Discerning no contact with daughter

[Flowerchild]

Hi,

I am desparately needing to talk to someone about my daughter. We have two other younger children 20 and 17. Homeschooling christian home.


She is 22 now but started abusing me when she was around 14. Before this, we had always been very close. It seems to have developed around her puberty hormonal shifts.


I kept silent, trying to deal with it alone. 

My husband was passive to an extreme degree.


At the time my daughter started being verbally and physically abusive to me, she was well respected in homeschooling and church circles. I was so conflicted as to what to do. I was afraid to take her to mental heathcare because, if she was just going through "a phase", like i was prone to think, i didn't want a mental health diagnosis to follow her negatively the rest of her life. I was afraid to tell anyone also, because, i ended up finding out that she was projecting her abuse onto me, by lying and telling others that I was abusing her. I had one horrible experience with a counselor that I sought help from early on, who ended up feeling like she had to believe my daughter. It was awful. 


Please believe me when i say i was not the abuser. I never even spanked any of my kids. Nor did I ever hit her back in her attacks on me. My younger kids can testify to this. They have been deeply effected by their sister's issues.


Her abuse got exposed because my son, who was 13 i think at the time, ended up going to our youth Pastor at church to confide in him what his sister was doing to me. He then met privately with me. 


She has seemed to be attempting to ruin me. It seems this all began because she couldn't face herself so she had to project the very things she was doing onto me.  She has compromised my reputation in our church and community. This is the least of my worries though. I mean that, as, through all this, my biggest concern was how my younger kids, grew scared that my daughters stories that escalated in gravity, might compromise their life with me...if she told the wrong person her extreme lies. Her lies grew more extreme because she moved far away for 2 years to work where she met new people who didn't know me, to tell lies to. The more she was believed, the worse her stories became.

My other two kids and I have sought counseling but now, they just to get on with life away from her drama. Which is why NC may be the only way.


I have tried to extend love and grace to her throughout. I feel sorry for her.


She projects an extremely Godly external image all over social media. Quoting Bible verses etc. Which makes her more dangerous. 


Her siblings and I are connected to her on social media.


She has lived away from me for over a year. 


She announced she is getting married. A young man she has been dating two years. I met him once. He and his parents and everyone in her life there, believe her lies about me. Extreme lies that make me seem like a monster really. They know nothing of our history with her. 


I am wondering if my youngest and I should go to wedding then go NC?  I am also wondering if I, or other friends who know us well and her well, and know the truth, should reach out to her fiance and the Pastor marrying them? She told my younger 17 year old daughter, that she has been going to counseling to deal with all of her "mother's abuse"!!! Sadly, any counsel she is receiving, will do more harm than good, if the counselor does not know the truth.


The marriage, i am afraid is going to be built on a foundation of lies. 


A friend suggested the letters.


Please let me know if there is a safe place to get help for this type of issue. 

Thank you.


Sincerely,
FC

[Starboard Song]

Flowerchild,

Again, Welcome to Out of the FOG. I am so sorry.

Your narrative is heartbreaking. If she were to smear you in your own community, I'd want to counter that. But her smears to stangers, I suspect, are best left alone. That is reaching out into her world, and is unlikely to succeed.

I believe your course needs to be based on what you need for some peace of mind. Only go NC if you believe you can truly let go. Otherwise, periodic communications and a threadbare connection may help you to feel you are still trying. Still available if her heart is ever ready. If your daughter ever asks you to stop communication, I'd encourage you to respect that.

Your strong and moral family is plainly very important to you. For that reason, I encourage you to consider that you do have one very safe place to go and to consider your options: your other children. It sounds like the other siblings saw reality and understood it. Rallying them and seeing what they think would be a great place to start. Each member may choose a different course, but you should all hear and understand and advise one another.

Disagreements over going/not-going NC can cause collateral damage that you do not need.


To reply to others, it is easiest to just hit REPLY at the very end of the thread, and address them: "Thanks, _________. That helps." If you want to begin a post with a quote of another member, press the quote button on the right, at the top of that individual post. It quotes the whole thing, and you can add your commentary below the quote. You may also shorten the quote just by deleting everything except the sentence or paragraph that you want to highlight.

[hhaw]

Flowerchild:

I'm glad you found this forum.  There are so many wise people with experience and lessons to share with you.

I don't have any answers for you, I'm afraid.  All I can tell you is to take some deep breaths....
accept you can't change your dd's story, mind, or experiences.  You can't know WHY she's doing this to you. 

All you can do is take care of yourself, your responses to your dd, your younger children and your life. 

That's it.

Once you wrap your mind around that, things get less confusing, IME.

Whether your dd had a bad dream and internalized it as real..... got upset with you, bc she thinks you love the younger sibs more...... had a pscyhotic breakdown or chemical imbalance..... you can't control or fix it.   She's a grown up now.  She'll have to fix it herself, if she chooses to. 

You can't change the way other people view you.  Your dd will poison the well with the new In Laws.  I'm sorry about that, but it's true.  No amount of struggling, suffering, and thinking about it will change it.  It's better to do what you can do..... take care of your church family, your family and those people who KNOW the truth. 

Stop suffering over things you have no control over.  Just... stop.

Lean on them the people who know the truth.  Feel their support and acceptance of the truth.  Any energy wasted on convincing those who won't be convinced is just plain wasted, is demoralizing, and honestly can make you appear unstable, which is so so unfair in the circumstances.

I have a question... were you invited to the wedding?  If not, it seems logical you wouldn't go. 

I'd write a long letter out to DD about how you feel... scream those words onto the page.  Read it, then write it out again until you come to the calm still space inside where there's no more confusion.  No more chaos.  I wouldn't SEND any letters, mind you.  Just get it all out, into the open and SEE what's there.  Notice what comes up for you internally.  Pain or pressure in your body?  Where is it:?  Put your hands on it.  Name it.  Give it a number 1 to 10.  Breathe slowly into it.  Breathe space around it.  Check it.  Is it improving?  Continue breathing into it. I picture breathing pink cotton candy around mine... and it always helps. 

If I can't sit still and breathe, bc I'm so upset, I push on door jumbs while breathing mindfully.  After that, I'm calm enough to sit and breathe.  You're working on changing your biochemistry and gaining access to the part of your logical, problem solving, creative brain again.  When you're upset, you're stuck in your emotional limbic system or primitive fight or flight lizard brain.  You CANNOT think your way out of that biochemical hijack, IME.  Breathing.... slowly... filling your lungs from the bottom to the top like a vase, can restore access to your higher brain.  YOU NEED YOUR HIGHER BRAIN right now. 

You're a good mom.  You have many years to parent.  You're going to need to put up good strong healthy boundaries to keep your oldest dd from harming you and your family again, IME. 

Again, I don't think I'd SEND any letters.  Your dd sounds angry and she'd likely use anything you send against you... somehow.   I'd certainly get second opinions from people I trust... your pastor.... a good friend. 

Extending love and acceptance of your oldest dd doesn't mean you accept her false narrative.  It means you love your grown child, as a human being, but have problems with some of her behaviors.  Bullying you.  Slandering you.  Impacting the lives of her younger siblings.  These are all things you can't abide in your life, and if she can't stop doing that, you can't be a part of her life.  That's pretty simple, IMO.

This is part of necessary self-care.  This is protecting your younger children, and modeling self care a n d healthy boundaries for them.  They NEED these habits and skills. 

This is not excluding  your oldest dd forever.  This is setting a necessary a boundary, and if your dd honors it you'll welcome her back with open arms.  You're a reasonable woman with love in your heart.  Of course you'd relate to your oldest dd if she wasn't creating conflict and distress for you and your FOO.

Holding boundaries = taking care of and honoring yourself.  It doesn't mean you stop loving. 

And breathe, Flowerchild.  Get yourself in the healthiest possible space bc it makes you more responsive to your loved ones. 
Able   
to     
respond. 

Sit with the sadness and breathe through it.  Pay attention to it.  Perhaps get your own trauma-informed T, who uses EMDR, and hook yourself and kids up.   This will help SO much.  I can't stress that enough.  Perhaps, at some point, your oldset dd can see that T WITH you.  Maybe not. 

I don't understand where your husband is on all this.  I wonder why he's so passive, honestly. 

In the meantime..... really look your kids in the eye..... be present with them, seek joy all around you..... they'll be grown before you know it, so keep your head where your feet out and stay out of other people's heads (SOOOPH.)  You don't have to know why dd is doing what she's doing.  Release that need, if you can.  You'll suffer less.  You'lle experience more joy.   

Oldest dd is where she's supposed to be, on her own journey.  Tust she'll be OK, and turn back to your life right here, right now.  The sights and sounds around you.  The simple tasks.  The shapes and smells..... they'll bring you peace, even if things don't seem OK...
they're OK.

Lastly, hold yourself with tsunamis of self compassion, and nonjudgmental focused attention.  Don't think of anything as bad or good... .just be very curious about whatever comes up for you.  Contemplate, rather than judge.

Good luck,

[Flowerchild]

Thank you for the replies.  I figured out why I couldn't reply!  I wasn't logged in!!!!

hhaw, yes, I was invited to the wedding.  Most likely because my oldest daughter probably knows that her siblings would most likely not go to wedding if I wasn't invited.  Not sure.

I have discovered that the thing that is happening to me is that I have become the scapegoat for the members of our family who are needing to avoid the consequences of their own issues. 
You asked why my husband is passive...we are separated.  In 2014,(after 21 years of marriage), it was discovered that he had been hiding an extensive addiction to sex/pornography, voyeurism and lust.  I always knew there were big issues but could never understand until he was caught.  We were caretakers of a christian retreat center for most of the kids formative years, 8 years.  He was fired and escorted off property as a result of what he was caught doing.  However, my oldest daughter began her lies and things with me about 2 years prior to this all coming out about her dad.  I do believe, however, that the dynamics in the home caused by the lying and gaslighting my husband did, caused confusion in my oldest daughter. 
The passivity was part of the way he checked out emotionally from the family as a symptom of his addiction and abuses. 
He was never passive however when it came to anything he was confronted about, regarding strange behaviors anyone would notice throughout the years, that, if we confronted him, he would rage and get physically aggressive.  If it was me, he would insist that I was the problem and that I was paranoid or crazy. He would never allow me to talk to him in private about issues in our relationship and would involve the children in any conflict that began between us.  I know this did damage to our precious children.  Because he was so secretive and deceptive, and charming and deceived so many in our community, I could never know what was at the root of this dynamic, so I could never feel confident to leave him.
The day he was caught, was a great grace for me.  Afterwards, he went to a christian men's retreat for sex addiction and gave me a "full disclosure".  I was to learn of an entire secret life he had hidden from me prior to marriage...28 years in fact before we were married.  He had lied about who he was...to himself, to God, to me, to others.
Anyway, my most tragic heart break in all of this is the loss of my closeness with my oldest daughter and the chaos her slandering had brought.
She is now elevating her dad up to heroic standards, as I serve both of them best as their scapegoat. Everyone at the wedding will be people who believe her narrative, that she has been a victim of a monstrous mother.  It is surreal.  No one on this forum knows me.  But if you did, and could see a video of my life as a mother to my kids, you might understand how unbelievable this all is.  Not only was I not abusive at all, I was very loving and sacrificial.  I was even required to do alot of things resourcefully in order to provide for them.  Because, in my separated husband's full disclosure, he confessed that he had been lying about other jobs he had had throughout our marriage and hiding money from the family.  There were times of grave financial hardships when I would barter for things for the kids and find ways to volunteer for things so that my kids could have what they needed. 
I realize now, that all the abuse they witnessed was abuse toward them.  But I had no way of knowing what I needed to know in order to leave the marriage.  If I had it all to do over, I would have left my husband when the kids were little, when I knew that the home was not normal.  The gaslighting and lying and abuse, ended up eroding my self confidence in this awareness.
My daughter has invited her dad to arrive a couple days early for the wedding and to stay at her fiance's house as somewhat of a "guest of honor".  It will take all the grace and self confidence for me to show up and just smile and take it all in.
It is naive to think that, by showing up and being loving and graceful, that somehow people will see the real me.  Anything good about me, my oldest daughter claims is fake.
There is an article I found online called  "The Blameless Burden:  Scapegoating in Dysfunctional Families, that has helped me understand what is happening if anyone else on here has been scapegoated too.
Anyway, i appreciate feedback.

Peace.
FC

[notrightinthehead]

Welcome Flowerchild. In your place - I would not go. I would expect the whole thing to be excruciatingly painful for me, I would feel inscecure and would expect to be treated badly. In order to protect myself from the pain I would avoid the situation.  I would however, allow the children to go, if they wanted. In fact, I probably would encourage them to go. And I would find an excuse why I can't come, something about work or health issues, something inconspicuous. I am not saying that you should do that, just that this is how I try to protect myself from harm.

BTW have you read Townsend and Cloud 'Boundaries with kids' - you might find that helpful.

[momnthefog]

FC,

I'm so sorry for the pain you've experienced.  In your marriage and with your adult daughter.

I am divorced as well and wish it had happened years earlier so as to have shielded the children better.  My divorce is now 10+ in the past and my children have largely healed but the scar tissue remains.

I have also dealt with an AC who is dx with BPD.  I have had my name and family tarnished in church and on social media.  Despite not having any contact with me...when things don't go her way in life she send anonymous text with a screen shot of her latest rail against me.  Even my best efforts to be out of her life, result in her raging against me and trashing me to anyone who will give her a platform. 

As my non-PD kids have grown they have come to understand the reason for divorce and forgiveness.  They also have come to clearly understand their BPD-sister and her role in the family dynamics.  All of them chose to have no contact with her.  I believe your 20 and 17 yo are at an age where they understand normal and abnormal behavior.  Do they want to attend the wedding?  Or do they feel obligated to attend?   Learning to discern between a desire to participate and an obligation to participate could be a good lesson (for me as well).

Please keep us posted on your decision...and welcome!

Hugs,

momnthefog

[bloomie]

Hi Flower Child - welcome to Out of the FOG. I am really thankful you have reached out for support. You are faced with a no win decision with so many things with a child whose behaviors have been toxic for you and your other children. It is heartbreaking to face such serious character issues in an adult child.

I sit here reading just a snapshot of your experiences and so admittedly I do not know much, but it seems that there is a great deal of displaced rage heaped upon you and you are being scapegoated by your daughter. The false religious image building and systematic destruction of your own reputation while idolizing her father who has morally failed you all and many others who trusted him, reeks of deep issues that it will take a savvy therapist and a team around your daughter to unpack and work through when and if your daughter is ever willing to open up to someone - and who knows when or if that will be?

I guess what I am trying to say gently is that she is the only one who can work through whatever it is that is driving this terrible smear campaign and inciting this rejection of you. Because that is the crux isn't it? How to go forward in light of the inexplicable rejection of you, a trustworthy and loving parent who has stood by her in spite of her poor treatment. That has to hurt so very deeply and I am just so sorry this is happening.

I can't tell you if you should go to her wedding, but if you are planning to go NC something to think through is that it is most loving and kind to send clear and consistent messages in our words and choices. If you are not planning to be a part of her life afterward then attending a celebration and bearing witness to her vows may be confusing for you both.

The other side of the thought could be that you have done nothing wrong and have been invited. So, going and being your lovely self may give may be the best choice for you and represent that you are standing tall in the center of your life, unbowed down by her false accusations, and taking your rightful place and taking the opportunity of representing yourself to her in law family. 

I want to recommend a resource that may be timely... a book entitled: When to Walk Away, Finding Freedom From Toxic People, by Gary Thomas

This book was especially eye opening for me and is written from a faith based perspective and I cannot recommend it more for the tough situation you are facing.

When a relationship has fractured to this point with a high conflict, oppositional family member it becomes about doing what would bring you the most peace of mind. And we are here to support you as you go forward.

Keep coming back! It helps lift a heavy heart!

[PeanutButter]

FC,
I am deeply sorry!

I was brought up in a home with ubpdM and an enF.

Your second post and link to the article really reminded me that I have experience with this or at least very similar type of scapegoating although when I reacted (which was wrong) to your first post (this thread) with a comment I hadn't realized it. 

My enF became the scapegoat of my ubpdM, uhpdS, S and B. I didnt participate in this or believe any of the things they said about my enF. I was invisible/scapegoat child so it could be that I was left out of it to some extent. So at an early age I recognised the hypocrisy between ubpdM's narrative and what I was witnessing.

  My ubpdM was abusive emotionally, verbally, and physically to everyone in my FOO. She waged an alienation campaign against my enF to us (children) while remaining married to him. He very likely didnt know this was happening. My uhpdS hated him from as far back as I remember. As a teen she started acting out towards him making her feelings known.

UbpdM actually told many people that he was the one that was abusive. It was not true! This included clergy and people in her church. It was originally their (M and F) church but my enF stopped going. I dont know why.

Fast forward to when my uhpdS and I were now young adults, she sounded exactly like my ubpdM when she spoke of enF. It's a complete revision of history that she tells. A history that I saw with my own eyes and lived through so I knew its ubpdM's script. I tried to ask questions, reason with her, and discuss the descrepencies with what I remembered which enraged her. She denied, deflected, and then darvo'd. Then she started gaslighting me. I had to ask her to leave my house.

I would not discuss the subject with her after that because in my perspective she has a distorted view of both our ubpdM and enF. She parrots my ubpdM's lies about my enF. She doesnt aknowledge any of the things my ubpdM actually did.

My younger S and B dont think quite as badly of him as uhpdS but they also don't have much respect for him either. None of my sibs acknowledge the dysfunction and abuse that we all experienced from ubpdM.

IMO I can see how one of the purposes of making my enF 'the bad guy' distracted everyone from the true issues that existed in our dysfunctional family.

Also when outsiders recognised something just wasn't right, it was an explanation that could be used to cover the truth.

My enF was passive, slow to anger, and forgiving. He was probably the perfect scapegoat at the time it all started.

But he didnt cause it to happen.

Again I am very sorry.