When they out themselves as difficult, conflicting feelings

[Penny Lane]

Every so often BM will let her mask slip and send others the kind of combative communication she usually reserves for speaking privately to DH. Usually it's only about 10% of what she would typically send DH. But it's rude and shocking enough that she basically turns off the recipient for good. It's often because in a roundabout way she feels that the person is "siding" with DH, even when they're just talking to both parents.

This has happened a handful of times over the years with teachers, coaches, fellow parents, etc. Sometimes they address it with DH. More often they don't say anything but do start sending emails only to DH whereas they would've otherwise sent them to both parents. I know there are a few other parents that straight up refuse to talk to her, and some of them DH and I don't even know what happened.

Most recently she's been removed from the mailing list of a parent-led club at DSD's school after she sent a long thing about DH and whether he has the authority to take DSD to this club. DH remains on the mailing list. And now BM (I assume) feels backed into a corner. All she would have to do is ask to be added back to the mailing list, but that would involve admitting that she messed up so she won't. I think they have some plausible deniability in that her email made it sound like she wasn't going to take DSD to the club. But my guess is just that no one wanted to deal with her.

On one hand it is VERY gratifying when other people see what we see from her. I have to imagine that the parents and the teachers talk to each other, and word gets around about these bizarre missives. The worse she behaves, the less people will believe her "poor me, help me deal with my terrible ex husband" line. When she does this to people, they are all of a sudden a lot nicer to DH and a lot more willing to include him in conversations/spaces that are typically informally for moms. If BM's is going to try to force people to choose one parent to interact with (and I think she does, explicitly and through pressure), I would rather it be DH than her. (If nothing else, he will include her in stuff that she doesn't know about, but she absolutely won't vice versa).

On the other hand, it's a real bummer that DSD is probably not going to be able participate in this club during BM's parenting time, and that the kids can't see some friends on their mom's time because she's alienated them, and all the other ways they're missing out because she acts like a jerk to people. DSS sounded VERY surprised that we said that DSD would be doing this club. So my guess is that BM told DSD that she can't or isn't going to participate. So at best she'll be able to go to half the meetings. That's sad! There is no reason other than BM couldn't control her own rudeness and then couldn't bring herself to even kind of acknowledge that she had been rude.

I will say, back in the day when the dust was still settling from the divorce, DH used to worry that BM would manage to totally shut him out of parenting responsibilities. She was definitely trying to do so, sometimes successfully, when I met him. It caused a lot of power struggles. I wish I had known back then what I know now, that not only has she NOT shut him out of parenting but she's sort of boxed HERSELF out of stuff. I don't think the power struggles were totally pointless - at least sometimes, winning those previous power struggles are WHY DH is still able to be involved - but I would have been a lot more chill if I had known that all we have to do is sit back and let her be her own worst enemy.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi PL,

Sadly, I think it's a process and a torture that we need to go through to get where we are now.  If you were more chill in the past, some of the battles may have gone differently.  I like to think our past traumas had a positive outcome 

Our BM has the same behaviors with 3rd parties, but sadly...she's so aggressive she scares them into submission.  She'd think nothing of threatening someone's job or reputation to force them to do/behave as she desires.  You guys are really lucky- we had hoped your experience would be ours too....I mean...who wouldn't be able to notice the parent screaming obscenities vs. the calm kind parent?  The whole "if she has enough rope"....nope....too smart and viscous. 

Glad things seem to be going in the right direction for you guys!  Have you noticed any improvements from the stand point of the kids?

[Penny Lane]

I think it saves us that BM likes to maintain plausible deniability that she's being reasonable. So while the communication is jarring it's sort of cloaked in polite words. She likes to pretend that she is a reasonable person even as she's doing these very unreasonable things. I guess you're right that it's better than the alternative.

So, it seems that BM has realized that she's basically shot her relationships with everyone in the kids' school community, and she's making a play to move the kids out of their school district. I know we've seen this before on this board and I always thought it was only a matter of time before she tried this. (She's actually made noises about it occasionally in the past but this time it seems like she is focused on really making it happen.) She and DH when they were married moved into maybe the best school district in the state, which is where the kids still go to school and where we live now. After the divorce she moved to an area with a much, much worse school district and not great schools in that area - it's basically a bar/party area with no schools very close at all. Now she is telling DH that the kids should go to school closer to her house (even though she chose to move away!) So that's frustrating although there's a very good written record that they've agreed, over and over, that the kids should stay in their current district. Hopefully it doesn't come to court. Hopefully DH can let BM spin her wheels on this topic until she moves on to something else.

In other news, DSD has gone to a couple meetings of the club. The other parents (all moms, which always makes DH a little nervous) were EXTREMELY nice to DH, like more than normal, maybe because they saw what he deals with with BM? DSD loves this club and loves her friends who are in it. So even if she can only go half the time, we can make it a positive, fun experience during that half, right?

In terms of good stuff for the kids ... it's mixed, really. Both kids are struggling with the lack of structure this year because of COVID changes. And BM of course makes that a million times worse because there is no structure, period, at her house. I feel like we've sort of taken a step backwards in terms of constantly having to catch the kids up on sleep and having them be on edge all the time. I also think the kids do see her treat people this way and see how it doesn't work out for her. But it's damaging to see your mom treat people badly!

Case in point: DSS told me this the other day. Apparently his mom overslept and couldn't get him where he needed to go. He gets in trouble if he's late. I asked, "Did you let her know that she made you late? What did she say?" He said "Well we got into an argument where she says I always say she's wrong. I think that's sometimes true, but I also think she IS wrong sometimes!" I told him I was very proud of him for seeing it, we brainstormed possible solutions and it was a good opening to let him know that sometimes things are kind of sucky and it's ok to be frustrated. So, on one hand that's good, he's seeing her for what she is, but on the other hand it's causing him an incredible amount of stress to be constantly late or on the verge of late because his mom can't set an alarm for herself.

Oh AND - and this is insane - DSS recently mentioned that he believes that we are middle class and BM is lower class, income-wise. SHE MAKES TWICE AS MUCH AS DH MAKES! And I'm fairly certain that her bf, who allegedly lives with her although still has his own apartment (?) makes significantly more than I do. Maybe this was too much. But I told him that the income disparity actually went the other direction and if the kids live differently over here it's because of choices we make, NOT because we're just rolling in cash. He said she struggles to buy enough food to keep in the house. And yet every time we see her she's got a new purse or a new whatever. I didn't tell DSS this but we also know that her parents pay her rent and pretty much all her expenses so I don't understand how she doesn't have money for food? Like if we didn't have a mortgage payment imagine how much more money we'd have for the kids! It's very frustrating that DSS got such an inaccurate picture of what's happening. I hope that correcting it does more good than harm.

Also in good news DH got DSS into a counselor! My hope is that the counselor talks to DH and BM minimally and really focuses on DSS. Last time BM got extremely defensive about any suggestions for how to do things differently. And she did NOT like it when DH had good answers to the counselor's questions about what's happening at home. She saw it as a sort of competition that she was losing, and she pulled DSS out. Fingers crossed that she's not able to do that this time.

So I think in some ways things are good. The kids and especially DSS are starting to really see BM with clarity, and that allows them to make informed decisions about how to handle her. We're really trying to tighten up our parenting game - this summer was rough for everyone and we need to be more on the ball. BM is still there but at this point we have a lot of experience under our belt at trying to mitigate it. She doesn't seem to have succeeded in alienating the kids from us even a little. I think all things considered they're doing about as well as can be.

[Stepping lightly]

It sounds like things have improved!  kids not being alienated...is our #1 goal on getting the kids through childhood, so I imagine that is a huge relief. 

It sounds like your DSS goes through similar things to my DSS.  He told us last year that BM makes him late for school and then she refuses to sign him in so he automatically gets lunch detention.  If went in with him, he wouldn't get detention, but that's inconvenient for her.   She'll also kick him out of the car in the middle of car pool if she is running late to work, ya know...safety first and all.  My heart broke when DSS was telling me, so matter of fact, like this is what he deals with so he figures out how to manage.  He doesn't fight back, she made sure of that a few years ago.

I think it's pretty common for the PD to be "poor" and the non to be at least middle class....we are deemed "rich" to BM's stat of  "destitute" (she actually convinced a judge of this....even with getting a large amount of CS every month....she was "destitute").  We try to teach the kids that we all make decisions.  We don't tell them that if tell your child that their therapy costs mean they won't have food to eat, but then you go out and get 3 massive tattoos, that is pretty bad parenting.......but we do give them examples of our decisions and why/how we make them.  Sadly, I think DSD is enmeshed and she actually strives to be poor as an adult- she thinks it is the morally superior thing to do.  I was furious a few months ago....DSD made a comment about how much DH/I make.  BM knows because we had to provide tax returns for CS, and the number DSD threw out was uncomfortably close to what we were making at that time.  It may be silly, but it feels like such a privacy violation for BM to know my salary, I grew up where you didn't talk about it, even my immediate family doesn't know.

Congrats on the counselor.  IME, if you can minimize parental contact with the therapist, the more likely it will be that DSS will have a benefit.  If you take the "this can be used for custody" off the table for both parents, and focus simply on the child....it makes a huge difference.  This is very much dependent on the therapist/counselor, they have to be willing to maintain confidentiality and focus on helping DSS through the issues he is experiencing.  Honestly, even trying to "fix" behaviors of the parents is pointless, it just undermines the whole process with a PD.

My SKs have switched schools quite a lot- it seems BM has a 3 year expiration date before she burns all her bridges...or needs fresh supply.  That worked well for her with Middle School, but I'm curious to see if they make it all the way through the same High School for 4 full years.  Our order specifies which district the kids school has to be in, which protects us a little as far as distance that she forces us to drive (esp when she puts the kids in diff. schools  )

[athene1399]

I understand the conflict. As satisfying as it is to watch BM "hang herself with her own rope", SO and I get a few seconds to relish in the fact that the mask slipped off and others know we aren't the "crazy" or "abusive" ones before we remember this is SD19's mom and SD is the one who has to deal with her. We can walk away easily as we have no relationship with her (SD is still doing her own insurance and has been living on her own), but BM is still SD's mom and SD loves her. But I guess we deal with that by validating the conflicting feelings that SD may experience. SD wanted BM accountable for her actions but also wants her to do well (SD is Out of the FOG and VLC with BM). It's a catch 22. No one wins. All we can do is teach resilience, radical acceptance, and healthy coping skills. The PD parent learned unhealthy ways to cope and that is what causes the majority of their issues IMO (with BM at least). It's upsetting to see the effects on the children, but sometime we can do nothing but support the child as they work through it. And as small as that may sometimes feel, it is huge to the child. They see the unconditional love from the nons even if they can't acknowledge it IMO.

BM used to tell SD how "poor" she was making more money than us. Without directly talking about BM, I would say how some rich people have no money becasue they spend it on a lot of frivolous things to keep up their image. We started discussing more financial things with SD as she got older, like you can have this one outfit for school for $x but if you find things that are cheaper we can afford to get you more clothes. She started being able to weigh out herself if it was worth the purchase or if she'd rather save her money for something else. SD eventually came to the conclusion that BM spent too much money on stuff she didn't need and that was her issue and that she wasn't necessarily "poor". But you can't come out and say that. They have to see it for themselves. But it is frustrating to hear. Very frustrating.

PL, I hope BM doesn't take you guys back to court over the school thing. Especially to switch them to a worse district.

[Penny Lane]

Yes, exactly, it was very easy to feel smug but ultimately it doesn't really matter what other parents think, it matters how it affects the kids. There are some tangible benefits (like, moms and teachers will be more willing to include DH whereas otherwise they'll be more likely to just email BM and assume she passes it along because that's what all the other divorced parents do.) But ultimately it's a short lived smugness because it would be SO much better if their mom didn't do this stuff at all. So while I'm grateful that she's inept in trying to drive wedges between DH and other people, I wish she wouldn't do it in the first place!

I also hope she doesn't turn schooling into a court fight! I was trying to figure out how much damage she can cause by behaving erratically and I think the answer is quite a bit? I think it's possible that she could try to enroll the kids in a new district and un-enroll them from their current district. I think that DH could come in with the court order and say, please re-enroll them, she does not have the authority to un-enroll them. But then are they taking the kids to two different schools??? Basically she could create a huge headache for DH (and me) so hopefully it doesn't come to that. I wish our order specified the district. A change within the district would be much less disruptive than a change to an entirely different district (again, in a party/bar area!) In fact DH tried to add it to the order at one point and BM explicitly told him in writing that she wants the kids to stay in the same district. Obviously we would've rather had it added to the order but she made a bunch of other concessions at the time so he dropped it. At least we have that statement in writing, I guess.

The conversation about money has been a long time coming and the more I think about it the more I'm glad I said it, even though it's not really appropriate in a healthy coparenting setting. (I didn't tell him how much she makes, just that it's about twice as much as DH). For years we've been encouraging the kids to think about money responsibly, to learn how to spend their own money responsibly, talking to them about responsible choices that we make as well as how we decide when it's OK to splurge a little. I think that all that counteracts the bad example she sets around money. But it doesn't counteract her specific statements, which I imagine are something along the lines of SL's BM's "I'm so destitute" and also "it's your dad's fault." He was SHOCKED to learn that she makes more than DH. He tried to explain it by saying "well some of the ways we save money started years ago" and I said "yes, we plan out 1-2 years in advance so that we know we'll have what we need, rather than waiting until there's an expensive problem to try to come up with the money."

We are definitely fortunate in a lot of ways, but BM is financially fortunate in way more ways than us. She convinces the kids that she's a victim of her circumstances rather than the truth which is that they are victims of her decisions. I don't love that they have to know this. But I do think that once again BM is trying to push them to choose her side over DH, and if she's going to force them into that then at least they'll have all the information.

Hopefully the therapist won't really talk to the parents. I wasn't there last time around, but from what DH described there was very little criticism of BM or anyone. It was mostly very gentle suggestions that really could be applied to anyone - stuff like, have a chore chart. I think that what BM objected to most was the answers to the questions. She learned a bunch of stuff about how functional our house is and she did NOT like it. Stuff like, she learned that the kids have allowances and they get to spend their money pretty much however they want. Learning that we already have a structure for chores. Just basics of parenting where she's not wrong to not do it that way, but she has to face the fact that DH puts more thought and effort into parenting than she does.

As an aside, she used to ask him pretty routinely if he had any suggestions for her. I don't know what her goal was, my guess is that she liked feeling/hearing that he didn't have answers to her parenting issues. But the reality is that he did! So he started sending her really thoughtful answers like, well at my house this is what I would do differently. She HATED that. She would send him these nastygrams about how if he was just going to criticize her, he could keep his mouth shut.

But yeah I agree, with many kid issues the answer lies in the parents. And yes, BM could solve DSS's issues by not being terrible! But she will never do that so better to focus on giving DSS skills to cope with it.

So, thanks guys for listening to my rambling. I guess I'm in a headspace where once again I'm realizing that this is about as good as it gets. The kids are OK and they are not successfully being alienated. They're mostly doing well. But that is because DH and I have to fend off BM's ridiculous moves, over and over, and I guess that will continue to some degree for a long time. It's nice to be able to come here where people get the mix of frustration/sadness/amusement/relief/resignedness I'm feeling.

[Stepping lightly]

The chore chart reminded me of a chart DH had a reward chart for helping with chores and good behaviors (they got stickers, and after X number of stickers= allowance).  When BM found out about it, she raged about how it was such bad parenting to use the chart.  She convinced the original therapist to agree with her, and the T basically made DH stop the chart.  It was really amazing, I think it's like you said PL, she felt threatened by his engagement in parenting the kids.

[Penny Lane]

Yeah, absolutely, she was jealous that it doesn't work for her! I think the issue with therapy (in this context) is that the kids have learned to basically never tell her anything about what happens at our house. Obviously DH isn't trying to hide the fact that the kids get an allowance - but it doesn't really come up. So she can convince herself that our house is as dysfunctional as hers and that we are struggling too. So when she sees evidence that we are not in fact struggling, that we have implemented parenting structures before the therapist even suggests it, she feels inadequate and jealous, and therefore lashes out.

And yet ... knowing all this, we're still powerless to prevent it and at the mercy of her temper tantrum whenever she feels inadequate.

[athene1399]

So when she sees evidence that we are not in fact struggling, that we have implemented parenting structures before the therapist even suggests it, she feels inadequate and jealous, and therefore lashes out.

I think we get/got this as well.

SD opened up to us about the verbal abuse that used to happen when she lived with BM. She said one of the things BM would say was "If things are so perfect at SO's and Athene's, then why don't you live there?" A few days ago, SO got a raving text from BM blaming him for something she did a year AFTER they separated (something from 8 years ago) and then at the end she threw in "I am glad your life is so perfect". So we also have seen the jealousy followed by lashing out (at least what she says makes it looks like she is jealous as I can't know how BM actually feels unless she tells us). I try to keep in mind that it is a defense mechanism. It helps me to keep my head on straight if I try to put BM's behaviors in perspective. It doesn't mean that I agree with how she acts, I just try to see things from her point of view and how she chooses to respond. I helps me to be more excepting of the situation I guess. And I feel less anger if I keep some compassion for her.

And I was thinking more on the "smugness". Maybe the next lesson I should work on is self-validation. I know what is the truth and how BM really is (or can be). Those who love SO an I know as well. That should be enough. I know I too often want others to know "how BM really is", and I think its to feel validated for how I feel about her. Or maybe validation for what we went through and continue to go through. But maybe if I work on self-validation, I won't care who does or doesn't know the "truth" about BM and there will be no moment of smugness when the mask slips off.

And I thought it would be a relief once SD was Out of the FOG, but it's the same conflicted feelings you describe. She has a lot to process. She feels a lot of guilt. It makes me feel bad for all the times I thought "I wished she'd see her mother the way we do". I think overall it's better with her knowing as she can't be manipulated or used as often. I just always thought this was the end game and there's so much more healing that needs to be done. This is just the beginning of another chapter. Sorry for the brief hijack, PL.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi Athene,

I agree with the validation part, no doubt.  I think there is often more, especially when the kids are younger.  For us, if 3rd parties did not see BM for what she was, she was extremely successful in stripping parenting rights away from DH.  I think that fear, more than anything else for me, is what is reduced when others don't buy her act. 

Now I know DSS sees through BM, but DSD doesn't.  So even at this very moment we have an issue that DSD will not see through BM and she is going to come to our home tomorrow enraged.  I know DSS will see it for face value and won't care, so my stress is minimal there, but with DSD....she buys BM's act hook, line and sinker and there will likely be a battle.  BM is always right, and we are always wrong. 

So validation is nice, but it's also safe.

[Penny Lane]

SL I totally agree and I definitely wish that a judge or a social worker had seen the same side of BM that the school moms have seen! There is definitely an element of safety to it. And I'm sorry you have to dread an angry DSD, that is so tough, I know because we've had our share of exchanges where we KNEW the kids would be upset and there was nothing to do but spend tons of emotional energy on calming them down.

Athene, I am right there with you on how heartbreaking it is to watch the kids come Out of the FOG. Yes, I want them to see their mom as she is so they can set boundaries and have the healthiest relationship possible. But it's not fun to watch them learn it! It comes with deep wounds that are not easy to heal. You are right that this is not the end game, it's just the beginning. It feels right now like there is no end, the kids will be dealing with this forever and we're always going to have to be helping them.

Last night DSS really angrily accused DH of favoring DSD. (DSS is the current SG at BM's house.) DH was really taken aback and kind of offended and started explaining that of course he doesn't have a favorite child. Then DSS said "well some other parents have favorites, I've experienced it at other houses." And then he caught himself and was like "not me personally I mean at friends' houses." ie, he has noticed that BM strongly favors DSD. I said "Look, some parents pick favorites. That is a sign of bad parenting, and it doesn't reflect on the kids at all. If a kid knows they're not their parent's favorite, that doesn't mean they're bad, it means the parent is not doing a good job. But, in this case, your dad isn't picking favorites, he had to mediate a dispute and he he happened to agree with your sister this time."

So it seems that DSS has realized that BM has clear favorites and it starting to be able to articulate that. But how sad is that? There is nothing we can do to make that pain go away, that's going to take years of therapy and healing and work.

[Boat Babe]

Step-parenting is outside of my experience and I imagine it's not an easy gig at the best of times. Add an ex who has a PD and the mind boggles.
I just wanted to say how moved I was reading about how you were supporting your SOs and the step children. You guys will be the resilience factors in those children's lives. Studies in Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) show that having a supportive, validating and consistent adult around, even when there's trauma, allows the child to build resilience. I even think it's what allows a child to hold on to their "true selves" in comparison to PDs who construct a false self in reaction to ACEs. You are doing an invaluable job people!  ❤️

[Penny Lane]

Thank you Boat Babe! That is very kind.

[Penny Lane]

I'm kind of wondering if there's more than just this one email because now it seems that all the moms in this club don't even bother including BM in text/email threads anymore, even about not club related stuff. Is it possible that she's behaved so badly toward other parents that they're purposely avoiding her unless they absolutely have to talk to her? Or would occam's razor tell us that it's more that they're busy and her number isn't even in most of their phones and they already know DH responds so they just don't bother seeing her out?

Either way, I'm so relieved that SD isn't being shut out of stuff just because her mom is so rude to people! At least she can participate half the time.

[athene1399]

I am glad that SD is able to participate regardless of BM burning her bridges. 

[Penny Lane]

So, the PS to all this is that apparently DSD's best friend at school started asking her if she was going to come to the meetings. So she would go home and ask BM about going to the meetings. BM didn't say anything to DH but we learned that I guess she must have asked to be put back on the list because DSD was at the last couple meetings! So, happy ending and I'm glad that DH mostly took himself out of it.

I'm especially relieved because I think the longer BM took herself out of it, the harder psychologically it would be to ask to be put back on the list. Or to participate in the next thing. I was a little worried that it would build in her mind and she would eventually feel like DSD shouldn't ever participate in anything.