Boundary help please

[Sheppane]

hi everyone , looking for some experience with boundaries here.  I posted this elsewhere on the site but it was on the end of an old thread so reposting it here as a new one as I dont know if it got seen or pops up as a new post if added to an old one. Mods please feel free to move if this is the wrong place to put it !!

My FOO was not one where boundaries existed or were modelled.  In my journey Out of the FOG I am realizing how critically important they are for healthy balanced relationships,  but also how the background noise of dysfunction, shame, narcissistic dynamics full of triangulation etc rendered me unable to even consider my right to be entitled to have them. I recently wrote a personal bill of rights which was super helpful.

Identifying them in relation to my core values really helps . Im not yet far enough along to get to the point of how I communicate them when needed, as usually at the point when they are needed I hit a trauma freeze response and words are not available..

But here is where I am stuck..As I wrote a list recently  of external boundaries (" People may not..") I realised what I was actually doing was writing out covert narcissistic traits. It was a list of " People may not ...bait me in conversation/ silent treatment/ nitpick my words/ deliberately try to confuse me in conversation to shift the focus/ shut down and respond with monosyllsbic answers / interrogate me to over explain or justify....etc etc ". This happens in relationship with one of my sibs who uses this covert/PA style. It is a very difficult relationship for me. am still in contact,  though less frequent than we used to.
I always initiate contact, mainly out of FOG, I am working on this and now the silences between contacts are longer ( as sib never initiates). That expectation is on me, and ironically when sib doesn't make contact it's my fault! This is never communicated at the time, but added to a scorecard and it all comes out at a different time, or at least this is the usual pattern. So lots of simmering resentments against me which are never expressed.

Anyway, I am committed to working on my part of the relstionship  50/50 rule, knowing I can't control the rest. What I am unclear about with this covert type communication is - when to disengage?? How far to go in ?

Its like it never gets so hostile to call it , that would be much easier to recognize. Its so subtle. On one day it could be all of the above , on another day it could be less nitpicking but more baiting me with silence..trying to get me to say what often I don't agree with. But no direct questioning me for my opinion, so its hard for me to even know for sure ,  and in the cases that I am asked,  at that stage I am usually so emotionally drained and exhausted by the conversation that I feel confused and don't know how to respond,  and the "safest" response from me is some tyoe of medium chill response.

If I think of these conversations in terms of my need to protect my energy,  my own rights and needs in the relationship , reciprocity, none of that is there. A lot of eggshells,  and as I have never really had a voice,  I wonder now is it better to learn to speak truthfully, and set boundaries. Otherwise through my silence I am not honouring myself or the relationship. But then I also think about my emotional safety, and my need to protect my time and energy.

From all I know of this covert type communication what has helped me sofar is reading about not stepping into the ring. There is no point in speaking my truth to someone who won't hear me, ultimately it will provoke an injury and flush out more pain for me.  So, in one sense,  why do that as it invites further emotional pain for me ? My body takes a large toll with this, I have to mentally prepare for these conversations before,  and take some time for myself after. And if anything I have spent far too long neglecting myself and my needs in this relationship, and I am changing my focus now to try hold onto my energy.

So the options as are -  option A : if any baiting, etc , dont engage, dont follow it, medium chill and politely move conversation towards close or onto some other topic.

OR option B:  call it out in some respectful way, expressing it as my need for X Y or Z , or express my opinion around the issue, speak my truth and afford them that respect.  And if it unleashes further,  THEN set the boundary and leave.

I guess , in short,  what I am wondering is how far in would you go in these types of conversations, before you decide its time to leave.  Do you leave at the first inkling of it, or do you just stay, express yourself,  and if they start to mistreat you in anyway communicate a boundary and leave if it continues. What is respectful of the other person,  what is safe for me,  where does that balance lie. Sometimes I think ..hell no, a life sucking conversation with baiting and emotional dumping should be a bottom line boundary and a sign I should leave the conversation.  Other times I think remain in the conversation, go as far as you can but speak your truth regardless of the outcomes ( their stuff) , then set a boundary if you need to, work on your boundaries and how to communicate them, respectfully. I guess if I think of it from the point of the 50/50 rule and keeping my part in the relationship healthy I am wanting to understand what the "right " thing to do here is, for me, for sib, and for the relationship.  But I need to protect myself too. It's tricky and I'm stuck!

Thanks for reading and appreciate any thoughts or experience!

[PeanutButter]

I experienced this 'hijacking' of my emotions in the presence of some that keeps me stuck repeating the same internal patterns. However the way I think of and see myself and these individuals has now been transformed.
One of the most powerful concepts came from this video Jerry Wise "Calmness is Everything" https://youtu.be/lZX0khAolow
The tools and strategies to achieve greater calmness and lower reactivity, to help detach (emotionally) from unhealthy relationships, is essential for self directed living.
I hope this helps.

[GettingOOTF]

I found that boundaries don’t work for me. My father used to call and say terrible things so my boundary became “if you say something hurtful I will end the call”. All it did was get him to say the hurtful thing as soon as I picked up the phone.

I eventually went No Contact with my siblings and father. Even though I have had no contact with my siblings for two years and my father a year they still find ways to violate my boundaries.

A quick note on boundaries. They  are for you and your peace of mind, they govern your behavior not someone else’s. “You may not ...” is a rule not a boundary. A boundary is “if you do X I will do Y”.  Boundaries are only effective if you are prepared to follow up with an action. I also grew up in a family with zero boundaries. It’s was very hard for me to set them initially. I think for people with our upbringing it’s easier to start small.

I would caution you to expect a lot of push back, especially if you have been given the scapegoat role in the family.

Again, for me personally I found explaining had no impact. It only served to highlight what upset me and that allowed my family to hone their abuse tactics down to what really got to me.

Someone on these boards told me that if my family were capable of hearing what I was saying they would have already heard.

I saw something that said “we need to stop being fair to unfair people”. This really summed up my experience with my family, my trying to be understating and “respectful” of their views.

I think that we all need to find a level of contact for what is safe for us. For me that was full NC, but others find some level of interaction that they can live with. I’m sure others will be by to share their experience.

[Sheppane]

Peanut Butter thank you I will look that up on YouTube its great to hear of new resources.  "Hijacking " is a great way to describe it as I feel I have no control over my internal response when it happens and I become so triggered physically. I really appreciate the response!
Getting Out of the FOG , thank you for reminding me that the boundaries govern my behaviour, that others behaviour may not necessarily change in response. I guess where I find it hard is to identify the line of safety for me, and how far in to go. To pull out quickly, or to stay even if it feels uncomfortable but call them out on it.  I guess its ok to prioritise my safety first, sometimes I overextend and neglect myself in the relationship far too much, putting others needs ahead of my own. What I am really seeking is balance,  and to be able to decipher when I am running away and being avoidant out of fear versus learning to stay in the conversation and calmly state either my opinion or a boundary if needed. And I can't figure whether the not participating in the baiting etc is just me running scared for fear of conflict ( in which case I need to learn how to make myself heard ), or whether it actually is the sensible thing to do, to protect my emotional safety. 
Maybe there is no clear answer but I guess I would like to figure it out, so I know what my bottom line is in these conversations, when to go medium chill or leave,  and when to stay,  speak my truth and participate. 
These issues don't arise in other relationships which are healthy. I guess the amount if confusion about it is also enough to see how unhealthy it is.
Thank you both so much for replying and sharing your experiences,  it is good to know I am not alone.

[Spring Butterfly]

What I am unclear about with this covert type communication is - when to disengage?? How far to go in ?

right away as soon as discomfort sets in and I got so in tune to my gut that I turned my hypervigilence to my advantage. I am very in tune to others mood and emotions (HSP) as a consequence of growing up in an unhealthy environment. Being able to "read the mood" meant a difference to my physical wellbeing. If I could exit before uPDm unleased her anger and hide in a safe space... So I got in tune with my emotions and now if I'm not 100% comfortable I'm done and without warning or discussion I end it using medium chill.

Many of my boundaries around being treated with decency or kindness are not spoken boundaries. No need. If someone doesn't treat me with respect we're done.

You can wrap up that whole list you mention into one boundary. "if someone doesn't treat me decently and with respect I will exit the conversation / room / end text / put their notification on silent / turn off my phone and go do some self care" - see how that focuses on the positive? Your expectations as a human rather than what you won't take from others it's you taking your human rights.

You wrote in your other post

Recently I came across a format which went 1. People may not ....2. I have a right to .....3. To protect my time and energy I will ....

The " I have a right to" part is basically the personal bill of rights, which is an enpowering way of looking at boundaries.

and GettingOOTF is right. Boundaries aren't rules for others, they are your core values, your life expectations and human rights. You must have those other 2 parts because that's the only part you can control, we cannot tell others what they can and can't do to us because we can't control what they do or don't do. That first part may help you identify the behavior you will no longer tolerate but focus on the last two and eventually drop that first part of you use it at all.

[Sheppane]

Thanks so much Spring Butterfly,  yes I relate to " reading" others and I love how you put it to turn your hypervigilance to your advantage!
Thank you for sharing how  "if someone doesn't treat me with respect we're done". Sounds so simple,  and in a way it is that simple..I was getting torn around what the " right " thing is for the other person,  but thinking this through now frankly if they are not respecting me I need to turn my attention to myself, so I guess leaving the conversation then IS ok. Thats where I was getting torn , how long to stay in that type of interaction, and how much to participate in , and when to leave it. I get so easily triggered physically that I never know whether because of my background, whether I can trust my body, or whether it is an over reactive/ disproprtionate hypervigilant response ..which could lead me to misread situations and leave once Im triggered. But maybe I should trust that instinct.  If anything it is probably screaming at me as I have ignored it for years. Once I feel it switching on I can hear myself thinking we are getting into a danger zone,  be prepared to leave, and maybe I need to listen to that more.
Yes that is so true about " rules" versus boundaries.  And I can neatly put all those behaviours under the banner of my need to be treated with respect..thanks for replying !

[WomanInterrupted]

Hi Sheppane,

The boundaries are *always* for us - or in this case, you. 

You can't control how other people think, speak, or act.  You can't *make* them do anything - the only person you can control is YOU. 

My boundaries are very simple -you treat me like crap?  We're done.  I'll politely excuse myself. 

I get a *whiff* of PD actions or language?  I'll revert to Medium Chill until I can end the exchange - hopefully there won't be another, but if there is, I know what to expect and have my *boundaries* at hand to make the encounter as short as possible. 

If you're not sure if somebody is mistreating you, treating you badly, being verbally abusive or unnecessarily critical - left-handed compliments, I call them, such as, "Oh, with all the cooking you do, I thought you'd be fatter..." (lobbed at me by unBPD Didi - my "mom"   ) - trust your gut.   

It doesn't lie.

If it feels yucky, it IS.

That's when it's time to plaster a polite smile to your face, start deflecting nosy questions with non-invasive questions, deploying Medium Chill, and making a solid exit  plan - or just smiling and remembering you have a thing with a thing that you forgot about and you have to leave.   

A pharmacy run always came in handy for me.   

"Oh no - I forgot to get  Q-Tips and if I don't get them now, I'll probably forget again.   See you/talk you later." 

You don't even have to give a reason.  It's NOT required.  You can leave or hang up at any time and decide what your *boundary* is on future engagements. 

Fewer  visits/calls are also boundaries - and so is NC.  They're *all* up to you and there's no right or wrong answer. 

Whatever works for you is best.

And *that's* the most important thing of all. 

[SparkStillLit]

Hello,
I have a PD in the home who does this in person. I'm still working on this, and of course it shifts (I'm sure yours will, too).
My thing is, I try to notice the little tells and catchphrases that we are headed down one of THOSE roads. I get boring as hell "oh. I see. That must be frustrating. Hmmm. My goodness." Etc (the frutrating one is specific ho me. Updh has the lowest frustration tolerance in the universe, and every little thing is "frustrating"). Then I make my escape "gotta pee. Dinner's going. Gotta let the dogs out. Need to move my laundry." Etc
I do NOT wish to get embroiled in ANY level of those conversations. Calling this particular person out does nothing but set off a flaming rage, and circular conversation, and DARVO, and blame shifting, and all the whole mess which I am NOT down for.

[Janeite V]

Thanks so much Spring Butterfly,  yes I relate to " reading" others and I love how you put it to turn your hypervigilance to your advantage!
Thank you for sharing how  "if someone doesn't treat me with respect we're done". Sounds so simple,  and in a way it is that simple..I was getting torn around what the " right " thing is for the other person,  but thinking this through now frankly if they are not respecting me I need to turn my attention to myself, so I guess leaving the conversation then IS ok. Thats where I was getting torn , how long to stay in that type of interaction, and how much to participate in , and when to leave it. I get so easily triggered physically that I never know whether because of my background, whether I can trust my body, or whether it is an over reactive/ disproprtionate hypervigilant response ..which could lead me to misread situations and leave once Im triggered. But maybe I should trust that instinct.  If anything it is probably screaming at me as I have ignored it for years. Once I feel it switching on I can hear myself thinking we are getting into a danger zone,  be prepared to leave, and maybe I need to listen to that more.
Yes that is so true about " rules" versus boundaries.  And I can neatly put all those behaviours under the banner of my need to be treated with respect..thanks for replying !

Great to see that you have decided to trust that very finely honed instinct. That's the dreadful thing about covert narcissism - even when they aren't necessarily trying to bait you, you always have doubts if it's just you being "paranoid" or "too sensitive." And they love it that way!

Maybe it isn't 100% accurate. But how many times have you ignored it, and massively regretted it, compared to the number of times you've ignored it and had any remotely productive or pleasant interaction?

I don't know if it is the same in your situation, but for the longest time I felt like I was obliged to tell my covert narcissist the boundaries I wanted to make and way I wanted to be treated, because it would be somehow unfair to change my behavior without explaining myself. Even then I knew that it would just result in the usual DARVO and using those same things against me, but I couldn't let go of that feeling that I had to give everyone a chance to prove they could respect stated boundaries. Maybe we are conditioned to think that way.

It was liberating to let go of that and just to enforce my boundaries without any permissions or chances.