Vulnerable to Certain PD Behaviors

[bloomie]

Good question Bloomie. A good exercise which we night all benefit from.  Our lists will all be pretty similar I wager!

So, off the top of my head, I'm vulnerable to charm, to someone giving me their whole attention (which I didn't get from mum) who really listens to me (or appears to). To someone who looks cool, edgy. To people with substance use issues (gulp).

Well, I'm glad I use a pseudonym. I clearly have work to do.

Boat Babe what vulnerability. Thank you for being so open. At times I have confused charm for kindness and as we all painfully know they are not at all the same. I have learned to look for graciousness and sincerity and an ability to listen and reciprocate instead.

I can see how we all could be vulnerable to someone who gives us their support or focused attention when we come from neglectful early childhood experiences. 

People with substance issues... oh boy, what a snare that can be.

[Hopeful Spine]

2. As mentioned in another poster's comment, I've often also been vulnerable to people who seem to have what we'd call charisma, good-looking or 'cool' types, too, people who give a strong impression of being very comfortable and confident with who they are. I think it stems back to my parents -  particularly my uPDM - often being in thrall to or commenting incessantly about goodlooking people and somehow valuing them more highly.

Much of what you wrote makes sense to me.  Except for this part.  My mother has always been very negative about people who are attractive or outgoing.  She'd make comments about how "fake" or "stuck up" they were.  I could never really enjoy my favorite aunt because my mom was always saying awful things about her.  Her crime - she was fussy about her appearance and she always did special things when she hosted (like using a fancy tablecloth or making a special lemonade).  When I see a confident, attractive person I admire them, long for them in my life, but do not consider them to be people I should be friends with.

Many of my "friends" are people who are "damaged" somehow.  In a more obvious way than I am damaged.  People who have a disability, are exceptionally unattractive, very poor, mental issues, much younger or much older, come from rough backgrounds.  I also befriend people who are not "damaged" but maybe are of a different race or sexual orientation (such as, "Remember my friend Betty.  You know her, she's a lesbian"). 

Now, being friends with anyone is great, if I really saw them for their good qualities.  And I do.  I'm F-ed up but not a total monster.  I truly care about people.  But, coming Out of the FOG, I'm realizing that I don't have much in common with them and even worse I behave differently when I am around each of them.  When I'm being honest with myself I admit that these relationships began because I have a big heart but ultimately, I'm using them to make myself feel better somehow.

To be fair, most of them "use" me as much as I "use" them.  It's messed up and unhealthy all the way around.    But opposite of you I tend to avoid people who are exciting, interesting and seemingly "normal".  What could I possibly offer to these vapid people who can see right through me, right?

I'm not proud typing any of that but it's something I need to sort out to be a genuinely real person to others and to myself.  Because you know what?  I like a fancy tablecloth.  I like chatting about silly things like cute shoes and pretty curtains.  Or Jesus.  I'd love to get a pedicure with someone.  Or trade healthy recipes.  Or volunteer with and be of true service to others.  But I don't feel worthy of those good and positive things about life.  I don't want to be fake or stuck up.  So I find people with real problems and I consider that being with "unfortunate" people is a better use of my time. 

As I slowly grow more sad.  Wow!  Some days I wonder why anyone likes me.

[bloomie]

For me, one of the hardships is the very fine line of balancing myself (51% rule) and my actions/reactions in normal helpfulness of the chosens and unchosens in my life,  yet recognizing PD behaviors in relationship to my helpfulness with others who are uPD's and not letting myself get taken advantage of.

I have two main uPD's in my life: my wife and my father.   Both know I am a helpful and caring person when 'true assistance' is needed.  I'm a believer that if a person can do something themselves, they should and be left to do so.  But, when a person in my circles truly needs some assistance and I am an available person and qualified, I will typically assist.

SoT - you have articulated the razor edge of difficulty in a way I could never and it makes it really clear and easy to take in. This is a compassionate view of a struggle I have at times shamed myself in when I give over in ways that are not balanced and healthy to uPD manipulative people.

With regard to my father: if he needs assistance because he is and old man (81) and his age prevents him from doing a necessary thing, I am willing to help.  If it's an unnecessary thing, or he can still do it in his own, then I do not help.  I treat my wife the same way.   But, both of them know my boundary line with this and purposefully put me in a thin-line boundary decision very often.  They will purposefully put themselves in an unnecessary predicament and then call on me for quick assistance, imho, to test my boundary line.  When I don't respond, and can easily do so, I get PD reactions including anger, blame, criticism and silent treatment following.  If I do help out (not sticking to my boundary) I find myself in these positions with them even more frequently.

Do you mind me asking what you do then? When you find yourself in those positions even more frequently after having held the standard that it is most healthy for all of us to do as much as we can for ourselves for as long as we can? With my own elderly uPD family member I can relate very closely to this exact situation and feel it is a constant silent power struggle for control and an attempt to control my time and resources without having to show mutual respect by directly requesting.  So chaos manufacture ensues and unnecessary predicaments arise that are near impossible not to respond to.

PD's are masters at pushing right up against boundary lines, creating no-win situations for non's and maximizing guilt/tough decisions based on societal norms, such as assisting the elderly and conservative gentleman norms regarding a female. 

SoT

YES! I the societal norms and cultural standards and in my own case, my faith and beliefs, have all been used to maximize guilt and ratchet up the manipulation.

[Wilderhearts]

What a good convo...

Similar to most people on here, I'm susceptible to people playing on my sympathies and empathy, either by playing the victim or faking vulnerability.

Great thread. Another health care worker here. What a surprise! 

1. I'm vulnerable to people who talk too much. I do a lot of listening in my job, which is fine, but even as a child and teen I've always attracted people - particularly friendships - who just seem to want to talk *at* me. I find it difficult to ask for the space to be heard in conversation, probably because I wasn't heard as a child/teen, and got used to being the sounding board. Plus I don't generally feel the need to say a whole lot, plus I genuinely am happy to listen - up to a certain point, plus I'm well aware that most other people do like to talk about themselves.

Like doglady said, I am a listener, in real life (also why I write such long posts too! haha).  Some people really run with the opportunity to take centre stage, and so I'm susceptible to pwPDs who make themselves the centre of the conversation, and don't reciprocate when it comes to listening.

Add to that, I value letting people know they are seen, heard, and affirmed.  Some people have a way of eliciting this from me - constantly asserting themselves in such a way as to elicit validation/agreement (namely vulnerable narcissists).  And I tend to give it, because I want people to be valued.  I'll have to pay closer attention to how people suck me into that.

I guess the main PD trait here I'm susceptible to is entitlement - to our time, our attention, and to our assistance and affirmation.

I don't know what you'd actually call this in Out of the FOG terms, but my friend called it perverse curiosity.  You know when they just start asking personal questions, digging for information, trying to force you to open up and be vulnerable and bare it all, under the guise of caring/bonding?  It feels violating, but I'm so used to having my boundaries violated I often don't tune into the feeling of how violating it is.  It's such a trap, because once you do they: 1. store the info you've given them like ammo, so at a later time they can twist it and use it against you 2. Mirror your values and beliefs back to you to trick you into thinking they're like you 3. Leach off of your vulnerability, as if they're learning, self-reflecting and growing too, when actually they're not, they're just gathering intel.  Honestly, it's the third one that I find the most disturbing - it's like somebody syphoning your empathy and energy off you as you practice vulnerability, and it feels so deeply violating.

That's another behaviour I've fallen for repeatedly - mirroring.  I want to give people the benefit of the doubt.  I want to stay humble, to not think I have more integrity than other people (even when I do).  So when somebody tells me they share my values, standards of behaviour, etc., I tend to believe them.  When they mirror back the warmth and sincerity I try to show others, I tend to believe them.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Bloomie,

You wrote:   " Do you mind me asking what you do then? When you find yourself in those positions even more frequently after having held the standard that it is most healthy for all of us to do as much as we can for ourselves for as long as we can? With my own elderly uPD family member I can relate very closely to this exact situation and feel it is a constant silent power struggle for control and an attempt to control my time and resources without having to show mutual respect by directly requesting.  So chaos manufacture ensues and unnecessary predicaments arise that are near impossible not to respond to. "

I agree 100% regarding the silent power struggle and chaos manufacture. Yes it is very difficult to not respond.  For me, it is a case-by-case basis and I have to ask myself, regarding each case:

1. Is there a way the person can actually satisfy the need by themselves  (no help needed)  If yes, refuse and encourage them to do it themselves. 

2. Is the need for something truly necessary for this person or unnecessary?  If unnecessary, then I have a 51% rule and boundary decision to make.  If its a tough call, I tend to choose the helpful decision because it's just who I am and I also don't desire to spend a lot of mental energy wrestling with myself afterwards.  If I see a repetitive pattern with this need, I say no the 2nd time and any time after.

3. Is there a need because of a true limitation on the abilities of this person?    #1-2 applies here as well with same rules.

4. Is there another person who can help them, other than myself?  If it's a time consuming task, then I will encourage this if #2 and #3 also fit the situation.

5. Is there a paid professional that can be hired to help with the situation?  Same as #4

Again it's a case by case basis.  Also, if I can predict the arising need and timing, I will make sure I'm unavailable on that day and/or time.  I have found that with enough refusal (because refusal was warranted in 1-5 above), that the PD learns my pattern of response and doesn't ask me as much in the future.  BUT.... I 100% experience PD behaviors as a result of all refusals, and the toolbox simply applies to my actions/reactions regarding the protection of myself.

SoT

[GentleSoul]

Great thread, thanks all.  Great discussion.

What hooks me in is the "poor me, victim" role.   People who bully through playing victim.  My uPD mum did this, my father too.  Also alcoholics are a hook too.  (Several generations of my family were alcoholics)

I should say WERE.  I  have worked hard and am re-writing my early life training now.

I am pleased to share that I am now repulsed by the very things that used to attract me.

Like two magnets that attract, one has now been turned the other way around and I am repelled.

I am retired now but I was a nurse and after that I worked in another caring profession.

[practical]

I used to be attracted to the outwardly self-assured people, they seemed to have what I didn't have in my insecurity, with my lack of self-esteem. Now they fortunately get on my nerves pretty quickly and I disappear before becoming involved. One problem solved, but the bigger one is the one below.

Apparently I am vulnerable to someone who appears to be vulnerable or hurting in some way and someone who is able to show warmth. 

The helper/fixer is still strong in me. Somebody mentions issues they are having and my mind goes into overdrive with practical solutions on how to help them, how to make it all better for them, how to fix their life. It is like an autonomes reaction of my mind, like Pavlov's dogs hearing the bell, and at the same time any of my needs get put on the way-back burner, actually they get deleted in my mind, because who am I to have needs, when somebody is clearly suffering and I could help them? Lifelong training to be my uPD-parents rescuer has deeply ingrained this pattern, never mind repeating it with friends, BFs and others to make it my default state of mind. Even if I might act on it in the moment, I have gotten much better at stepping back and reflecting on what I'm thinking and doing or have a strong inclination to do. I try to sleep on it for a night or two, often these automatic responses, these urges receed in this time. If I do decide to help, I try to set boundaries on how much I'm going to help in what way and make myself constantly reevaluate what I get back as a response: Is it drama, chaos, more neediness, self-victimization, or is the person also trying to help thenmselves, do I get some kind of recognition, appreciation for me (I'm not talking about a big thanks with flowers and chocolates, just making me feel seen)?

Sadly, it isn't just people expressing their needs, I also anticipate them, try to help even when nobody asks or tells me their sob story or drama (and I'm not talking about holding the door open for somebody, that is politeness). This is how I lived in updFOO, it was a way to survive to know in advance how to make their day better. I think there used to be an advertisement slogan "How can we help you today?" or "How can we make your day better today?" - it was the way my brain worked for years and still does even to the absurd "If I write a nice review I'll help this seller" not "I want to write a review because this product is important to me"  instead of "Why would I spend my time on a review at all rather than sit in my garden with a book???". For me helping was as much a survival instinct as fight or flight is.

Being an introvert, who doesn't talk much about herself and a good listener, who was trained to be the psychological garbage dump for uPDFOO doesn't help, it plays into it and is one of my ways of being helpful.

And this is the other facette of it:

And yes, the self doubt and questioning you mention. I am getting much more able to show compassion and kindness to myself, but that is still a trigger for me at times.

Not trusting my own feelings and thoughts, not feeling it is permissible to have those thoughts, thinking it is just me and therefore I'm wrong about this person and their behaviour, it is an old loop of guilt and learned behaviour, as those thoughts weren't pemissible in FOO. I'm getting better in stepping back and looking at them, evaluating them and giving them weight, recognizing them as possible early warning signs and then be more cautious till I can make a better judgement about the other person and what they bring into my life.

It is a constant issue and I don't think it will ever go away, I hope to improve on how I handle myself regarding this issue - not to jump head first into the deep end of the helping-others-pool anymore or at least get myself back on dry land pretty quickly again. I have become pretty hermit like as I still feel the self-victimhood people can spot me from a mile away, and like others said, fading away is often quite difficult once you have become even slightly friendly as they ignore the social cues and so it becomes a struggle, a struggle I don't relish and can be triggering because of the energy and fight it took to distentangle from uPDFOO.

Really helpful thread!

[Free2Bme]

Great thread.

I too am a HCW, I remember reading an article years ago about the high incidence of co-dependency among those in the industry. 

I think my Kryptonite is that sometimes I will view the behaviors of others as isolated incidents, and I will ascribe positive motives to explain these behaviors.  In the moment, it feels as if I am being diplomatic, fair, objective, etc.  In actuality, I'm delaying admitting to myself that the behavior is part of a bigger problem. 

This happens only in my relationships that I cherish.  My former marriage, my children, mother, close friends.  Because I don't want to lose these relationships, I overlook things that should be addressed, even if it's only me realizing internally that the other person is just not invested in the relationship as I am and then adjusting myself accordingly.  I eventually come around to the painful reality, but it takes me a while, I take it hard, and there is much regret.

For example, after my divorce hell and the smear campaign, I lost 95% of family/friends/church.  One 'friend', showed genuine interest in what was going on, I interpreted it as being caring.  When we meet up, she asks questions and shows interest, but never expresses anything in the shape of an opinion and is noncommittal.  Like, 'abuse is unacceptable', 'I support your decision to divorce', 'I am sorry you went through that'...etc.   I have come to realize that I am something she is intellectually curious about, and she possibly feels morally superior to me because she has a proper Christian marriage, no issues with her children, etc. 

I have distanced myself from her, but feel the pull whenever we meet up, and I come away feeling used and ill.  There is no real empathy or desire for connection on her part. 

My tendency to do this is directly proportional to the degree of loss I am experiencing overall in my relationships.  When I am longing for meaningful relationships and they are in short supply, I am most vulnerable to do this.   

[GentleSoul]

I hope this contributes in some way to this discussion.

I was trained to be a rescuer from a very young age.  I was meant to fix everything for the family.

So I dutifully did this until some decades later I worked on myself and stopped doing it.

I mention this as someone recently tried to dash in and "rescue" me and do you know, it was very ANNOYING.  I was livid.

I had mentioned a situation to her that I was dealing with and she took it upon herself to try and come fix it.  I found it very insulted and irratating.

Insulting as it implies that the person thinks I am useless, which I am not.   

I know in reality it was her playing out her own dysfunctions but just to mention what it feels like being on the other end of it.

She is also attracted to victim types (like I was). Is married to an alcoholic (like me).

[practical]

I hope this contributes in some way to this discussion.

I was trained to be a rescuer from a very young age.  I was meant to fix everything for the family.

So I dutifully did this until some decades later I worked on myself and stopped doing it.

I mention this as someone recently tried to dash in and "rescue" me and do you know, it was very ANNOYING.  I was livid.

I had mentioned a situation to her that I was dealing with and she took it upon herself to try and come fix it.  I found it very insulted and irratating.

Insulting as it implies that the person thinks I am useless, which I am not.   

I know in reality it was her playing out her own dysfunctions but just to mention what it feels like being on the other end of it.

She is also attracted to victim types (like I was). Is married to an alcoholic (like me).

This is if you are a normal functioning adult. I don't think my uPDparents ever found me rescuing them annoying, it is what they expected of me and if I didn't do it, it didn't go over well and I would hear how ungrateful, selfish, unloving or whatever negative thing I was. They would also not have described it as "rescuing" but doing what is expected of a daughter.

Happy for you that you have been able to create your own freedom and find your own strength.

[bloomie]

Thank you Son of Thunder for sharing the sequence you work through. I really appreciate it!

So many commonalities between us all as I read through each post.

Viewing poor behavior as a one off or isolated incident and ascribing positive motivations - thinking the best of others despite evidence to the contrary. Yep, I so get that.

Anticipating the needs of others and rushing in to rescue and now realizing that waiting until actually asked for help is respectful and an important filter because once asked... we can then work through it and make a measured choice.

I spent all of my childhood and young adulthood hypervigilant, finger to the wind of the needs, emotions, moods of unpredictable and unsafe parents. Working through the flashbacks that arise when I sense another's anger or disapproval -  that the understandable response to perceived danger, is so much better as I identify triggers and understand my own responses. But... what a struggle overcoming this is for me.   

Having a genuine interest and love of people and being a good listener is something to be self aware in. Many have mentioned how this leaves them vulnerable and I find this to be true for me as well.  As a core value, I now hold a reasonable level of reciprocity - that others in my close circle would take an interest in my life to some degree, is becoming a safeguard against falling for coercive and manipulative behaviors.

Something recently I have become very aware of is that I am attracted to storytellers of all sorts. I get caught up in another's story and have painfully had this driven home as a relationship with an old friend with a lot of HPD/N traits has ruptured. Her stories have had me leaning in and following along, empathetically nodding here and there, interjecting that's too bad, or oh that sounds fun... are targeted and highly manipulative and my natural instinctive response can and will be used against me later. I have to be really careful with this.

Words have the power to create and it is fascinating and beautiful when used for good and with integrity. Words can also gaslight, create chaos and confusion, break our hearts, and if we are not careful find us talking in circles with a skilled and relentless verbal manipulator.

[GentleSoul]

I hope this contributes in some way to this discussion.

I was trained to be a rescuer from a very young age.  I was meant to fix everything for the family.

So I dutifully did this until some decades later I worked on myself and stopped doing it.

I mention this as someone recently tried to dash in and "rescue" me and do you know, it was very ANNOYING.  I was livid.

I had mentioned a situation to her that I was dealing with and she took it upon herself to try and come fix it.  I found it very insulted and irratating.

Insulting as it implies that the person thinks I am useless, which I am not.   

I know in reality it was her playing out her own dysfunctions but just to mention what it feels like being on the other end of it.

She is also attracted to victim types (like I was). Is married to an alcoholic (like me).

This is if you are a normal functioning adult. I don't think my uPDparents ever found me rescuing them annoying, it is what they expected of me and if I didn't do it, it didn't go over well and I would hear how ungrateful, selfish, unloving or whatever negative thing I was. They would also not have described it as "rescuing" but doing what is expected of a daughter.

Happy for you that you have been able to create your own freedom and find your own strength.

Thank you, Practical.

Absolutely, I was very pleased at my reaction to the attempt to "rescue" me.  I felt it was the reaction of a mentally well and balanced person.  I found it validating for the personal growth work I have been doing on myself over the last few years. 

The unrecovered me would have felt obliged to accept this offer of (sick) help.  She would have rushed in and made what is currently a small issue into a massive circus and mess!   The me of now just Grey Rocked her comment, ignored it within her text and carried on about my day.  I was very pleased at my attitude and behaviour.   

I agree that dysfunctional/PD people see it in an entirely different way.    Indeed they see it as a duty.   My uPD mum saw it as my duty to "rescue" her, she wouldn't see it as "rescuing" as you say, rather that it was me doing what daughters are supposed to do.   

[notrightinthehead]

...a reasonable level of reciprocity.... I also find that if I use this as a safeguard it works as a great protection.  My need to be close with other people used to be so strong that I had the tendency to be maybe even a bit pushy by making more effort to stay in contact, get together,  do something together.   Now I try to give others space to show me how much contact they want.

I find that the more I make an effort to look inside me - acknowledge my deep longing for being close with others and the loneliness I feel because often that longing remains unfulfilled - and then just sit with my own feelings, the less I am vulnerable to being manipulated and used.

And when I wait for the other person to show me how much contact they want it is also easier to slow the contact down if it no longer works for me.

[1footouttadefog]

I recently have begun resetting some boundaries in a decade's long friendship and in that emotional drama-bound process, I am noticing that I am particularly susceptible to people who have histrionic traits.

Even though I know I cannot trust a single word that drips like honey from this friend's lips I have to check myself from leaning forward and being drawn in and believing her as she takes center stage once again.

I have to remind myself that the persona that she would never hurt a soul is not real. That the manipulating and monopolizing, the shallowness, and seeming inability to listen and engage when not the center of attention is a problem that actually does hurt the people who love her.

So much of any interaction is an illusion and sleight of hand with one aim. To get what she wants by the power of her words and personality. And it works much of the time.

I don't like this vulnerability in myself and want to understand it better. All of the work coming Out of the FOG and I realize that I will need to continue working on these pockets of vulnerability.

Anyone else recognize certain PD traits that sneak through your defenses more easily? Are you willing to share those traits and how have you equipped yourself better to be more impervious to them?

I noticed a few red flags in your description of this "friend" 

I had a large reality shift when coming Out of the FOG.  It was that I had to many non friend friends in my life.  I had to re-evaluate each and every friendship and acquaintance and re-adjust them until they were safe and healthy.  In some cases this mean no longer being in contact in other cases I discovered super people who I had not distinguished from the crowd previously. 

Looking at the most uncomfortable encounters and relationships i have had and thinking back I try to examine what were my feelings about that person when I first met them.  What were my expectations of the relationship or friendship.  I hen try to separate the reality from my mis judgements and look for projections on my part and so forth.

In doing this sometimes uncomfortable process, I usually find patterns and can then strengthen those vulnerabilities in my self or simply avoid danger by no proceeding.

I have found that in almost all cases taking a step back and approaching new friendships more  slowly than in my past screans the close calls out and I look back with thankfulness that trouble was avoided.

The feelings that I used to feel that made me want to jump in and get closer to a person and jump in and help with what ever they had going on is now a red flag to me.  I proceed with caution when I feel that something.  I now know its an urge to please a narcissistic person or get enmeshed with an emotional vampire or such.  I guess being needed is a vulnerability of mine.  If I feel to much of an opportunity I see it as a trap. 

Additionally  If I notice myself feeling confused or down after an interaction with someone or a group repeatedly i see that as a red flag.  If I come home and wonder what I said wrong to have such an awkward interaction repeatedly where I was made to feel uncomfortable about myself or I was dismissed or devalued or invalidated etc. I now realize I need to re-evaluate the connection. 

In the past I would have stewed over it.  Now i see it as a social mismatch and feel much less anxiety. 

I have shored up my vulnerabilities but part of that is by not being available to jerks.  Other aspects of dealing with my vulnerability is screening them in the first place.

Where I cannot avoid them, I try to not take it personally and attribute it to the other person having a varying set of values and character traits from me.  I resort to logic and Spock like interactions, almost like grey rock but more polite and business casual.

[Spygirl]

This is a great thread! Such good info from all of you.

I dont feel strong enough to engage too much with anyone. My old house renovation is my excuse to hide away for now.

I have what appear to be sweet neighbors, but it is such a gossipy place i just dont feel ready to wade in.

So i keep a small social circle i dont get too deep with for now. Its working out for me.