying not to become paranoid.  He escalated to trying to wrestle my phone away from me, spraining my wrist, at one point since I filed for divorce, so I will not let my guard down. I hope you filed a police report and had him arrested for putting his hands on you.  You should file no matter what he does, IF he touches you in anger.  Even if it's just tossing the tv button too hard, which is advice given to me  by my second divorce attorney.  YOU MUST FILE A REPORT with the police or it doesn't count, and can't be shared iwth the court. 

Building your case around ONLY THAT WHICH YOU CAN PROVE is somethiong I wish I'd known about BEFORE I FILED.

IF you share all the crazy PD things your stbx does....... and you can't prove them, you'll likely appear as unhinged as him.  People might ask what you DID to MAKE him behave that way, bc it doesn't make sense. People need things to make sense, or to "square up" as the attorneys say.   You make sure your story squares up and make sure you can prove everything you allege. 
I strive to maintain a personal distance of 6-10 feet at all times, and try to avoid in-person encounters when possible.  Don't be afraid to have people with you when you hand kids off.  Have someone there to document.  Someone there to witness.
  Someone there to deal with the stbx, and keep you out of the emotional whirlpool, if you can, IME. 


Above all, I worry about the children. I worry how they are managing when they are with him. I worry about what they feel when they hear him try to verbally tear me down, then see me shut him down and walk away.  I worry if I will be able to adequately stand up for their best interest. Mostly, I worry how this mess is affecting them overall, and in the years to come.  And what does that worry get you?  Nothing. 

Being mindful, forming a good plan, and sticking to it..... THAT is being proactive, doing what you can, then spending time in joy with your children, as you can.  I hope you find many hours and minutes of joy with the, btw.  These years will fly by.  Do what you can to enjoy every bit of it, bc regret over losing this time is very difficult to deal with, IME.

Also, the worrying makes you less able to respond to your children.  Being responsive, instead of reactive, means you're making the best possible choices.

Divoring a PD means your children will be in harms way..... you can't change that.  What you can do is mitigate the harm, IME.  In fact, I'd say that's how to look at it.  Instead of suffering over NOT being able to stop the harm..... shift into acceptance of that fact, and doing what you can to limit it. 

A good trauma informed T is a good idea for you and the kids, IME.  The sooner the better under the circumstances.  One that practices EMDR, if possible.  I can't say enough about how the stress is reduced, focus is brought to the place it needs to be and stay.....you model good coping strategies for the kids, while they're learning them too.  THAT is mitigating harm, IME.  THAT is learning through the hard times, and making them into something to instruct and teach for a lifetime, rather than scar and harm and hamper, IME.   

Thanks for following along, and as always, your wisdom and insight are welcome!

You sound prepared, centered, and reasonable. 

You sound like you have realistic expectations.

Make sure you keep referring to the children's best interests at that settlement conference, so your attorney doesn't hone in on YOU as reason for the failed Agreement, should it fail.  It likely will, as you already know.

SO... child centered list of MUST HAVES.
Agree ahead of time to hand write out any AGREEMENT, sign, file and stamp a copy THAT DAY, before cancelling any court date. 
Stay focused on the kids.
Don't lose your cool.  Keep it short..... give only the hamburger, not the bun, condiments or veggies when speaking at the settlement conference.  Stay neutral.  NO SASS.  Appear as reasonable as you can, and don't let the PD trigger you. 
IF ANYONE SAYS SOMETHNG STUPID AT THE CONFERENCE, don't get angry or reactive.  Instead, treat it as an opportunity to educate the people in the room. Speak as though you're addressing young children.  That will help you stay calm, and keep things simple, IME.  Practice talking about the emotional things.  Practice in the mirror.  Think.... pre school teacher, and try to make speaking like that a habit.  Chances are you'll need it for Court, and I promise...  you'll find you appear helpful and overtly competent if you manage to stay in that mode, IME. 

Lastly, always always speak about your stbx pd with compassion.  No matter what he says or does... remember he has a mental disorder, which you won't talk about!  You'll simply state the fact YOU CAN PROVE, and you'll know a trial is your friend, and likely the quickest way out of this.  Do not fear trial. 

You're going to be fine, and so will your kiddos.  With a parent like you...... they'll have enoug stability to get them through and beyond this.

Good luck, 

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

Stillirise

Hhaw,
Thank you again for your wisdom.  I have a relatively short list of "must-haves," and up to now he has been completely against them. That's why I think it will seem like all is going well, until we get down to my line vs. his on these things. Then, I think the wheels will come off.  I do like your idea of appearing to be able to give on other things, even if I never planned to argue for them.  If I only have 2 items I'm set on, and refuse to budge, he can portray me as giving up nothing—even after being passive about everything else.

My attorney is a woman. She seems very pragmatic, no-nonsense, and unemotional.  At first I thought I didn't click with her, but it may be because she doesn't have the soft edge I likely preconceived.  You're right, she doesn't want to go to trial, but I also believe the opposing attorney dislikes trial even more so, based on reputation.

The smear campaign is really ratcheting up.  Since he knows we are heading for this conference, he wants me as unsettled as possible. He is portraying the last 20 years as his personal hell with me.  He also now seems overly concerned with my mental health, and getting me the help I so desperately need. My only reply to that has been if it's been so bad, why did he wait 20 years for me to file?  It is hard to hear, and to know people believe such crazy mischaracterizations, but I'm soldiering on. Eye on the prize.

I'm also relying on his smug sense of being right, being a bully, and him believing he always has the upper hand.  He keeps saying he wants to sit down in a public place and try and talk this out before the meeting. Absolutely no.  He knows where the sticking points are.  There's no way I'm showing him my negotiating plans in advance.  He will likely be unprepared to negotiate based on current facts—not emotion and years of drama, and with other people in the room, one of whom is being paid to take my side. 

I reported his physical assault episode to the police, my attorney, and my family doctor. As luck would have it, I already had an appointment scheduled for a routine check-up the following morning. My wrist was still visibly swollen, and my BP was significantly elevated.  He documented, and had me back in 2 weeks, for a wellbeing check.   I didn't file a protection order yet, simply because he is so highly concerned with his image, that the threat of something like that being public may help keep him in check.  He may feel he has nothing else to lose once an order  is in place.  My attorney called his, who reeled him in. He since moved about 45 min away, so that has cut down on my anxiety around him dropping by unannounced, to harass me.  I do feel like I have good support and people looking out for me. Several years ago, there was a prominent case in our area, of a mother disappearing. It turned out her estranged husband murdered her.  A few close friends and family suspected him all along. Others that knew him were "shocked" he could be capable of such a thing.  More than one friend has said to me recently, please be careful, and reach out. I don't want you to become the next "that mom!"  That got my attention. I also realized people are seeing more of this than I ever imagined they were.

The children are doing well, considering. They do have a therapist, who has seen them together and individually.  So far, I am pleased with her methods.  For me, I don't particularly like my current therapist. I'm on the hunt for someone else, but in the meantime, she isn't making things worse and is occasionally helpful.  There is only one EMDR practitioner in our area.  xPDh saw her for his anxiety and claustrophobia (both of which were exacerbated shortly after I learned some boundaries, and started using MC and GR last year.)  I'm not sure I want to go to her!

Thank you for this thread. I will be referencing it daily during prep, and probably use parts for reference during the conference, to help me stay centered! 
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou

GettingOOTF

My ex was also overly concerned with my mental health and me getting the help I needed. He also lived through hell with me. This really ramped up anytime I made any moves to leave.

I think it's part fear on their side that they will be exposed and part that they don't want to lose control over you so they paint you as unstable and try to get you to believe them.

Looking back I see my ex accused me of a lot of things that he was worried about himself. One of his big ones was how uncomfortable I made people, I just didn't see it myself. I really needed to work on that. I was the reason we had no friends.  Turns out this was all him. People said to me after I left that he made them uncomfortable. And I have no issues meeting people. In fact in social situations people go out do their way to introduce themselves to me.

He's trying to knock you off balance. Keep your eye on the prize. Sooner or later the truth comes out. By the time the truth started coming out about my ex I no longer cared. You seem to have a solid plan and a realistic view of how he will behave. Hang in there, you've got this.

Stillirise

You are so right about that, GettingOOTF. I have an email thread saved, where he sent several messages in succession, some quite nutty sounding. I didn’t reply to them at all, as they did not pertain to the kids or settlement. The final one he sent that night was a plea for me to seek help for my anxiety, and other issues, and advice on what meds I should take.  It was like he was actually replying to himself at that point.

Thank you for your support and encouragement!
Quote from: GettingOOTF on June 16, 2020, 12:41:07 PM
My ex was also overly concerned with my mental health and me getting the help I needed. He also lived through hell with me. This really ramped up anytime I made any moves to leave.

I think it’s part fear on their side that they will be exposed and part that they don’t want to lose control over you so they paint you as unstable and try to get you to believe them.

Looking back I see my ex accused me of a lot of things that he was worried about himself. One of his big ones was how uncomfortable I made people, I just didn’t see it myself. I really needed to work on that. I was the reason we had no friends.  Turns out this was all him. People said to me after I left that he made them uncomfortable. And I have no issues meeting people. In fact in social situations people go out do their way to introduce themselves to me.

He’s trying to knock you off balance. Keep your eye on the prize. Sooner or later the truth comes out. By the time the truth started coming out about my ex I no longer cared. You seem to have a solid plan and a realistic view of how he will behave. Hang in there, you’ve got this.
You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.
—Maya Angelou