My health and my M's health

[Thru the Rain]

I had an aha moment recently regarding my health and my M's health.

As a child I suffered from significant medical neglect.

At the pediatrician, I recall my M rolling her eyes and shaking her head at the doctor when I was asked about symptoms - causing the doctor to disbelieve me and not give me treatment for problems I clearly had.

I broke my wrist rollerskating at around 10 years old. M didn't believe me and sent me to school the next day. She was furious when the school made her come get me and she had to take me to the doctor. She did nothing to help me manage my cast (at 10 years old!) and made sure I understood what a burden I was to her. My childhood is full of similar situations, often leading to me getting very, very sick due to delayed medical attention.

When I aged out of going to a pediatrician, I wasn't taken to ANY doctor on a regular basis. My M just plain didn't establish a relationship with a family doctor for us. I had a bunch of health issues as a teen that were just ignored and have had significant life-long implications for me.

Some of these lingering health problems have resulted in multiple hospitalizations. When I was finally responsible for my own health in my early 20's, suddenly M was interested in Every Single Detail. She had crazy, self-centered reactions - sometimes claiming she just couldn't stop crying, and other times literally laughing when learning I was back in the hospital. And sometimes repeating my own experiences back to me years later, but substituting herself as the patient. The last one, really takes the cake!

I finally have stopped sharing ANY details - major diagnoses only, and starting now I'm not planning to even share diagnoses. I was recently diagnosed with thyroid cancer - and I'm going to be fine - it was stage 1, caught early, and I'm now considered cancer free. But my M aggressively dug and probed for details, all while telling me *she* just can't take any more so I'd better be OK.  Sure Mom, I was planning on a lingering death, but I'll tell them I need to get better since *YOU* can't take it.

So now to my aha moment. My M was recently diagnosed with a serious eye condition that resulted from her failure to take her blood pressure medicine. This is the same woman who gave herself a perforated ulcer by taking Aleve like they were aspirin (2 tablets every 4 hours - when the instructions say 1 every 12 hours). She refuses to wear compression socks which were prescribed for fainting spells, she won't wear her hearing aids (and won't ask for things to be repeated leading to some eye-crossing conversations with her), she won't use her c-pap but complains that she just can't seem to sleep (said with her 4th or 5th cup of afternoon coffee in hand), she chews any prescription meds rendering most of them useless (since modern coatings allow the pills to hit the exact right spot in the digestive tract where they want the pill to be absorbed).

I realized that while M seems to be taking better care of herself than she ever took care of her children, she actually is self-sabotaging all the medical care she gets. So she goes to the doctor, but it's a complete waste of time. She's just as medically neglectful of herself as she was of me as a child.

I'm not sure where this leaves me, and I'm still thinking it over. For a long time I considered asking (confronting) her about my childhood medical neglect. But now I can see even more clearly this would be a pointless discussion. I had always assumed the problem was that she ONLY took care of herself, but now I see she doesn't even do that, and probably never did.

It's just occurred to me that she has a similar disconnect when it comes to her hair. She never figured out what to do with her hair. For the last 25 years or so, she's settled into a cross between "I give up" and "I fried my own hair at home by over coloring, and now it's a brillow pad". As a child, she would let my horrible Aunt give me what I called a "boy hair cut". Very traumatizing and not at all flattering. When I was old enough to babysit and make some of my own money, paying for an actual salon to cut my hair was top of my list.

I guess I can be glad that I didn't inherit her view of me, which was not important enough to be taken care of.  And I'm a little sad to realize that's how she views herself.

[BeanerJane]

I think you're spot on to not share your medical information with her.  Seems like she has inappropriate reactions to your health struggles so I would keep that part quiet and separate.  As far as her poor management of her own health (and hair) - well, she is an adult.  She makes choices about how what medical advice to follow and when those impact her negatively it's a reasonable outcome for her CHOICE.  That doesn't mean you have to swoop in and help or fix anything.  It's a thing that's happening to her and she can manage it.  Or not. 

Hoping you have a support system that provides stability and positivity.  Hugs.

[SunnyMeadow]

That was hard to read Thru the Rain. Medical neglect goes against all we're supposed to do in caring for a child. I'm sorry you went through that.

Very smart not to share your medical issues and diagnoses with her. They just want the drama and sympathy that goes with it. My uNPDm thrived on the cancer and eventual death of someone close to her. She still whips out how hard it was and how NO ONE helped her through it, all while discarding the people directly dealing with it. Truly despicable.

I agree with BeanerJane, your mother is an adult and choosing not to be proactive in her health care or hair care and that's ok. Same with my mother, she loves everyone else's medical issues but doesn't go to a doctor for her own. I've said things in the past about going to a doctor but haven't in many years. She's a grown up and isn't caring for herself.    Weird to me but oh well.

I'm glad you didn't inherit her view of you too! I always appreciate your posts and good advice. 

[nanotech]

Poor you going to school with a broken wrist!
Then, her making you feel like burden is terrible.

My parents wouldn't take me to the dentist. I can't remember going until I was 12. They thought dentists ' conned people'.  They had  check ups themselves though. They told me children didn't need them.

The hair thing! Because of one time when I said my hair was making me feel hot ( we were in a hot country at the time) - after that I was forever given a boy's haircut. People would mistake me for a boy!
When I was 12 my brother was born ( the first and only boy who became the golden child).
After that  I seemed to be allowed to grow my hair. Yep I was the token boy till a real one came along. Plus mum never liked the competition.

Due to the neglect, I've had problems with my teeth since youth. I had to have 4 second molars removed and several fillings. It was all done on one day. Then mum and me  to get a taxi home with me sobbing because I had a reaction to the general anaesthetic and also the pain on waking.
I think the idea was for us to come home on the bus. We ended up in a taxi with my mum panicking because I kept crying.
I was a quiet kid so it was surprising to her. I felt so aware that I was being a nuisance to both my parents, and that I'd embarrassed them.
My dad never took a day off work for anything child related.
I've had a capped front tooth from an early age. It's just had to be re done. 
The problems were picked up at a school examination. I can still hear the shocked voices of all the dentists ( there were several in school that day) who all came to have a look at the terrible condition my mouth was in.
I'd had no pain because my dad, through his job, had access to dental anaesthetic cream. It was strong stuff, and it worked. It's the same stuff  doctors spray your throat with if they are going to put a camera down and take a peek inside.
Dad told recently me ( with glee)that it's actually on the poisons list. He still likes to talk about how he had access to it. I didn't realise until recently that its use enabled my teeth  to continue to rot in my head for years. Sometimes pain is useful.  Especially around such parents as I had.

Out it used to come,
like toothpaste.

Then out came my teeth. 

Their reaction to the school note stating the problemsc, was almost to blame me.
They were indignant and thought the dentist was 'wrong'. 
At no time did I see any concern for me- certainly no remorse.
Plus  apparently  they thought I was getting pain from ' baby teeth wobbling and falling out.'
No one thought to check my mouth, and dental checks were deemed unnecessary. 
If they'd had primary school checks then, it would have been spotted earlier.( I'm 61) I'd just started high school. The welfare checks at school were just beginning.

Now, fast forward to today, and  my dad rings me and bleats that even though there's a pandemic, he must have a dental check up. He NEEDS a dental check up!
Strangely enough, I'm not chasing that up for him.
I'm very glad you are cancer free. Yes your mum made it all about her,  just like my dad would. I had investigations in the past and I haven't told him until I've known the outcome.
They seem not to forgive us for simply being flesh and blood, vulnerable and at times in need of care. They were responsible for us when we were children. Now we are adults they seem to view our continuing fallibility as some sort of affront to their ego. I guess it threatens their need to feel superior to others. I don't know.
Conversely, dad now displays extreme health anxiety for himself . He fusses a great deal over his own health. He wants me to fuss too.
I can honestly say that I care more than he did.

[Thru the Rain]

BeanerJane, SunnyMeadow and nanotech,

Thank you for your kind words and support. It's really hard to share this stuff - shockingly hard. So many times I've started to post, and then erased it all before hitting Post.

Just when I think I've gotten a pretty good handle on how to deal with uPD parents, life throws me a reminder that they will never be the parents I may have wished for. With the cancer craziness, I finally had a response ready in my head for the next round of wailing. I was planning to tell M that I'm not responsible to make HER feel better about MY health. Even now it feels good to have that ready to say.

But I think she got some secret vibe - or maybe just my fed up tone next time I talked with her - and she just plain stopped with the emotional overreactions. And there won't be a next time, she's on an information diet from now on.

nanotech - I had totally repressed my dental experiences from childhood. I'm so sorry to hear what you went through. That is such a hurtful way to treat a child. And for you Dad to continue to gloat is crazy-making! I'm sure he's the one and only person surprised that you're not taking care of his dental issues!

I did go to the dentist as a child. But my M wouldn't pay for any novacaine or anesthesia. What sort of dentist drills on small children with no pain killers you ask? The sadistic monster my M chose for our dentist. Luckily (I guess) I stopped being taken to the dentist around the same time M stopped taking me to the doctor. And yes, we had full health and dental insurance. We used to see my uncle for eye exams since he was an opthalomogist. But he died when I was around 12 and I never had another eye exam until I was old enough to be responsible for myself.

But the dentist......as you can imagine I had to work up a lot of courage for me to walk back into a dentist office. nanotech I'm sure you had similar reservations!

I finally had a referral to a dentist that everyone in my office loved. I made an initial appointment just to talk and discuss things. My teeth were in terrible shape by then and I needed a lot of work. This was well into my 30s. I continued to see that dentist for years until I moved away.

And just like your Dad, my M is facing a ton of dental work right now. She's in her late 70s, and my Dad is telling her she shouldn't get the work done, since she'll never live long enough for the use to justify the cost.  Where do these people come from?!?

[nanotech]

Oh my goodness- no painkillers? I can't believe it! 
What was your mum thinking? I also can't believe the dentist would do that!
Wow you did do well and you were brave to put that behind you later in life. Well done.

I've recently found a dentist  who is particularly good at making me feel relaxed. I had a lot of work done last year and I was fine.
I found myself for the first time  telling him about how I wasn't taken for check ups as a child. I told my hygienist too.
It was quite unburdening to tell someone else about it- it helped me somehow .
I was very matter of fact and non - emotional about it, you know. It wasn't a Waify  complaint- it was just a fact. When they  acknowledged what I had said, it of course made it real for me. And by telling it I knew that  I could move on from it. I was ready.
When things like that are given a nod, you know at least someone is accepting the reality of it with you.
That is a great big deal.

[WomanInterrupted]

I'm so sorry, TtR - and I think we had the same dentist.   

He said, straight-faced, "Children don't feel pain!"   

When he went on yet another deep-drilling mission on my molars, sans numbing, I elbowed him in the ribs SO hard that Didi and Ray were told to never bring me back.  They both pretended to act horrified for me, but they *knew* he didn't give numbing agents or pain relief to kids and had even laughed about it, but the only way to save face was act like they didn't know and THEY were the real victims! 

Like you, I was only given medical attention when Didi could bask in the praise of being the mother of a child who HID all her symptoms.

I didn't hide shit!  Didi chose to ignore me, or would come after me if she thought I'd make her or Ray miss work.  The doctor, ER or hospital were only on the table if she could play MOTY.  I was often a lot sicker than I might have been if somebody had just paid attention or listened - yet it was blamed on me.

Otherwise, I was faking - and she thought that because she was constantly exaggerating or faking symptoms for attention and/or to be hospitalized.

When I lived with Didi and Ray, neither one of them cared less about taking care of me, let alone managing medications I was prescribed or helping me get over illnesses/injuries - those were MY crosses to bear and since I'd gotten myself sick/hurt, it was my job to get myself well again.

Thankfully, I'd been doling out medication to my *grandparents* since I was 3, so at the age of 5, I was pretty competent at taking my own meds, as needed.   

I'm glad you're cancer free - and your mom is on an Information Diet! 

One of the FIRST things I thought was, "Thank God Didi is dead so I don't have to hide my diagnosis or explain this stuff to her.  I do NOT want to listen to her make it all about her, including fanning her face and wailing that she just can't taaaaake anymore, when I'm the one undergoing treatment."

ALL my medical problems were a personal affront to her, and caused he SO much distress that I was required to comfort, soothe and *reward* Didi. 

Yeah - I was the one with bronchitis, but I had to take HER shopping, buy her lunch, placate her and *prove* I was sick if she didn't believe me!

When I had pneumonia, she told *everybody* who'd listen that I didn't know how to take care of myself, I pushed myself too hard, I didn't have a lick of sense when it came to self-care - yet she'd wail that I couldn't keep doing this too her, it was TOO much, and she couldn't take anymore.   

I often wondered what would have have happened if I'd said, "Take any more of what?  You're not the one who is sick."   

Like your mom, Didi was awful when it came to her own care - she couldn't follow directions, forgot to refill her meds, forgot what the doctor said, didn't want to "bother" the doctor's office, and generally made a hash of things to the point she'd wind up at the ER and get some kind of well-meaning lecture about her own care, which meant the doctors and nurses were mean, cruel, hateful, out to get her and wanted to see her cry. 

She *did* get better about that when I was approaching my teens and was good through my 20's and even 30's (except for the, "Oh!  Why are you doing this to me!?  I can't take anymore!" when it came to my own problems) - but then she  decided she needed a MOMMY to care for her, I guess, and that mommy was going to be me.   

And dammit, I fell for it - for the longest time, I wondered HOW anybody could be SO damned incompetent when it came to their own care, and wondered if she was faking or full of it - my mind would only fleetingly touch on my childhood and how she acted, but once it did, I couldn't un-remember it.   

That's when I really started coming Out of the FOG - and letting Didi's problems land squarely on her shoulders, with NO information given about me or mine.   

Your mom can care - or not care - for herself.  If you suspect she's a danger to herself, you could call her doctor and suggest a competency test, but otherwise, I'd stay out of it - and keep her in the dark about you, since it might cause her to swoon, fan her face or work herself into a froth over nothing. 

[Adrianna]

I find it so sad yet validating that you all are sharing how the pd person turns another's illness into their own pity party. I truly think this is more of the Borderline trait coming out versus just narcissism. My father has no BPD traits (Unlike his mother) and I don't tell him about my health issues because quite honestly he doesn't care. Few years ago I had a biopsy and had to call my parents to get info on family medical history. They never even called to see how it went, what the results were, was I ok. I ended up calling to let them know I was ok and asked why didn't you call to ask?

"We didn't want to bother you."

Results that year were benign but following year were precancerous so I see an oncologist now and have regular checkups to make sure everything is good. I also take Tamoxifen. I don't tell him any of it. Why bother. He did eventually find out from someone that I see an oncologist and said he didn't know that. I said no I didn't tell you. He hasn't asked since for any updates on it and that was 2 years ago. Without the borderline mixed in with the narcissism, you don't see the drama. They just don't care.

I had a friend too who was a narc (no borderline traits) and he honestly couldn't have been any less interested in my medial issues if he had tried. Totally uninterested and had no concern or understanding of any of it. Complete indifference.

My grandmother of course is another story from my father and took great interest in others medical issues, because they were sooo hard for her, how could she handle them? I made the mistake of telling her at the time about a surgery I was having and I knew she told people about it although she lied and told me she didn't. I had proof she did. How could she not? She couldn't help herself. Her nephews wife had been going down to help her for the past few years while her husband (my grandmother's nephew) was undergoing cancer treatments. They wanted to tell my grandmother of his illness but I convinced her not to, as it would have been an added layer of stress in their lives. I said do you really want to have to reassure her and comfort her over your own husband's cancer? That's exactly what would have happened. They never told her and the nephew's wife understands now why I made that suggestion, although at the beginning she didn't. I saved her a lot of stress by convincing her to keep my grandmother in the dark on the issue. Her life would have been 20 times worse with the added stress of comforting my grandmother over her husband's illness.

I feel bad you have all gone through this and although it's validating to know others have gone through it, it's downright still unbelievable to me that people can be this self centered.

Sad for everyone affected by this honestly.

[nanotech]

Adrianna that's dreadful. It really is.
I get what you are saying about borderline adding drama/ self pity to the mix.
I've seen this happen in my own family.
Dad is a complete Narcissist. Mum was an enabling Borderline who sometimes had fleas. Sometimes mum saw through the BS and  was empathic for a time. It tended not to last. It was also often dependent upon whether I was doing what she wanted or not.
I'm sorry that your parents were, and are, like that. It was when you needed them the most.
My dad never wants to hear that I'm ill, so I don't tell him.
If he does find out he can't wait for me to be better- but that's all about him as well. He sees me as potential future carer material ( not happening) despite my chronic back / knee arthritis. 
When my arthritis started in my 30s, my parents didn't want to know. So much so that when I showed them the physical proof (knees becoming strangely shaped!) they looked away,  then abruptly changed the subject!
Neither of them have ever been kind to me about it. I think that's what hurts. It's the lack of caring that your child is hurting.
Now I'm in my sixties. My dad never asks me how my knees and back are. He knows I've got spinal stenosis, which can cause me great pain if I stand for too long.
I recently had to talk about my condition to a stranger ( I was signing up for some insurance) and the empathy he began to show, really took me by surprise and got me quite emotional.
Because it was a lot more than my own parents ever showed me.
Mum used to say only nasty people got arthritis. They gave it to themselves!
😔 sigh

Thru the rain, you wrote,

" I guess I can be glad that I didn't inherit her view of me, which was not important enough to be taken care of.  And I'm a little sad to realize that's how she views herself.

Me too on that one, although I nearly carried on the family tradition of self -neglect. Therapy and this forum have shown me that I'm worthy of self -care.
As is everyone.
My mum never valued her appearance. She would instead, 'save money' which would please my dad.
She would sometimes malinger to get attention from my dad, but then neglect herself when she was really ill. She told him she didn't care about what was written on her gravestone.
'Just write anything.'
Dad got to choose. He chose to omit her date of birth.
When I questioned that, he said it wasn't important,  because he didn't know her then. They hadn't met.
I'm damn sure my mum assumed her darn birthdate would go on there.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

[Adrianna]

Nano I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I too know what it feels like to have an acquaintance show more concern for you than your family. I also too have learned that self care is important and we need to finally value ourselves because we were taught to value others first.

I'm sorry your dad is so unconcerned but as you saw I get it. It's an awful feeling but knowing they really do not care is freeing. I'm guessing until you accepted it, you probably lived in frustration and disappointment as well when dealing with him. I have as little to do with my father as possible since although I know the truth, he can still throw me a breadcrumb here and there to make me think maybe he cares. I know he doesn't though. The less I have to do with him the better. I even asked him once outright if he cares about me and my son and I got

Silence

Then "well you know....."

I ended the conversation.

Narcissists truly don't care and it's absolutely not personal.

My mother died three years ago but I'm seeing now how living with my father no doubt had a negative effect on her already existing mental health issues. She had nothing to give me or anyone in terms of emotional support. She was sadly a shell of a person and had lost her core personality. That's not uncommon for partners of narcissists. In order to stay in the "relationship", they have to empty themselves of any need to be heard, respected, appreciated or loved. That's what my mother did on top of her possible schizophrenia ot schizotypal disorder.  Towards the end she honestly didn't seem to care if she lived or died. It was tragic. At the end the dr basically asked if she wanted to continue with the medication or stop, leading to death in a couple of days, and she didn't even answer. Said nothing. I turned to the dr and said let's keep trying. The dr had tears in her eyes during that meeting. My mother had neglected her health for many years. Her illness wasn't avoidable but she could have had a better quality of life those last few years if she had seen doctors or accepted medical care.   I had learned to expect nothing from her as a mother and don't blame her for it.  I know now what a toll living with a narcissist does to someone.

I find this particularly interesting from your post :

"When I questioned that, he said it wasn't important,  because he didn't know her then. They hadn't met. "

What a perfect yet shocking example of narcissism! She may as well have not even existed before they met as she had no use to him back then. They treat people as extensions of themselves, here to serve, no use for them otherwise.

[Boat Babe]

What a hard but useful thread. Thank you, all, for sharing. Breathtakingly bad, bad behaviour from our parents. But also such hard earned wisdom, empathy, compassion, emotional intelligence and courage from all of you.

This is the best forum I've ever been on ❤️

[Psuedonym]

The self-pity can actually be a narcissist trait, but of the covert variety. I make this distinction because I at first believed M to be Borderline, but some of her behaviors didn't fit. Psychologist suggested she might be N, and when I said that she didn't have the grandiose sense of self/ego, she explained that that's overt narcissism. Instead of the overt narcissist's belief that they are the greatest, a covert narcissist's belief can be: my suffering is the greatest, I am the biggest victim, the rules don't apply to me because of my suffering. If you are suffering, they are suffering more. Its always about them.

Again I only make this distinction because when I finally realized that M was most likely a covert narcissist (or overlapping with borderline) it cleared up a lot of confusion I had about her behavior that didn't really align with BPD.

[nanotech]

Crikey, these experiences.
What was what is, so wrong with just loving us?
That's it.
That's all.
That's everything.

[Adrianna]

The self-pity can actually be a narcissist trait, but of the covert variety. I make this distinction because I at first believed M to be Borderline, but some of her behaviors didn't fit. Psychologist suggested she might be N, and when I said that she didn't have the grandiose sense of self/ego, she explained that that's overt narcissism. Instead of the overt narcissist's belief that they are the greatest, a covert narcissist's belief can be: my suffering is the greatest, I am the biggest victim, the rules don't apply to me because of my suffering. If you are suffering, they are suffering more. Its always about them.

Again I only make this distinction because when I finally realized that M was most likely a covert narcissist (or overlapping with borderline) it cleared up a lot of confusion I had about her behavior that didn't really align with BPD.

I agree with this but also want to add an overt narcissist can also swing into the Medical self pity. My overt narc ex friend and my father both would whine about any illnesses they had, and how they had them worse than anyone else on the planet, and they were deserving of all the attention and sympathy we could give them for these illnesses, all the while giving absolutely none to anyone else who was ill.  It was pretty shocking behavior as they had nothing to offer in terms of emotional support to anyone else who was ill and they saw nothing wrong with that.

Covert narcissists are a whole other breed and no doubt they can use the medical pity party for attention. They can be tricky because they appear from the outside to be caring people. Victims of covert narcs truly suffer a special kind of pain because with an overt narc most (not all, they can be highly charming when first meeting someone), people know they are arrogant and uncaring. Not so with a covert narc who can appear to be one thing and is actually something else.

The difference I saw with my grandmother's BPD is she used a lot more manipulation, guilt tripping, faking illnesses, and attention seeking dramatic behavior in this regard. She would lie about what the doctor said and spin it to be far more dire than it was, whether she heard what she wanted to hear or lied on purpose, I don't know. I just figured out that if I wanted the truth about the outcome of a dr appointment, and I wasn't there, I'd ask the doctor or whoever brought her to the appointment to get the full story. Her version was never based on reality. With her bpd traits there was an extreme fear of abandonment. She hates to be alone. Thinks it's torture. My father and ex friend live alone and see nothing wrong with it. There's no fear of abandonment there. A lot of the frantic, dramatic, chaotic behaviors from BPD are not present with a pure narcissist. My father expects attention and sometimes goes into manipulation to get it (will exaggerate an illness) but not to the extreme, dramatic, sometimes outrageous level my grandmother did.

Nano you are right, love ourselves. It really comes down to learning that we matter. I'm almost 50 so it took me a long time.

Boat babe I'm glad you are finding the forum useful! We have all learned from each other. If you're looking for empowerment check out woman interrupted's posts. She's a role model for how to tackle these pd infested waters we find ourselves in and learning to love and value ourselves. Strong lady.