Full tilt guilt over holiday

[p123]

As expected.....
Of course, hes got Covid worry/excuse as well now to play. All boils down to, basically, dad doesnt like me going away on holidays.

Booked two weeks in spain short notice. Government have said its ok now to fly to spain.

So, I've had from Dad "its the worse in the world there", "its awful" etc etc all made up in his head.
So then I've had "I won't sleep", "I'll be worried sick", "this will finish me off".

Its absolutely crazy. I'm 52 years old. I've travelled all over the world with work - I think I am capable of intelligent thought and deciding if its safe to go somewhere. Not in Dads head.

Really annoyed with him that hes trying these tricks. Although, have this sort of thing for years, I really don't give a monkeys if he does make himself ill with worry,

I used to pander to this and realised I wasnt doing things or doing things for no good reason - because an 80 year old man who has no idea how the world works was guilting me into it. So I stopped doing it. I even looked into the idea that dad may have real anxiety issues and tried to get him to speak to a doctor - his answer "no such thing as anxiety/depression - its just moany people who need to pull their socks up and stop feeling sorry for themselves".

After that, I stopped completely, and now I think "pull your socks up then!",

Of course, two weeks away is also two weeks where I cant run around for him. So it works both ways.

[practical]

Will he worry himself sick? I don't know. Certainly his statements could all be part of manipulation to make sure you don't go and instead take care of him and his needs. I hope you go and have a wonderful - guiltfree! - time. Have a wonderful vacation!

[nanotech]

When I read the book 'Toxic Parents' I gained my first understanding of how a toxic family can use safety issues as a way to control children.
I also realised that I picked up fleas and am guilty of it myself.  I have had to have therapy for this problem!  I'm currently work in progress!
When my adult kids have announced trips abroad, I always felt uneasy at first. Then I challenge my negative feelings, and then I can begin to be positive about the holiday. I recognise it's fleas from my upbringing.

I also realise that wherever they may travel to, it's none of my business. It hasn't been since they became adults.

Your dad is wanting you to cancel your holiday, just so that his irrational fears are allayed and he can feel calm. His threats are very similar to the kinds of things I get from my dad. In the past I've been told off for telling him about a planned trip or a health scare and
'making me worry.'
I've had health scares ( including a potentially serious one that thankfully was a false alarm)  and NOT told dad either at all or only much later, and been praised by dad for not putting him into anxious mode. This means that I have to worry all on my own.
( I do have hubby, but you know what I mean).
If I confided in dad, I wouldn't get sympathy. I would instead get blamed for causing HIM discomfort.
They expect us to, as they see it , protect THEM by narrowing OUR every experience.

In contrast to how dad exoects me to behave, he went on loads of international trips between the 70s and the 90s. It's hypocritical. 

Your dad is being inconsistent too. He flouted the rules quite a few a times during the lockdown, didn't he? It didn't seem to bother him that he caused you to feel concerned. Your concern was based on fact!  His is based on his feelings.
But he expects you to behave even more conservatively than the rules, so that he can feel comfortable.
They look to us, to control their emotions.
Sigh.
So safety is not quite what it's about is it?  It's about control.
And he will sleep. He's not going to stay awake for two weeks.

[p123]

Will he worry himself sick? I don't know. Certainly his statements could all be part of manipulation to make sure you don't go and instead take care of him and his needs. I hope you go and have a wonderful - guiltfree! - time. Have a wonderful vacation!

He probably will make himself ill. How much is real and how much is in his head - not sure.....

Its manipulation too - he doesnt want me to go. In his head, hes so helpless and needs constant care so how can I go away and leave him. The reality is he needs zero care just prefers it that way.

[p123]

When I read the book 'Toxic Parents' I gained my first understanding of how a toxic family can use safety issues as a way to control children.
I also realised that I picked up fleas and am guilty of it myself.  I have had to have therapy for this problem!  I'm currently work in progress!
When my adult kids have announced trips abroad, I always felt uneasy at first. Then I challenge my negative feelings, and then I can begin to be positive about the holiday. I recognise it's fleas from my upbringing.

I also realise that wherever they may travel to, it's none of my business. It hasn't been since they became adults.

Your dad is wanting you to cancel your holiday, just so that his irrational fears are allayed and he can feel calm. His threats are very similar to the kinds of things I get from my dad. In the past I've been told off for telling him about a planned trip or a health scare and
'making me worry.'
I've had health scares ( including a potentially serious one that thankfully was a false alarm)  and NOT told dad either at all or only much later, and been praised by dad for not putting him into anxious mode. This means that I have to worry all on my own.
( I do have hubby, but you know what I mean).
If I confided in dad, I wouldn't get sympathy. I would instead get blamed for causing HIM discomfort.
They expect us to, as they see it , protect THEM by narrowing OUR every experience.

In contrast to how dad exoects me to behave, he went on loads of international trips between the 70s and the 90s. It's hypocritical. 

Your dad is being inconsistent too. He flouted the rules quite a few a times during the lockdown, didn't he? It didn't seem to bother him that he caused you to feel concerned. Your concern was based on fact!  His is based on his feelings.
But he expects you to behave even more conservatively than the rules, so that he can feel comfortable.
They look to us, to control their emotions.
Sigh.
So safety is not quite what it's about is it?  It's about control.
And he will sleep. He's not going to stay awake for two weeks.

Yes good point. During lockdown my brother went in the house, took him out for a ride in the car etc.
I have pointed out to him that the governement have agreed for travel to spain after all.

But thats Dad for you. Always been the same. His favourite phrase is "to be on the safe side" which for dad means living in fear all your life. His other one recently is "its not getting any better, is it?"

You mention illness. If I ever had anything serious wrong, I've decided I wont tell Dad. Dealing with him would be worse.
I had a nasty chest infection a year or so ago. Lost my voice, felt rough. Dad kept phoning every day - I could hardly speak. So one day I said, look I'll phone you in a day or two, I need rest and some sleep. Nope next day, midday hes ringing me again. I though stuff it and didnt answer. Phoned me something like 70 times. Then brother started to ring, then I got facebook messages, then I got facebook abusive messages from brother telling how selfish I was making dad worry. All before 6pm the same day this was.

I went nuts. His excuse "I was worried something had happened to you". Bear in mind, I'm home, no underlying health problems, Im generally ok. Oh and my wife, whos a registered nurse, was home as well.

I've suffered from anxiety/depression for 20+ years. OK at the mo. I've NEVER told Dad. He'd make me worse. Especially when his attitude is generally "just need to pull your socks up a bit" to mental illness. I can't just imagine how badly it would go.

[nanotech]

P123 your dad is hard to handle!
My dad applies the 'safe side' stuff to himself.  My dad would also not ring me if I'd told him my throat was sore etc.

You wrote this;
" I had a nasty chest infection a year or so ago. Lost my voice, felt rough. Dad kept phoning every day - I could hardly speak. So one day I said, look I'll phone you in a day or two, I need rest and some sleep. Nope next day, midday hes ringing me again. I though stuff it and didnt answer. Phoned me something like 70 times. Then brother started to ring, then I got facebook messages, then I got facebook abusive messages from brother telling how selfish I was making dad worry. All before 6pm the same day this was."

This is very very abusive behaviour from your dad. Then he added your brother into the mix. This is where you have it a lot worse than me.  My dad would have left me to get well.
He can be a pain in terms of ' aren't you better yet?' syndrome, but he wouldn't do the mad ringing. Your dad acts horribly entitled. There's no concern in it, it's  bullying.  His anxiety was triggered by your illness, but it isn't for you. It's all about his discomfort that you are not able to be 'at your post' so to speak.
It's as if he's ignoring the fact that you live in a different household with your own family. He can't force you to live with him any more so he does his best to trample your boundaries by phone and social media.
He doesn't see you as separate. That's enmeshment.
My parents were dismissive of anyone with depression/ anxiety.
My dad has health anxiety but won't admit that. The same attitude really,  on that one.

[p123]

nano - yes I was not impressed at the time. Its not the first time hes done it either. His stock is excuse which he thinks means he can do what he wants is "I was worried about you".

I had exactly the same pattern when we went to glastonbury last year. I'd said Dad im in the middle of a field, dodgy phone signal, can't charge phone, call me only in an emergency otherwise call my brother. So he got brother to text me - "call dad". I replied "whats up?", same response, I said "look just tell me the problem", reply "just tell me the problem". So I thought sod it I'm not ringing him. Then I had abusive fbook message from brother about how selfish I was, then he sent one to my wife too saying "you two think you're special but you're both just selfish a@holes". That went down well. (brother has been blocked since).

When I got back on the monday, dad tried to play it down but I've no doubt he insisted I HAD to call him. He'd had a final bill after switching energy supplier - THATS ALL and he was "worried" it had to be paid. Bearing in mind the letter arrived on a saturday. Not sure whether he thought they'd be kicking his door down by sunday if he didnt pay within hours. It was sorted in 10 mins on monday by me. As you say, his stupid anxiety and worry and I've got to be controlled.

He did once have a problem chewing. Apparently, its a bit of a mental issue. Doctor told him this and he went nuts. Had an argument with the doctor etc - how dare he say that etc etc. He would not have it. In his eyes, mental illness only exists in people locked up in padded cells -there is nothing else that you can't "snap out of it". I guess his theory was proven incorrect here.

BUT, he made me swear that I would NEVER EVER tell anyone about the problem he had, not even my wife. Of course, I told her and told her what he'd said - she did think it was very funny.

[nanotech]

Crikey, your brother is well out of order speaking like that to your wife.

There was a time when my parents went away for the weekend and left me and Nsis at home ( we were adults, well sort of. We had both returned to live at our parents' home with our partners to 'save up for a house deposit.' I suspect that enmeshment  was the real reason.)
Anyway, a red bill arrived. Knowing my dad paid upfront always j knew it had been paid and this reminder had been sent out in error.
Nsister went  into full drama mode, was agitated to high heaven about it and insisted we contact them over it.
Fuss fuss fuss . Doom and gloom . She was hitting a crescendo of panicky squawking when I rang the company's number and cleared it up in about 20 seconds flat. Bill was paid already, and the reminder should have been cancelled.
Sister  was a parent, and at that time I wasn't. She just went to some sort of crazy place.
I remember feeling very surprised at her reaction.  I had to be the calm one.

She still had to ring our parents.

P123 I think your wife deserves a medal for putting up with your dad and your brother.

I've had MY brother speak to me like that. His style is more passive aggressive. I just used to tolerate it. I would justify my response to him as being medium chill. But actually I came to see that I was just fawning, to keep the family peace and enable his magical thinking that he's in charge of us all ( as in flght/ flight/ freeze / fawn). 
Eff that. He's blocked now. 😄

[p123]

Crikey, your brother is well out of order speaking like that to your wife.

There was a time when my parents went away for the weekend and left me and Nsis at home ( we were adults, well sort of. We had both returned to live at our parents' home with our partners to 'save up for a house deposit.' I suspect that enmeshment  was the real reason.)
Anyway, a red bill arrived. Knowing my dad paid upfront always j knew it had been paid and this reminder had been sent out in error.
Nsister went  into full drama mode, was agitated to high heaven about it and insisted we contact them over it.
Fuss fuss fuss . Doom and gloom . She was hitting a crescendo of panicky squawking when I rang the company's number and cleared it up in about 20 seconds flat. Bill was paid already, and the reminder should have been cancelled.
Sister  was a parent, and at that time I wasn't. She just went to some sort of crazy place.
I remember feeling very surprised at her reaction.  I had to be the calm one.

She still had to ring our parents.

P123 I think your wife deserves a medal for putting up with your dad and your brother.

I've had MY brother speak to me like that. His style is more passive aggressive. I just used to tolerate it. I would justify my response to him as being medium chill. But actually I came to see that I was just fawning, to keep the family peace and enable his magical thinking that he's in charge of us all ( as in flght/ flight/ freeze / fawn). 
Eff that. He's blocked now. 😄

Yes. Brother was the biggest flying monkey in the world. "Was" because we've not spoken for over a year and long may it continue.

Wife was not impressed at the time. Can you blame her?

As I've said before, brother panders to Dad. Because its easy for him. He lives a mile away, got no kids to look after, so if dad moans its not the end of the world to sort it out. For me its different - if he makes some stupid request quite possibly it means I've got to sort childcare etc.

In the case of this "bill". In the past, I've done all things like that. So on that weekend it was an easy job for him. Ring me, get me to sort, his work is done.

His favourite saying used to be "he brought us up, and he needs us now, so we have to put him first" which in his eyes meant dropping everything for him. Its ironic because brother is going to be in last place in any father of the year awards himself - 3 kids from 2 different partners that he never sees (mainly because he refuses to pay child support and generally cant be bothered because hes moved on and got married again). You may remember him trying to get one of his taken into care once when it looked like he might have to take charge of one of them temporarily (long story, mother had "problems" and social wanted him to take temporary care - he refused).