Horrific story...

[Fuzzydog]

Relieved333, your story, and others like it on this thread, have prompted me to start taking real measures in the event that my FOO tries to pull this crap when my 96 year old NM passes. I appreciate so much that you all have shared this so I can start to talk to some of the peripheral people that would be notified, but that no one would think to swear to secrecy.
You are all so brave, I am grateful to be here with such a collection of wise and strong people.
Thank you.
And really, doesn't it all just suck so much that we have to have these conversations in the first place?

[Call Me Cordelia]

I too have a "mole" in my parents' circle to tell me if anybody dies. It's totally normal! 

I'm really really sorry you are going through this Relieved. You've been given really good advice. It's all dysfunction, and it's all them. My experience is more with the death hoover, but from where I'm sitting it looks like two sides of the same coin, and it's a toss-up which part of the cycle of abuse they land on at any given time.

[Relieved333]

Thanks again, Peanut Butter! You're correct about everything.

"After choosing to NOT make amends with you M darvo'd and smeared you to extended family. She acted as if she and F are the ones who have been wronged. F is now continuing that since she has passed by claiming you dont call him?"
—-Yup, I know I will get all the blame. I would be asking to be punished if I call him.

I don't know why I keep going over past conversations and scenarios with my parents in my head. I know I said a couple of hurtful things although this was mostly after I experienced their wrath. I will say that I did not say even close to the nasty things my mother, father and sister have said to me.
My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are." 

I did not respond to that. I only asked her if she's finished.

But I'm still trying to figure out why she and my father did this. Like what was her goal?! She was dying... how can someone take this to the grave? And how can they force and make my relatives promise not to say anything?

I haven't spoken to my parents in 3 years. I didn't say anything remotely harsh the last time I saw them. We actually drove to their home which was 2 hours away before we moved across the country. We did this because we felt it was the right thing to do. Did they call to see how the move went, nope. Did they call to see how my children have settled into their new schools? Nope. And a couple relatives told me how much she loved my children.
My father emailed weeks later and only said "it's been too long". I emailed back telling them what's going on in our lives and no response. They sent one more email about something else weeks later. I responded and yet again, no reply back.

What did they want from me?!

I know 3 years is a long time but is it really that long? I guess it felt like it flew by.

Why would they do this? I know I will get over this eventually. It's still new. I do feel better because I have been getting great support from my close friends, and of course from my husband.

Do I call my aunts, uncles and cousins on my dad's side. Is it odd that not one of them has sent a text, card or anything?
One relative told me my uncle recently had surgery... do I call him?

Thanks again for your advice.

[Relieved333]

Yes, Fuzzydog... this site is great. I'm glad you are well-prepared with your FOO. I truly hope it works out for you. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

Thanks, Call Me. It is all so confusing and cruel.

[PeanutButter]

[

1/ I don't know why I keep going over past conversations and scenarios with my parents in my head. I know I said a couple of hurtful things although this was mostly after I experienced their wrath. I will say that I did not say even close to the nasty things my mother, father and sister have said to me.

2/ My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are." 
I did not respond to that. I only asked her if she's finished.

3/ But I'm still trying to figure out why she and my father did this. Like what was her goal?! She was dying... how can someone take this to the grave? And how can they force and make my relatives promise not to say anything?
I haven't spoken to my parents in 3 years. I didn't say anything remotely harsh the last time I saw them. We actually drove to their home which was 2 hours away before we moved across the country. We did this because we felt it was the right thing to do. Did they call to see how the move went, nope. Did they call to see how my children have settled into their new schools? Nope. And a couple relatives told me how much she loved my children.
My father emailed weeks later and only said "it's been too long". I emailed back telling them what's going on in our lives and no response. They sent one more email about something else weeks later. I responded and yet again, no reply back.
What did they want from me?! .

4/ I know 3 years is a long time but is it really that long? I guess it felt like it flew by.
Why would they do this? I know I will get over this eventually. It's still new. I do feel better because I have been getting great support from my close friends, and of course from my husband.
Do I call my aunts, uncles and cousins on my dad's side. Is it odd that not one of them has sent a text, card or anything?
One relative told me my uncle recently had surgery... do I call him?

Forgive me for putting more than just my 2 cents in. Disregard anything I say that is not relevant.
But I wanted to answer your additional question. My heart has such compassion for you! The things I say are the things that I wish someone would have told me.

1/You go over it in your head because you care. You care if you made mistakes. You care about your foo's pain.

2/ Your M was projecting. She was describing herself to you. She didn know that. She said "listen to yourself" but she was the one talking! Can you see it if you read the bolded? Also she was trying to bait you into a reaction that would prove what she felt since the day you were born was justified. Your M admitted that the hate was all coming from her in that rant!

3/ They wanted you to get back in your role. They wanted you to take the blame for all the disfunction so they could be absolved. The only goal of PD persons of this type is to protect the false self.

4/ This is best if you only allow loving people to surround you. That is healthy! Calling people because you feel obligated by blood ties only but have no recipricol relationship with is ime what continues the enabling of pwPD to have endless supply in their FOO /extended Family.

Maybe if you can sit with the emotions instead of act on any that would be best.
There is nothing you need to do! You can just be. Live and let live. Take care of yourself. Post here constantly if you need to. Dont act on impulses to 'perform' what you think you are 'supposed' to do in the minds of some enmeshed/abusive persons!

With LOVE
PB

[PeanutButter]

I thought about you some more while I was at work.
Specifically this right here:

There were times when I thought they were jealous but not of the relationship between my children and me. But looking back, maybe they were.
My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are."

She said: "From the day you were born she thought you was the worst daughter" You were AN INFANT!  Having just been born from her body, they would have laid you on her chest? She would have looked at you all helpless and innoccent? and then at some point that very day she thought  "you was the worst daughter"!?!? HOW? WHY?

The reason I point this out is because this is not uncommon with estranged parents, abusive parents, mentally ill neglective parents. IMO I have heard a version of this same story many, many, many times. It goes like this: that the parent is loving, sacrificial, and mentally healthy and the child (now an adult) is ungrateful, spiteful, and disordered. The story continues that the parent KNEW something was wrong from the very beginning, at birth, in the hospital, or very early when brought home or when sibling was born, and so forth. The child described as: was hard to handle, cried all the time, was extra sensitive, was demanding, raged at the parent, and just always caused the parent trouble its whole life starting as an infant?!?!

Not only is this retoric a massive red flag it also contains truth leaks ime.

The expertise (literature, articles, manuals, websites for treatment,etc.) describes the same as indications of a problem with the mother not attaching normally to her infant. This can be from the mother's mental illness, post partem depression, personality disorder, drug addiction, and etc.
The expertise also describes the 'pattern of the projection process' of a parent that scapegoats a child which matches this rehtoric also.

So if your M could not attach normally to you when you were born because of personality disorder; instead of awareness of her inner state, (her emotions/thoughts/innervoice) she misinterpreted your cries, (crying is the only way the infant can get their needs met) projected her denied anger, disappointment, fears etc. onto you, and then she may very well have been jealous of your healthy attachment to your children when she witnessed it because it held a 'mirror of clarity' up to her. imo.

[Call Me Cordelia]

This this this!!! I too was difficult from my infancy according to my mother. When I was being hovered/love bombed, it was supposedly a sign of intelligence. Otherwise it was just a bludgeon that something has always been wrong with me and my mother is a saint to have put up with me and the sole source of problems is ME not my abusive parents.

Also the description of my colic got more and more dramatic the more friction there was in the moment. And you can't argue it, because you don't remember! And yet, I'm the one who doesn't know how to "let things go"!!! 

[LemonLime]

[

1/ I don't know why I keep going over past conversations and scenarios with my parents in my head. I know I said a couple of hurtful things although this was mostly after I experienced their wrath. I will say that I did not say even close to the nasty things my mother, father and sister have said to me.

2/ My mother told me, "I was the worst daughter. I have thought this since the day you were born. I always wanted to say that and I'm telling you this for your own good."  My response "Sure, mom." Her response while gasping, "Listen to yourself. Can you hear yourself?! Not caring at all with what I have to say. You being the lousy and vindictive daughter that you are." 
I did not respond to that. I only asked her if she's finished.

]

1.  I agree with PB, it's because you care.  I do the same thing and it's why I'm getting therapy.  To try to stop the ruminating.  Confessing my not-so-nice transgressions to my therapist has been helpful.  None of us is perfect.  Ironic, though, isn't it, that we're the one going to therapist....

2.  One of the best things I've learned about BPD's and probably also covertN's is this:   They make the crime fit the punishment.
Let that sink in if you will.
They make the CRIME fit the PUNISHMENT.

Their first "response" (reaction, really) is always EMOTION.   It's a reflex.  No thinking, just emotion.
Then, they on some level realize they have reacted very emotionally/punishing  to something you have said or done. 
Many of them will experience a level of cognitive dissonance......their reaction was huge, the offense was small.

A healthy person would resolve this dissonance by apologizing for their outsized reaction.  Then the 'punishment' would fit the 'offense'..
But PD's can't apologize due to their fragile self-image.
So in order to resolve the cognitive dissonance, they inflate your "crime" to fit their already-delivered "punishment".

Once my sister has raged at me, she will start flinging the kitchen sink at me in terms of  my "offenses".  Stuff from 40 years ago even.   Stuff I don't remember.
Stuff seemingly unrelated to the current situation.
I do think she is trying to make "sense" of her own reaction, twisted as that all is.  If she can make Kat bad and deserving of a rage, well then she can't be seen as bad for having a rage.

It has helped me to understand that and depersonalize it.   I have on one occasion even been able to be amused by her resourcefulness in finding old sh@$ to fling at me, sort of like a monkey would fling poop.

Once I realized this, though, I think I lost hope of ever having the warm relationship with my sister that I thought I had.   Her rages, which I had formerly seen as sort of a "quirk" if you will, now appear to me to be the death knell of our relationship.    It made me realize that unless she gets serious therapy she will always have rages.   When she has rages she needs to find someone to be wrong/evil.   That evil person will never be her.    Because it won't be her, it will be me.   So I will always be raged at and blamed.   
So I am being asked to choose myself and truth, or choose her and lies.     I choose me.   But since she's set it up so I can't have both, I will lose her.


Just me 2 cents.  Hope it might help.

[PeanutButter]

[Their first "response" (reaction, really) is always EMOTION.   It's a reflex.  No thinking, just emotion.
Then, they on some level realize they have reacted very emotionally/punishing  to something you have said or done.
Many of them will experience a level of cognitive dissonance...

YES! YES! Thanks kat1984.

Relieved333, this further explains what the mentally unwell mother may experiences when she sees her infant or hears her infant cry. She 'feels' no love, she feels disappointed, frustrated, angry, and 'justified' so she creates a 'crime' (the child is: 'off' 'not right' 'different') to fit the 'punishment' (mother has: no attachment, no love) she is giving her baby.

The baby can 'feel' the mothers agitation so any 'soothing' efforts done are superficial and have the underlying negativity simmering just below the surface. Babies are naturally intuitive to their mother. So baby 'catches' mother's resentment and may sometimes cry harder!
Eventually the child (when older) may even 'mirror' back to the mother that negativity. The mother is in denial that she has any 'negative' emotions so she sees the childs mirroring as evidence that the child is 'bad'. Which reinforces her belief that the 'crime' happened before the 'punishment' and the 'punishment' happened because of the 'crime.' Nothing is her fault!

You are a good enough daughter and sister! You deserved to be protected! You literally had NOONE in your FOO or extended FAM stand up for you. Years of triangulation, smearing, and all manner of planning and manipulating to ensure that everyone would stand together against you for M drove that .

The FOO and extended family have shown you who they are! No matter what you did or didnt do, imo and ime they only wanted your submission to M's narrative.

[Seven]

[Their first "response" (reaction, really) is always EMOTION.   It's a reflex.  No thinking, just emotion.
Then, they on some level realize they have reacted very emotionally/punishing  to something you have said or done.
Many of them will experience a level of cognitive dissonance...

YES! YES! Thanks kat1984.

Relieved333, this further explains what the mentally unwell mother may experiences when she sees her infant or hears her infant cry. She 'feels' no love, she feels disappointed, frustrated, angry, and 'justified' so she creates a 'crime' (the child is: 'off' 'not right' 'different') to fit the 'punishment' (mother has: no attachment, no love) she is giving her baby.

The baby can 'feel' the mothers agitation so any 'soothing' efforts done are superficial and have the underlying negativity simmering just below the surface. Babies are naturally intuitive to their mother. So baby 'catches' mother's resentment and may sometimes cry harder!
Eventually the child (when older) may even 'mirror' back to the mother that negativity. The mother is in denial that she has any 'negative' emotions so she sees the childs mirroring as evidence that the child is 'bad'. Which reinforces her belief that the 'crime' happened before the 'punishment' and the 'punishment' happened because of the 'crime.' Nothing is her fault!

My god. This just hit home in a big way.  Like I'm in tears.

My uNPDm, when she gets called out on bad stuff she says/does such as telling me how horrible I looked at my sons wedding, goes on to say "but, but I love all my...." and then literally trails off.  This has happened more than once.  Not an isolated incident and not isolated to just me.  She obviously resents having had girls, and me most specifically because she "thought she was going to have a life after Bro6"  so being a girl in the family is the crime.  The fact that I was even born AND a girl...well, it makes sense.  I'm the worst perp of all.  Still upsetting and kind of hard not to take personally, but makes sense.

You know, because if you actually did love all your kids, you wouldn't say nasty shit about them to their face, let alone behind their backs.

[PeanutButter]

Im incredibly sorry. I should have put a trigger warning.
Im deeply sympathetic.
I experienced this.
When I learned of 'lack of attachment' and the 'projection process' I finally understood why ubpdM despised me.
Thats why I shared it.
Love and hugs to ALL

[Relieved333]

Peanut Butter... again, thank you! Amazing information and help.

"Your M was projecting. She was describing herself to you."
--- Yes, she did this a lot. She would tell me "Talking to you is like walking on eggshells"! Although, I was the one who needed to be extra cautious.

"They wanted you to get back in your role. They wanted you to take the blame for all the dysfunction so they could be absolved. The only goal of PD persons of this type is to protect the false self."
--- Correct. Every time I stuck up for myself or pointed out the hurt they caused me, they twisted it back onto me. I was wrong to respond and hold them accountable.

"This is best if you only allow loving people to surround you. That is healthy! Calling people because you feel obligated by blood ties..."
--- I have been in touch with my extended relatives on both sides over the years. I'm shocked no one has contacted me on my father's side. It feels awful. I do still feel that "pull" to call them. 

"She said: "From the day you were born she thought you was the worst daughter" You were AN INFANT! "you was the worst daughter"!?!? HOW? WHY? This can be from the mother's mental illness, post-pardem depression, personality disorder..." 
--- Exactly. I think you might be onto something. Maybe she did have postpartum depression? I know she had to have a PD. Maybe she thought I was a difficult baby? She was abused by my father both emotionally and physically(at times). My father did this to me as well. It was a horrible house to grow-up in. There were good times, more so when the entire family got together, which makes things confusing. But I know my mom was insecure, fragile, scared, angry and possibly even hated herself. I don't know. I did put all this into account when trying to talk to her.

"You are a good enough daughter and sister! You deserved to be protected! You literally had NOONE in your FOO or extended FAM stand up for you. Years of triangulation, smearing, and all manner of planning and manipulating to ensure that everyone would stand together against you for M drove that."
--- Thank you! I can not believe how much control my mother, father and sister have. And the funny thing is, almost everyone knows how cold, difficult and cruel my father is. My sister is the golden child who is vicious, incredibly selfish and can do no wrong. Why did they favor her so much? Were they scared of her? They saw themselves in her and vice-versa?
My mother's brother recently told me that over the years he noticed my mother morphing into my father and sister. He said my father isn't a "family man".  My grandmother said she never liked my father. With knowing all of this... they STILL allowed them to have such power.

My sister and father were livid that I found out my mother died. My sister messaged every single family member asking who told me. When she found out, she yelled at this person saying this was my mother's "dying wish". My mother's side of family haven't spoken to them since. They all live close to each other so not sure how long it will last.

This wasn't a "dying wish". This was an act of cruelty and violence. No one can be this hateful. And what is my crime... moving farther away? Not responding to an email? Living my life how I see fit? My parents have my number. If they really wanted to make amends or show that they cared, they could have called, admitted they said/done hurtful things and asked how could they make things better. I know, wishful thinking.  Instead, they put ALL of the responsibility on me because in their minds they don't do anything wrong. They're the parents. I'm suppose to "Honor thy father and mother"(which my father always told me). I need to ask for forgiveness. I HAVE to forgive and move on even though they never admitted any fault. They would berate me over the phone and/or via email but I had to take it because it was for my own good. Did they ever acknowledge how harsh and awful that was? Of course not. But I pushed it under the rug and carried on with their normal. My feelings didn't matter. All this to keep the peace.

You know why my mother took her anger to the grave? It was because she would never see "her grandchildren" again. I asked a relative if she ever mentioned me... she said no. I was in the way. I was invisible. She wanted to push me aside and only have a relationship with my children. However, my parents had many opportunities to visit us when we lived closer. But they usually had an excuse. They came for a couple birthday parties, maybe a holiday or two and my mom did help for the first few weeks when our babies were born. She would drive to our house once a week and stay overnight. But she did say one time that I used her... there was always a price. My mother bought my children so much junk. She bought them 20 gifts each one Xmas. Gave them junk food. Undermined me in my own home because she was the "fun grandma". I'm sure she loved them but at the same time it felt like my children were props to her. She gave them so many toys, candy, snacks, etc to fulfill her needs. She loved their reactions.

I recently found out that I am out of my parents Will. No surprise really. My father said "She's not going to get one dime". I don't care about the money.

Kat1984, you're right..."One of the best things I've learned about BPD's and probably also covertN's is this:  They make the crime fit the punishment. Let that sink in if you will.
They make the CRIME fit the PUNISHMENT."
---What have I done to deserve such punishment? Nothing I did or said warrants this kind of cruelty and abuse. They created their own version of the truth to justify their punishment.

"A healthy person would resolve this dissonance by apologizing for their outsized reaction.  Then the 'punishment' would fit the 'offense'..
But PD's can't apologize due to their fragile self-image. So in order to resolve the cognitive dissonance, they inflate your "crime" to fit their already-delivered "punishment".
---THIS

"Once my sister has raged at me, she will start flinging the kitchen sink at me in terms of  my "offenses".  Stuff from 40 years ago even.   Stuff I don't remember.
Stuff seemingly unrelated to the current situation. I do think she is trying to make "sense" of her own reaction, twisted as that all is."
--- AND THIS. My god, every argument that I had with them they would bring-up things I said/did as a child, teenager and onwards.

With all that has happened, it still seems my family does allow them to be in control after all this. A relative asked if I called my father yet. What on earth am I suppose to say to this man??

Thank you all again for your advice and support. Much Love.

[PeanutButter]

Relieved333   
As we (Out of the FOG community) are sitting in our homes, at work, etc. connecting with each other through our wonderful devices (because other wise we wouldnt ever know each other) I want you to hear all our voices ( it will be your voice actually) saying this:

" Relieved333, I (peanut butter) have witnessed the abuse you suffered and continue to suffer. I witness the totally unjustified mistreatment, sadistic words and actions, and your continued refusal to give back anything even remotely retaliatory towards your attackers!
This speaks everything to who you are (good, loving, healthy, and whole) and evidences the vile nature of those you are dealing with (disordered to the highest malignancy).
I witness and validate the excruciating pain of your loss, deep loss, on multiple; physical, emotional, spiritual levels!
I see that YOU HAVE BROKEN THE CYCLE! You will not pass on to your children what you inherited from your parents."

Im so glad I'm here. Im so glad you are here. Because we deserve to be valued.

[Relieved333]

Thank you, Peanut Butter!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

A relative emailed for the first time in 3 months. Very brief asking how things are... no mention of my mother's death.

How do I respond?! I have to address the big elephant in the room, right?! This is so bizarre and just insane. 

[PeanutButter]

You dont need to respond imo.
Do you know if this is a relative that would know about your moms death?
If you know for sure they know it seems deceptive that they asked how you are without sending condolances imo.
I would also consider reviewing my memory for what type of interactions have been the norm for this relative. 'What kind of 'role' does she play inside the family?'
Think about it for as long as you need if you cant decide right now its ok to do nothing. In your circumstances this relative should certianly understand if you were not up to chit chatting with them if they dont that is a red flag too.
'What does it feel like the message is offering?'
If it is just a message 'seeking' information I dont find that appropriate ime.
If you respond give only info that they can not use against you or use for gossip.

[Relieved333]

Thanks again, PB.

This relative is actually the closest to my parents. I haven't talked to him in a few months. I sent a gift basket because his wife is ill. He then emailed to thank me and told me how she's doing. However, no mention of my mother which felt so eerily bizarre. ...the big fat elephant in the room.

I did email back saying how much I loved them and hope for a speedy recovery. I also said I'm sure you know that I found out about mother's death, that I was saddened by it and sad that she went to great lengths to keep it a secret, that I know she's in a better place.

It felt so so weird not to say anything. Throughout my entire life I pushed my hurt feelings under the rug, what my parents said and did to me, their verbal attacks, rage, criticisms with zero remorse ever from them... all to keep the peace within the family.

You're right though, they might use whatever I said against me, gossiping, etc. I can not win no matter what I do. Hopefully they won't respond with any blaming and shaming. They only heard my parent's side of the story and we all know how that goes.

I still can't believe they have gone to this extremity. There is no justification for it. Nothing I did or said warrants this level of hate and abuse.  And they still don't see it as such. It's impossible.

Thanks again for your help! 🙏🏻

[PeanutButter]

I think that was great response. I wouldnt have known of a way to reply without mentioning it either. IME That was a healthy and authentic communication.
I cant see how it could be used against you hopefully they were sincerely curious about whether you knew and if you were ok.