Vulnerable to Certain PD Behaviors

[bloomie]

I recently have begun resetting some boundaries in a decade's long friendship and in that emotional drama-bound process, I am noticing that I am particularly susceptible to people who have histrionic traits.

Even though I know I cannot trust a single word that drips like honey from this friend's lips I have to check myself from leaning forward and being drawn in and believing her as she takes center stage once again.

I have to remind myself that the persona that she would never hurt a soul is not real. That the manipulating and monopolizing, the shallowness, and seeming inability to listen and engage when not the center of attention is a problem that actually does hurt the people who love her.

So much of any interaction is an illusion and sleight of hand with one aim. To get what she wants by the power of her words and personality. And it works much of the time.

I don't like this vulnerability in myself and want to understand it better. All of the work coming Out of the FOG and I realize that I will need to continue working on these pockets of vulnerability.

Anyone else recognize certain PD traits that sneak through your defenses more easily? Are you willing to share those traits and how have you equipped yourself better to be more impervious to them?

[LemonLime]

Good topic Bloomie!  Just off the top of my head:
1)  Guilt.  I apparently am guilt-ridden, because it's easy for PD's and anyone else to cause me to spend hours analyzing a situation trying to ascertain whether I did something wrong or not.  If they accuse me or even hint that I did something that was rude or careless, I immediately respond with terrible guilt and then spend tons of time sorting out whether I'm a bad person or not.
2) Hoovering.   I find it very hard to be cool or unfriendly in the face of someone complimenting me or giving me a gift.   Even if their attention makes me very uncomfortable and I feel they aren't being totally sincere.   I was just raised not to be rude.
3)  Playing the victim.   I've always been a "helper" and I made that worse by entering the healthcare profession.   So if someone is telling me they are hurt, I'm trained to listen to their story.

I'm a novice at this, but I am beginning to get better at Labeling.    Labeling their strategies.  Fear, obligation, guilt, distraction, deflection, projection, gaslighting, hoovering, etc.    Almost like a correcting an English paper with a red pen, I objectively look at their behavior, circle it, and label it.    Looking at the patterns.    It helps a lot and also can be surprisingly entertaining.    Hope that helps.

[bloomie]

Thank you Kat! That does help. I like your idea of recognizing patterns in the moment - or labeling strategies.

Apparently I am vulnerable to someone who appears to be vulnerable or hurting in some way and someone who is able to show warmth. 

And yes, the self doubt and questioning you mention. I am getting much more able to show compassion and kindness to myself, but that is still a trigger for me at times.

I also still struggle with first believing people who have a history of exaggeration, manipulative speech, and out and out story telling when it is done with such confidence and skill of an accomplished verbal manipulator. It is often a few beats later that I think.... hmmm... I wonder if that is even true or what was actually said or done? And belatedly find myself ratcheting back my engagement.

I just am so awkward with the crafty manipulator types. I confuse myself sometimes. If that makes any sense whatsoever. 

[SparkStillLit]

I'm vulnerable to people with a sob story, and like Kat, I'm the  "helper" made a zillion times worse by spending a zillion years in healthcare!
I will also immediately take the blame, even if it's not mine.
I'm working very hard on my stuff and other people's stuff, and on setting and holding boundaries of what I will and will not take on. I'm not the dump. No offloading all your garbage here.
I'll tell you a thing. I made a mistake at work. It could have turned out horribly. It didn't. In a meeting my boss said "we're human. These things happen. But seriously, if you're just done, or if you can't do reviews for some reason, but you need to be here (I for example was having migraines every other day and trying to work through them), just read a trade magazine, or do something light inside your capacity. Don't push. Honestly. Some days we just aren't at full capacity."
I thought....what a lovely person.

[SparkStillLit]

I could never tell h that story, he'd freak right out. First at the mistake, then at the fact that my boss knew I was working with migraines, (actually she found out after the fact and was like TELL ME THESE THINGS!!!!), then he'd flip about what MIGHT have happened but didn't, then he'd bug me about never letting this happen again....
And the lovely bit about my boss would be totally lost in the mess.

[notrightinthehead]

I have become a hermit in the recent months, it feels like I don't do people anymore, but when I was still trying to make friends the trait I am most vulnerable to is the narcissistic self confidence. People  who have strong opinions, express them loudly with great conviction, speak up and speak out - somehow I admire that and am drawn to it. I feel secure because they seem to know it all and better than me.  After a while I find out that they tend to be prejudiced and their judgement is often harsh and premature, not well thought out and measured,  that cools off my admiration for them, and I fade away. I don't seem to be very good at fading, as this has sometimes lead to anger and confrontation by the other party.

[Hopeful Spine]

I am right there with you when you are talking about resetting boundaries with these sorts of people that are already in our lives.  Since fighting my way Out of the FOG I have some family members who always seem to catch me in their web.  They play me and then move on after I've pumped them up.  I'm slowly realizing that a relationship (a true relationship) with these people are not possible.  I'm tempted.  Oh so tempted because each time it seems different.  Like we MIGHT be growing closer.  And I really want that closeness with people.  So I've put up with crap behavior.  I'd reason that they are nice people who have moments of ugliness.  I'd want to be compassionate and helpful.

The truth is - they are ugly people who have moments of niceness.  Usually when there is something for them to gain.

So now I grey rock as needed.  Friendly, a bit of tsk tsk-ing, and then I escape.  I cannot successfully rebuild these relationship with boundaries.  Instead I endure the existing relationship by my own rules. 

I remained troubled by those relationship but I find that since coming Out of the FOG I'm more careful of new friendships.  For instance, there is a local business woman that I admire.  She's done amazing things with her company and I'm in awe of her confidence.  HOWEVER - I don't respect the content she put out on videos.  She's very arrogant and "queen bee"ish.  I might just be a bit jealous but overall - I roll my eyes at her social media because it just too PDish.  Prior to my transformation we had loose plans to grab coffee and I really wanted to connect with her more.  I imagined all the ways we'd collaborate and how awesome it would be.  It never happened and I'm glad.  Because now I can't imagine how I'd get through 20 minutes of chatting with her.

I'm not emotionally invested in this woman but I don't like her.  This sounds cold and uncaring and at one time in my life I'd never admit that.  I'd even actively pursued a friendship with her because I'd think it would challenge and better me.  And I'd reason that I'd be good for her too.  And even typing all this I'm realizing how PD "I" sound.  Yikes!  Glad I'm on these boards trying to fix myself!

Today I find I can admire her life choices (she's really built her life into something special) but realize that she's not a good person for me.  I would not be a good person for her.  Even if she called me tomorrow and schmoozed me - I'd say no.  Politely.

[Boat Babe]

Good question Bloomie. A good exercise which we night all benefit from.  Our lists will all be pretty similar I wager!

So, off the top of my head, I'm vulnerable to charm, to someone giving me their whole attention (which I didn't get from mum) who really listens to me (or appears to). To someone who looks cool, edgy. To people with substance use issues (gulp).

Well, I'm glad I use a pseudonym. I clearly have work to do.

[SparkStillLit]

BOAT BABE omg that's one, gosh, the poor people who give me their full attention/listen to me!!!!!!! Neither my FOO (except my grandmother) nor my updh does, so YIKES!!! If some poor soul unwittingly does it now, the dam breaks. If they are ill intended, well...  .

[bloomie]

I'm vulnerable to people with a sob story, and like Kat, I'm the  "helper" made a zillion times worse by spending a zillion years in healthcare!
I will also immediately take the blame, even if it's not mine.
I'm working very hard on my stuff and other people's stuff, and on setting and holding boundaries of what I will and will not take on. I'm not the dump. No offloading all your garbage here.
I'll tell you a thing. I made a mistake at work. It could have turned out horribly. It didn't. In a meeting my boss said "we're human. These things happen. But seriously, if you're just done, or if you can't do reviews for some reason, but you need to be here (I for example was having migraines every other day and trying to work through them), just read a trade magazine, or do something light inside your capacity. Don't push. Honestly. Some days we just aren't at full capacity."
I thought....what a lovely person.

Wow! I wonder how many of us are in the helping or healing professions... your boss sounds like a gem who has a compassionate view of others.

Love the image that pops up in my mind of a big sign that reads: "No offloading all your garbage here. "

[bloomie]

I have become a hermit in the recent months, it feels like I don't do people anymore, but when I was still trying to make friends the trait I am most vulnerable to is the narcissistic self confidence. People  who have strong opinions, express them loudly with great conviction, speak up and speak out - somehow I admire that and am drawn to it. I feel secure because they seem to know it all and better than me.  After a while I find out that they tend to be prejudiced and their judgement is often harsh and premature, not well thought out and measured,  that cools off my admiration for them, and I fade away. I don't seem to be very good at fading, as this has sometimes lead to anger and confrontation by the other party.

I am wondering if, for the first time, I have just a consistent starting gate position of much less tolerance for PD behaviors in general and am so much more content with a small, sincere, reasonably healthy close circle. And that may look like a bit like I'm more introverted and I am okay with that. Do you find this is true of you as well?

I have found with the large and in charge type of N, is very hard to fade away from gracefully. With one similar friend, the relationship was going to end or continue on her terms as she was extremely reactionary to even a whiff of change in her dominance of the relationship and my availability. It was a pretty painful ending and she stills pops into my life at random from time to time and then discards abruptly.

[SonofThunder]

For me, one of the hardships is the very fine line of balancing myself (51% rule) and my actions/reactions in normal helpfulness of the chosens and unchosens in my life,  yet recognizing PD behaviors in relationship to my helpfulness with others who are uPD's and not letting myself get taken advantage of.

I have two main uPD's in my life: my wife and my father.   Both know I am a helpful and caring person when 'true assistance' is needed.  I'm a believer that if a person can do something themselves, they should and be left to do so.  But, when a person in my circles truly needs some assistance and I am an available person and qualified, I will typically assist. 

With regard to my father: if he needs assistance because he is and old man (81) and his age prevents him from doing a necessary thing, I am willing to help.  If it's an unnecessary thing, or he can still do it in his own, then I do not help.  I treat my wife the same way.   But, both of them know my boundary line with this and purposefully put me in a thin-line boundary decision very often.  They will purposefully put themselves in an unnecessary predicament and then call on me for quick assistance, imho, to test my boundary line.  When I don't respond, and can easily do so, I get PD reactions including anger, blame, criticism and silent treatment following.  If I do help out (not sticking to my boundary) I find myself in these positions with them even more frequently. 

PD's are masters at pushing right up against boundary lines, creating no-win situations for non's and maximizing guilt/tough decisions based on societal norms, such as assisting the elderly and conservative gentleman norms regarding a female. 

SoT

[bloomie]

I am right there with you when you are talking about resetting boundaries with these sorts of people that are already in our lives.  Since fighting my way Out of the FOG I have some family members who always seem to catch me in their web.  They play me and then move on after I've pumped them up.  I'm slowly realizing that a relationship (a true relationship) with these people are not possible.  I'm tempted.  Oh so tempted because each time it seems different.  Like we MIGHT be growing closer.  And I really want that closeness with people.  So I've put up with crap behavior.  I'd reason that they are nice people who have moments of ugliness.  I'd want to be compassionate and helpful.

The truth is - they are ugly people who have moments of niceness.  Usually when there is something for them to gain.

THIS! 👆

Family members and old friendships that were established waaayyy before I even knew about boundaries and limits, or toxic behaviors are where we naturally want connection are where the nitty gritty work of truly coming Out of the FOG is culminating for me.

So now I grey rock as needed.  Friendly, a bit of tsk tsk-ing, and then I escape.  I cannot successfully rebuild these relationship with boundaries.  Instead I endure the existing relationship by my own rules. 

I remained troubled by those relationship but I find that since coming Out of the FOG I'm more careful of new friendships.  For instance, there is a local business woman that I admire.  She's done amazing things with her company and I'm in awe of her confidence.  HOWEVER - I don't respect the content she put out on videos.  She's very arrogant and "queen bee"ish.  I might just be a bit jealous but overall - I roll my eyes at her social media because it just too PDish.  Prior to my transformation we had loose plans to grab coffee and I really wanted to connect with her more.  I imagined all the ways we'd collaborate and how awesome it would be.  It never happened and I'm glad.  Because now I can't imagine how I'd get through 20 minutes of chatting with her.

I'm not emotionally invested in this woman but I don't like her.  This sounds cold and uncaring and at one time in my life I'd never admit that.  I'd even actively pursued a friendship with her because I'd think it would challenge and better me.  And I'd reason that I'd be good for her too.  And even typing all this I'm realizing how PD "I" sound.  Yikes!  Glad I'm on these boards trying to fix myself!

Today I find I can admire her life choices (she's really built her life into something special) but realize that she's not a good person for me.  I would not be a good person for her.  Even if she called me tomorrow and schmoozed me - I'd say no.  Politely.

And to live without self condemnation of your choice to not pursue a relationship with someone who you do not believe would be good for you is actually self care and love and not harsh and unkind at all. It's healthy.

[Poison Ivy]

Thanks for starting this thread, Bloomie. Among other things, I'm vulnerable to even a whiff of my ex-husband playing the victim. When I say "vulnerable," I mean not so much thinking that I need to respond but feeling an unreasonable amount of negativity toward him.

He still lives in his childhood home, because he was his parents' caregiver for several years until they both died last fall. Yesterday, he mentioned that one of his siblings was visiting and that she and he had donated the used hospital-type equipment and were planning to haul yard waste. My internal reaction was, "You're a healthy adult! Can't you do this stuff on your own?" Ugh on me. Fortunately, I guess, I didn't say anything to him.

[SparkStillLit]

Oooohhhh, Poison Ivy, I hear you so loud on that! ( Is that a weird thing to say?)
Updh "needs my help" so often, tries to solicit it in so many ways, and it's such hard work to not "think things" in my head and just zizz that stuff on by.
Also like SoT, I fall so easily into those traditional gender roles that were heavily enforced even to the side of NOT healthy during my upbriging, and updh will skirt right along that in getting my "help", and here again it's super hard work doing a kindness and just junk.

[blacksheep7]

Great topic.

It comes at a good time as I was questioning my relationship with my bff of 30 years.  Yes, she was the one who listened to me hours on end about my foo when  I was going through  the process of going Out of the FOG, the drama then nc with each family member.   I removed myself from a toxic environment.

Friendship is a give and take but her life is drama non-stop.   She works with toxic pd people who backstab, gossip about her.  Bosses that don't take charge when there is a problem, rug sweep.  She speaks her mind and doesn't fit in boxes of a follower since she is a leader and does her job well BUT the fact remains that she is very hurt & is rejected by her fellow workers.  It is always a mountain to climb  to get what she wants. This has been going on for two years!

The thing is that she remains in that toxicity always saying she's had enough, will change jobs one minute then the next saying she's too old to change

She also has a pd son who sucks the energy out of her,  puts boundaries in place here and there but not long as there is always a new drama with him and I haven't started about her partner in life. 

I am just realising this week  that she remains in that sh*t and I am her emotional garbage. It's starting to suck the energy out of me.  We would talk every day but I am now cutting that down as well as the length.     

[GettingOOTF]

I am working on all of these but these are what I'm particularly vulnerable to.

I am very much a helper. I battle a lot with Codependency. It's like a physical pull to help when someone says something that is even a little bit wrong in my mind.  I used to People Please to the point I wouldn't speak unless it was to enthusiastically agree with what was said, I gave extravagant gifts I couldn't afford and paid for lots of things like drinks and meals. I had a friend who really took advantage of this. I used to think I had to pay for any attention or friendship. There was nothing too ridiculous or self-sacrificing that I wouldn't do for my ex. He took complete advantage of this.

I'm very vulnerable to Hoovering/Love Bombing. During my most FOGgy times I used to get crushes on men who were simply polite to me in the office.  It was crazy how starved for any positive attention I was.

I'm naive. I don't expect people to do things I wouldn't do like be unfaithful, lie about important stuff.

I'm vulnerable to believing others are better than me and their way is what I should be doing if I think they are in anyway "better" than me in certain ways - more attractive, wealthy, in better shape, more popular. It's an interesting dynamic with the Codependency.

I'm a work in progress. I think what has held me back the most is the People Pleasing and thinking that I'm not enough. It's meant that I've settled for everything - friends, relationships, career, self-care.

I wish I'd figured this out years ago but I'm glad I'm figuring it out now.

[blacksheep7]

I am working on all of these but these are what I'm particularly vulnerable to.

I am very much a helper. I battle a lot with Codependency. It's like a physical pull to help when someone says something that is even a little bit wrong in my mind.  I used to People Please to the point I wouldn't speak unless it was to enthusiastically agree with what was said, I gave extravagant gifts I couldn't afford and paid for lots of things like drinks and meals. I had a friend who really took advantage of this. I used to think I had to pay for any attention or friendship. There was nothing too ridiculous or self-sacrificing that I wouldn't do for my ex. He took complete advantage of this.

I'm very vulnerable to Hoovering/Love Bombing. During my most FOGgy times I used to get crushes on men who were simply polite to me in the office.  It was crazy how starved for any positive attention I was.

I'm naive. I don't expect people to do things I wouldn't do like be unfaithful, lie about important stuff.

I'm vulnerable to believing others are better than me and their way is what I should be doing if I think they are in anyway "better" than me in certain ways - more attractive, wealthy, in better shape, more popular. It's an interesting dynamic with the Codependency.

I'm a work in progress. I think what has held me back the most is the People Pleasing and thinking that I'm not enough. It's meant that I've settled for everything - friends, relationships, career, self-care.

I wish I'd figured this out years ago but I'm glad I'm figuring it out now.

I think we kinda all fit in the people pleasers mold to one degree or another.


Better late than never. and we are a lot smarter and aware.

[doglady]

Great thread. Another health care worker here. What a surprise! 

1. I'm vulnerable to people who talk too much. I do a lot of listening in my job, which is fine, but even as a child and teen I've always attracted people - particularly friendships - who just seem to want to talk *at* me. I find it difficult to ask for the space to be heard in conversation, probably because I wasn't heard as a child/teen, and got used to being the sounding board. Plus I don't generally feel the need to say a whole lot, plus I genuinely am happy to listen - up to a certain point, plus I'm well aware that most other people do like to talk about themselves. But I notice that on those occasions when I do try to talk, I often get interrupted or the person starts looking around and seems distracted, so I give up and go quiet. Far be it from me to impose upon or bore someone. And so the cycle repeats. This is mainly the case with two friends (who don't seem to have any other friends - probably not hard to work out why). I'm also becoming a bit hermit-ish, avoidant and reclusive as quite frankly I'd rather just sit at home and knit than be exhausted by people wanting free therapy. I'm aware there's a correlation between my lack of chances to speak and my very long posts here!   

2. As mentioned in another poster's comment, I've often also been vulnerable to people who seem to have what we'd call charisma, good-looking or 'cool' types, too, people who give a strong impression of being very comfortable and confident with who they are. I think it stems back to my parents -  particularly my uPDM - often being in thrall to or commenting incessantly about goodlooking people and somehow valuing them more highly. I'm pretty at spotting these types but I know they often initially pique my interest, and it's a red flag, although I usually give them the benefit of the doubt to begin with.

I have many more vulnerabilities but my post is long enough for now.

[SparkStillLit]

I'm not in healthcare anymore, I'm a regulator now (SCARY!!!) and honestly I think this has been a huge growing step for me. One MUST have a spine as a regulator, and people tend to hate us or at least push back at us pretty hard if they don't get their desired outcome or speed.
I've learned a lot of GR and MC and walk away and hey! I can apply this at HOME!