Having empathy

[SparkStillLit]

Updh said the weirdest thing the other day. He was pointing up how nmum has no empathy (it's true. She doesn't.)
He said that I have it, and ds does, and the he said that he has lots of it, so much that he has to hide it.
I thought, what a weird thing. To me, it' like breathing. I do not hide the fact that I breathe. Nor do I hide that I may have joy, or sadness, or upset, but empathy isn't an emotion, either. Why would you *hide* the ability to....place yourself in others' shoes, and how would one even go about hiding that? Doesn't it just.....make itself evident by your actions toward others, and in your words and behavior?
I was so weirded out by this that I've spent quite some time thinking on it. He seemed quite proud to have so much of it that it needed to be "hidden", too. Which then begged the question, what could he be confusing it with? Compassion? And why on earth would you want to hide THAT? What else??? Pity? I'm befuddled.

[Wilderhearts]

I find it's exceptionally common, especially among pwBPD, to conflate emotional reactions to others' emotions with empathy, to the extent that many pwBPD claim they are "empaths", without ever knowing the true meaning of empathy.  Empathy retains the focus on supporting someone else.  Yes, you emotionally recall your similar experiences, in life or your relationship with yourself, but your task as hand is drawing on your experience, and relating that to a person's current circumstances in a way that gives them insight, understanding, and support.  Empathy is about the other person.

"Empathy" from pwPDs is often just their feelings about others' feelings taking centre stage.  It's the big emotional reaction that overshadows your original feelings.  It's them performing an "appropriate" emotional reaction, but completely missing the mark. 

An example of this was when I had a mental health crisis.  I didn't want my crisis to be evident to my roommates, so I moved in with my mom for a week, then when I returned was extremely quiet and kept to myself.  So they wouldn't feel uneasy, I let them know my behaviour change was because I was struggling with my mental health, and nothing to do with them.

uOCPD roommate's reaction was to make a dramatized "sad face" with pouted lips and puppy eyes.  The same face a person would make if  mockingly saying "aw poor baby."  Except that was her sincere attempt at empathy/compassion.  It was such a grotesque, failed attempt at being sympathetic that I physically cringed.  She was in training to become a counsellor.

I know lack of empathy is a key trait of ASPD, but I think it's something that all pwPDs struggle with.  All your uPDh has to be proud of is that he's had some success in regulating the expressions of his emotional reactions - that's not empathy.  That's basic self-control.

[11JB68]

Wilder, I was thinking about something similar. Watching a TV show that we all enjoy and the main character is probably some type of comedic narc. Making such a show of sadness over a death and it reminded me so much of uocpdh

[PeanutButter]

I find it's exceptionally common, especially among pwBPD, to conflate emotional reactions to others' emotions with empathy, to the extent that many pwBPD claim they are "empaths", without ever knowing the true meaning of empathy.

This has been my experience also.

What it actually is IMO is enmeshment. If you get mad they get mad. If you are stressed they are stressed. That is enmeshment not empathy.

Give me attention "I am an empath". I am superior "I am an empath" statements. Let me explain why I am so awesome "I am an empath". All while not ever displaying or giving true empathy to the people they are saying "I am an empath" to.

I tend to believe that if someone is a certian way I will believe that when I experience it not when they tell me. Like how do you know when someone is honest? How do you know when someone is generous? It isn't when they tell you "I am honest." or "I am generous." It is when you experience the honesty or the generosity that you identify someone as those. So I beleive someone is an empath when I experience empathy from them NOT when they tell me or others that they have empathy or a are an empath.

[SparkStillLit]

That was my thought. It's just a thing you do or do not (I sound like Yoda). It's not something you go around thinking about or putting a bunch of effort into. I mean, you certainly DO, but not like, "oh. I better show empathy here. But not too much. I have so much, I better just show a little in this situation."
Noboby THINKS about it so much, or TALKS about it, (do they?), they just DO IT when it's called for, and it's not a finite resource! You don't need to *manage* it!
Once I got pissed at him because he was grinding me up about something, friends or something, and that I loved them. I finally lost my temper and shouted at him, "LOVE IS NOT A FINITE RESOURCE!!! YOU DON'T NEED TO BE STINGY WITH IT!!!! I can love EVERYONE and still have love left over!!!! If more people in the world would realize that, this would be a f@#k of a lot better place to live!!!!" He got silent and went away and I never heard about it again.

PB If I get mad, he gets maddER. If I am stressed, he is so much MORE stressed. He always ALWAYS elevates to the next level. In a scuffle, he does this as well, fast and hard to places I'm unwilling to go.

[clara]

Again, actions speaking louder than words.

I find it interesting how they can, over and over, declare themselves some type of champion emotional feelers, but when push comes to shove all of their talk comes to little or nothing.  It seems they often believe their lies, so maybe they actually think they have all this empathy because they've told themselves they have (even though they likely don't really know what it is, as others have stated, but think they do), so all that's left is convincing you.  And if they can convince you, then the lies becomes their reality.

[Wilderhearts]

PB If I get mad, he gets maddER. If I am stressed, he is so much MORE stressed. He always ALWAYS elevates to the next level. In a scuffle, he does this as well, fast and hard to places I'm unwilling to go.

I wonder if this has to do with the overdone performances of empathy.  I can really understand this in pwNPD, since their emotions always have to be the centre of everything - they are special in their pain, rage, sadness etc.  I see pwPDs equivocating anger to power - if they're angrier, they're bigger and more in control.  For pwOCPD, empathy can be the "Right" response in situations so they'd do it just to quell their anxiety...but is there a common denominator?  Is it simply about keeping the focus on themselves?

[PeanutButter]

PB If I get mad, he gets maddER. If I am stressed, he is so much MORE stressed. He always ALWAYS elevates to the next level. In a scuffle, he does this as well, fast and hard to places I'm unwilling to go.

I wonder if this has to do with the overdone performances of empathy.  I can really understand this in pwNPD, since their emotions always have to be the centre of everything - they are special in their pain, rage, sadness etc.  I see pwPDs equivocating anger to power - if they're angrier, they're bigger and more in control.  For pwOCPD, empathy can be the "Right" response in situations so they'd do it just to quell their anxiety...but is there a common denominator?  Is it simply about keeping the focus on themselves?

IMO yes. IME the pd self reported 'empath' uses their status as an 'empath' to identify their specialness or differentness. It isnt about the persons that are helped by the deep empathy shown to them but the plight of the empath and how they suffer giving so much.
IME the attention is on the person giving 'empathy' not the person being shown empathy. The 'emapth' is a hero in all the stories I have heard.

[tragedy or hope]

I'm in on all that is mentioned. Worse is seeing my pattern and words of empathy being used on someone else. he studies me with others. I know he doesn't care but to hear him talk you would think his heart is in whatever he is saying.
he is just a really good listener. he studies what I say what I do and what other people say about someone else. this is how he operates.
yeah... when i was in the hospital with a major event, he was standing in the corner playing with his new cell phone... he had to text his people about what was going on so they would have empathy "for him!"
I felt totally abandoned. when I told him... he had no real response. "I can't get this thing to work." Yeah, in more ways than one.

[PeanutButter]

"The term empath is a self aggrandising term often used by covert narcissist.These kind of narccissists generate their own supply by attaining the high moral ground....the worse the anguish and unhappiness of these eternal victims the more relieved and elated they feel" (Sam Vankin https://youtu.be/889Q6aH5HeU)

[Free2Bme]

My updxh would "copy & paste".  He would observe my response (or another's response) to a given social situation and then copy and paste into his own repertoire.  I watched im do this for over 20 years in various settings.  I'm convinced he never had an original response, other than when he was raging. 

It was like he knew he had nothing to draw upon internally, so he would borrow from others and plug in the response that was useful in the moment.  IMO, all humans are influenced by those around us and pick up sayings, inflections, etc.... but his went WAY beyond that. 

It was like he would access some mental rolodex, flip through, and hit play.  Really weird.

Interestingly, he would come home and complain that someone at the corporate office was taking credit for his ideas and copying him at work 

[Wilderhearts]

HG Tudor talks about how pwNPD will "mirror" empaths - sorry but he has too many articles including "mirror" and "empath" for me to find the exact passage.  That all sounds like extremely tactless mirroring to me.  The incredibly frustrating thing is, for those of us with a modicum of self-awareness, we worry if we will sound like we're plagiarizing the people who are actually plagiarizing us.

I also wonder if my own internalized gas-lighter is getting at me when I think that.  It's usually obvious by the way ideas and emotions are expressed if the person voicing them is just parroting or paraphrasing someone else, but doesn't fully understand how everything works together.  It was engrained in me that no one else could see what I see, see through the lies, but that's not true.  I have to remind myself that other people see through pwPDs behaviours and tactics, even when they don't directly address it. 

[PeanutButter]

Yes I heard my pdMIL do this describing my H her son in an endearing positive way with a very short snippet of his history as proof to our neighbor verbatem the exact words I had told her about my H days earlier when she was critisizing him in a comparative way to someone else. She is chronic nasty negative. I think the only way she could come up with a positive thought/idea was to steal mine. So SICK! If it wasnt so sick I would have been happy to hear her saying something nice about H because she does not ever do that.
Thank goodness I didnt have to experience this regularly like y'all. I would have 

The incredibly frustrating thing is, for those of us with a modicum of self-awareness, we worry if we will sound like we're plagiarizing the people who are actually plagiarizing us.
I also wonder if my own internalized gas-lighter is getting at me when I think that.  It's usually obvious by the way ideas and emotions are expressed if the person voicing them is just parroting or paraphrasing someone else, but doesn't fully understand how everything works together

Hopefully most people dont think about people plagarising other people in this way and just judge words sincere or not bs or not.

[SparkStillLit]

This is maybe not on topic (but it's my thread so who cares, right?). The "mirroring" thing has brought something up.
I often(!!!! So often) hear DS15 parroting H with statements. The other night I told DS "I want to hear YOUR words, what YOU want, what's in YOUR heart. Not what you think we want to hear, nothing about finances, not what Dad says, but just you." Just he and I were talking. He finally got it out, but it took some doing. H is so loud and forceful and yelly and talks over everyone and always verbally slaps down DS even though he's the GC. DS is very....I dunno, soft, and I think he "goes along to get along".
I'M SORRY I EVER MODELED THAT BEHAVIOR.
He even said to me "well it's ok to say what Dad says if I agree", except that... it's just parrotting. There isn't understanding behind it. It doesn't quite "fit", as the poster above said. You're just "agreeing" to make the shouting stop and take the pressure off, and I get that, believe me.
I just want DS to realize what he's doing, and that he has his OWN voice and opinions and ideas. He isn't a mini H.
I see DS "mirroring" H, and it's a poor fit. That boy isn't a pd at all, or if he is, not that kind. He is the furthest thing from hair trigger, ragey, belligerent, angry, intense, any of that.

[Free2Bme]

Spark-

It is NOT off-topic, the effects of the fake persona are far reaching. 

This happened to my DS, e just turned 18, it's been going on for 2-3 years.   He is a programmed GC, mirrors the exact phrases dad uses to accuse me and his siblings (it's DS & dad vs everyone else).  There are occasions when I see my sweet son, who he really is and then he slips back into angry, blaming mode.  He is very much in the FOG.

I can hardly bear it, and at times that I have been in despair.   It seems that my updxh targeted him because we were so close, convinced DS to move away with him and has actively alienated me from him. 

I pray for the day that DS will see the truth.  But I also fear that day because DS will realize that all the love-bombing wasn't real, and that he was just being used.  I dread the pain it will cause DS and how he will cope with what has happened.

Wilderhearts-

HG Tudor talks about how pwNPD will "mirror" empaths - sorry but he has too many articles including "mirror" and "empath" for me to find the exact passage.  That all sounds like extremely tactless mirroring to me.  The incredibly frustrating thing is, for those of us with a modicum of self-awareness, we worry if we will sound like we're plagiarizing the people who are actually plagiarizing us.

I also wonder if my own internalized gas-lighter is getting at me when I think that.  It's usually obvious by the way ideas and emotions are expressed if the person voicing them is just parroting or paraphrasing someone else, but doesn't fully understand how everything works together.  It was engrained in me that no one else could see what I see, see through the lies, but that's not true.  I have to remind myself that other people see through pwPDs behaviours and tactics, even when they don't directly address it.

It's interesting that you say this about your internalized gas-lighter and believing no one else could see what you saw. I can relate to that very much.  Very good observation!

I also think that as convincing as some PD's or sociopaths can be at the facade, upon close inspection there are discrepancies between what they say, their facial affect and display of emotion.  It's like they have difficulty pulling off all of this on a consistent basis.  My updxh mastered this but I would see him  slip form time to time.  This made it difficult to think anyone would see it or believe my claims.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think a lot of people confuse "empathy" with "emotional reaction." My uNM never used the word "empathy" to my recollection, but she definitely played that she was the most caring mother in the world because she would take any negative thing that happened to me very very personally. It was a weird attempt at enmeshment. She would take on my problems as her own, go smashing in to "fix" things, often seriously embarrassing me or otherwise making things very difficult for me, and then expecting me to fawn over her for being such a caring mother, all without even thinking to consider how I felt.

She would say that my pain hurt her more than it hurt me. Talk about invalidating! I think something similar is going on with these "empathic" narcs. They're just trying to steal supply.

[PeanutButter]

Yep i agree with ya call me Cordelia!

The key difference is imo: what is the goal of the "empath" telling others that they are an empath?

Are they trying to use this self reported 'status' as an empath to get attention for themselves, using it as proof they are more 'sensitive' to pain than others, garnering attention as a victim of suffering because of it, or trying to gather together other 'special' persons who are empaths to join them in their self reporting of all of the before mentioned and that empaths are unique, special, and the chosen victims of narcs because they are special?

If so then that is a red flag in my perception.

If so then I would have to wonder if it is actually an idealized self image of themselves they are using to cover having to look at their part in the adult relationship systems they have been apart of.

Even in a relationship with npd/bpd/opd etc. when both are adults, the non (also just a wounded human ) is responsible for his part 50% in the interactions with the pd ime.
https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-1
"The 50% Rule says that we are responsible for 50% of the things that happen in any relationship we share with a person who suffers from a personality disorder.
That is not to say that we are responsible for anyone else's behavior, words or actions. We didn't cause the personality disorders in our loved ones, their behavior or their destructive tendencies. Those are caused by a combination of their own mental illness and their own poor choices.
But in all our relationships, we are responsible for 50% of what happens. We're responsible for our own choices, our own behaviors, our own words and our own actions.
And that is why it is a good idea to stop and think about our own behavior whenever our focus tends to be predominantly on the other person's behavior.
We are responsible for 100% of the choices that wemake, the things we say and the things we do."

[Adria]

I wonder by his acknoweldging his mother doesn't have empathy, maybe he is worried he is lacking in that department also. So, is it possible he may be saying that he has so much empathy that he has to hide it as a cover for the embarassment he feels at his imagined lack of empathy?

[PeanutButter]

 Digging deeper on theories of narccississtic personality disorder than just the criteria listed in the dsm 5 because it is after all coding for insurances purposes and I just found this article which explains that vulnerable narcissists do not lack empathy and they actually use it.
So NPDs can have empathy and use it, can have empathy but not use it, and can not have empathy.
So its possible he has empathy but 'witholds' it.

"Narcissistic personality disorder can be subdivided into positive and negative types, known as "prosocial" or "antisocial" narcissism.  The typical grandiose narcissist, who has become such a familiar American trope, may be overshadowing a less well-known, but equally difficult, personality type: the vulnerable narcissist.
Inherent in the current perception of narcissism is a quality of being in it for oneself and often misusing or exploiting relationships for one's own benefit.  This best characterizes the antisocial narcissist — often, an extremely difficult, self-centered individual who expects excessive gratification from others in his or her life.  By contrast, prosocial narcissists derive credit from positive accomplishments.  They strive to do good deeds — often in public — and to make other people happy with them.  In this way, they derive the validation that they, too, desperately need.  If there are prosocial narcissists in your life, you may know them by how much fun they are to be around (and by the way, they take deep satisfaction in your reaction to them).  They want to be liked — sometimes, too much.  They want to be known and appreciated by everyone in their lives, and their intentions are, overall, quite benign.  Far from showing a lack of empathy, as in the person with traditional narcissistic personality disorder, these people use their empathy to tune in to what pleases you, and in doing so, they find validation."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/i-hear-you/201904/4-types-narcissist-and-how-spot-each-one

[Lauren17]

I agree with Adria's suggestion. My uBPDh, who I strongly suspect is a covert narc, seems to be motivated by worry that he's like his parents.

I've noticed that he has what I consider rote responses to situations that require empathy or sympathy.

Whenever he sees or hears of a car accident, he seriously, sadly says that he hopes everyone is alright. I always thought that showed what a great guy he is. Then one day, I told him about an accident that included fatalities. He gave the same response of hoping everyone is alright. He paused a minute, said oh! And changed the subject.

I think at some point, he found a "mirror" response that worked and stuck with it. When it didn't work, he didn't know how to respond.