Cant be bothered to help themselves - should we just leave them to it?

[p123]

Yesterdays call was one of his classics.....

Within seconds I had the ill croaky voice. Whats up? Legs back, in pain. Have you taken all the painkillers the doctor has prescribed for you?
<silence> which, as always means no. Fortunately, we didnt go over the old argument that "he doesnt want to get addicted because his friend said it happens".
My attitude to this - I'm not a doctor. Don't come to me to sort your problems out if you won't listen the medical experts.

"Its been so hot". He hasnt even got a fan in his house. I've offered many times to buy him one. How much? £30-£40. Not paying that for a fan, I'll manage.
My attitude - you have a choice, a fan for £40 or £ thousands minus £40 in the bank and be hot. Not my choice.

"Im not going out of my scooter any more". Why?
Well, if I break down, I can't walk home. Why would you walk home? There are many options. I've paid for "recovery" insurance for you (they basically come anywhere to pick you up. "How would they know I broke down I cant ring them". You take the mobile phone I bought you that never leaves the box, or since you only go to the shops I'm sure someone will help you. "Oh I don;t like to do that -Oh I wont bother I dont want to break down".

This is Dad to a T. You give him an easy option and he cannot be bothered.

My attitude - Stay in then. Not my problem you're stuck in the house when you can make an effort yourself.

Am I being too harsh here?

[p123]

Oh his "solution" today. Hes phoned his cousin (2 years younger then him) whos agreed to go out with him on his scooter (every time!).
I pointed out that ok his cousins not going to be able to push him home or carry him home though. His answer "yes but he can sort it out if it breaks down".
Amazing bad attitude. Get someone else roped in to do something you can do yourself i.e. make one phone call.

This is the same cousin he talked into pushing him around on his wheelchair for an entire day and made his cousin ill. His attitude "well he could have said no". Wow sometimes.

[PeanutButter]

Am I being too harsh here?

IMO Absolutely Not! Heck IMO you are not even being harsh!

You are actually being kind.

You take his call even though you get nothing positive from it. You listen to his problems even though they are not real problems but a dumping of pessimism meant to produce FOG in you. You give him helpful (common sense because he pretends to lack any) solutions even though he always poopoos them.

You are the opposite of too harsh. You are actually above and beyond kind and patient.

IME These 'family systems' feelings can come up when talking to, visiting with, or even thinking of FOO.

The feelings are based on what was programmed onto us in childhood. The purpose of the programming was to control us in everyway it suited our caregiver to use us to fulfill their needs.

IME Acknowledging that these feelings are of that origin is a way of decreasing the impact they have on our beliefs.

IMO you are a good and loving son, father, and husband. You are doing a good job responding to F in a healthy manner!

[p123]

Am I being too harsh here?

IMO Absolutely Not! Heck IMO you are not even being harsh!

You are actually being kind.

You take his call even though you get nothing positive from it. You listen to his problems even though they are not real problems but a dumping of pessimism meant to produce FOG in you. You give him helpful (common sense because he pretends to lack any) solutions even though he always poopoos them.

You are the opposite of too harsh. You are actually above and beyond kind and patient.

IME These 'family systems' feelings can come up when talking to, visiting with, or even thinking of FOO.

The feelings are based on what was programmed onto us in childhood. The purpose of the programming was to control us in everyway it suited our caregiver to use us to fulfill their needs.

IME Acknowledging that these feelings are of that origin is a way of decreasing the impact they have on our beliefs.

IMO you are a good and loving son, father, and husband. You are doing a good job responding to F in a healthy manner!

Thanks Peanut. He makes me so mad when he just does not help himself and then moans about things. Its almost sometimes as if he likes things screwed up I'm sure.

Hes at the stage now, where he just cannot be bothered with anything. I can offer to take him out - no. But then he still moans hes stuck in. I keep telling him, there are a multitude of ways we can make things easier for him but he just says no.

Don't get me started on the home delivery shopping. Refuses. Would rather I drove 30 mins to get £20 worht of groceries than get them delivered. "Doesnt want someone at my door". Better tell the postman to keep away then!

Part of his problem is "I don;t like to". He'll ask friends and family to do whatever but always assumes to can't do something or it'll be too difficult. I've taken him places and hes refused because "they wont let wheelchairs in" what? Or "its too much hassle to ask?". It amazes me honestly.

[Call Me Cordelia]

You're doing good, p123. I don't know if you read freedom77's thread about her M possibly facing homelessness. We all said freedom had gone above and beyond what was required to help her M and if she ended up homeless by her own lack of action then so be it.

You have likewise gone above and beyond. But people make stupid choices sometimes. You obviously care but it's your dad's choice and his prerogative to make it. It doesn't help anyone to get all upset by it. Personally I think he's partly looking pathetic on purpose as a waify hoover. You keep doing what you're doing and let him get on with it his own way. It hurts to see people we care about act in such unhealthy ways but you have learned by now you can't change him! And your being upset and ruminating on it doesn't help anybody either.

[PeanutButter]

Oh his "solution" today. Hes phoned his cousin (2 years younger then him) whos agreed to go out with him on his scooter (every time!).
I pointed out that ok his cousins not going to be able to push him home or carry him home though. His answer "yes but he can sort it out if it breaks down".
Amazing bad attitude. Get someone else roped in to do something you can do yourself i.e. make one phone call.

This is the same cousin he talked into pushing him around on his wheelchair for an entire day and made his cousin ill. His attitude "well he could have said no". Wow sometimes.

I agree p123. WOW!
He could care less about cousin getting ill last time. If F can call cousin to ask for help, then he could make a call to the "recovery" (you kindly set up for him) if he ran into some sort of problem when he is on his scooter. Cousin must be deep in the fog.

He makes me so mad when he just does not help himself and then moans about things. Its almost sometimes as if he likes things screwed up I'm sure. It amazes me honestly.

I think is a good possibility.
If his goal is attention, but noone enjoys being around him, then it is necessary for his helplessness, debilitating health problems, declining cognition and abilities be the draw to those left in his life (mainly ones conditioned to believe family ties outweigh everything else) that causes them to enable (help) him.

[Sidney37]

Hi P123
I hope you enjoyed every minute of your holiday.   I had forgotten that you were going and wondered how things with your dad had been so quiet. 

You aren't being too harsh at all.   I think of it the same way I do with my tween/teen kids.   Look, I gave you 2 choices.   If you choose to take neither, that's on you.   He's making his choice.  He's an adult and has to live with the consequences. 

You've come a long way! 

[Adrianna]

P123 I agree with Sidney. You have come a long way! I remember when you started and were so hesitant to set boundaries.

As you know this all sounds familiar to me. They make everything difficult because they love you running in circles trying to solve their problems, which can't be solved because they won't accept our advice or guidance. I think they get a thrill out of watching us do tricks trying to fix their life. On a psych level, to them it probably shows we care, and they are trying to get that internal void filled which no human can fill, but to us it's 100 percent manipulation. And you are right to opt out of it.

Trying to please someone who can't be pleased only leads to

Frustration
Disappointment
Confusion
Hurt
Bitterness
Resentment
Anger

None of which are good. Stay on your path. You're doing great!

[Andeza]

Oh he absolutely wants things screwed up, or at least to look like it is. People with personality disorders frequently manufacture chaos to get what they want. If he looks totally inept, incapable, etc, then you'll have to go help him out every single day. Which is his goal, by the way.

Anger is good, embrace it, use it to see that he's just trying to manipulate you. The world revolves around him and what he wants after all.

Glad you enjoyed your vacation! Sorry Disney world didn't happen, at least not yet, it's a bit, well, not the happiest place on earth at the moment with all the closures and requirements.

[WomanInterrupted]

Well done, sir - and you were anything but harsh!   

You held your ground and didn't get sucked into his problems.   You offered simple solutions and got them all thrown back at you because not only would HE have to do something, but he really doesn't want his problems solved.

He really doesn't.   

For example, if you bought a fan and brought it over, it would just sit there in the box until kingdom come.    He wouldn't do a thing with it.

If you took it out of the box and plugged it in, he'd probably tell you to turn it off because it'll cost too much in electricity.   

You just can't win.  They won't *let* us win.

They'd rather sow chaos and confusion, keeping all in flux around them, where everything is a big, flipping mystery or secret, and only WE can solve the problem FOR them - until the next one comes along, and there's *always* a next one.

The second they have to put in an iota of effort, it's just not going to happen.  They won't do it.

Sure, he'll run the cousin ragged, until the cousin says no or becomes ill, and when that happens - not your problem.  It's your *dad's* problem.  He can figure out something that doesn't involve you in any way, shape or form. 

I went through the same damned thing with unBPD Didi and I swear, it's like trying to pry a revolving door of tentacles off your person.  As soon as you get rid of a few, they're ready to deploy a few more. 

Be ready to say NO - you can't help, call your doctor, have the scooter serviced, well, I really don't know what to tell you since you shoot down everything I suggest, so I'm ending the call.  There's really nothing more to talk about, dad.  We just keep going round in circles.  You have to help yourself.   

You've GOT this!   

[p123]

Thanks alll.....

WI - you're spot on there. Anything that needs one IOTA of effort from him is a no. Its unbelievable.
A lot of these things I CANNOT fix anyway so why ask me about it?

I'm getting better. I offer fixes and he says no and I think stuff you then.

The scooter thing is crazy. Won't go out on it in case it breaks down because he cant walk home. Its like saying I'm never going out in my car!
As with all things, Dads crazy idea never stand up to sensible scrutiny.

He is getting more and more anxious though. It seems to control everything at the moment. Also he tries to control my life with it too. (Remember the recent phone calls when I was in spain - he was frantic that I had to come home NOW)

Thing is with Dad as well its true he wants everyone to run around for him. Hes got Satellite TV - he knows how to work this PERFECTLY. Because he has to. No learn no watch. With his mobile phone, it stays in the box, because hes yet to see why he needs to learn. Theres always someone else to do it for you. I realised hes done this all his life. He never learned to drive - why when someone else can give him a lift to work. why think about it. Exactly like he is now.
I realised some years ago that Dad really is one of lifes "losers" because of his attitude. He wont do anything, he will let others do things for him, and he will never think to better himself.

Of course, now he wants what he wants. Me to visit every few days and take him for a ride in the car. Not think about anything else. Me to just do it.

[lkdrymom]

It is not just your father. I think they are all like that.

I swear my father didn't want me to actually solve his problems....he just wanted me working on them all the time.  I'd take care of something for him and he'd ask...are you sure it is taken care of...call them again and make sure.  What???

What they really want is for you to run to their side and pat  them on the hand and say "you poor thing"   over and over and over and over.

My father would f-up the remote weekly.  I showed him what to do.  Wrote it down in easy to read instruction....nope...it was easier if I did it. Not for me it wasn't.

He thought nothing of me leaving work TWICE in one day to take him to the same doctor. He could not fathom how that was a problem.  By the third time I caught on and refused.  He did not know what to do.  I suggested he call a friend.  He expected me to find someone for him. I refused, told him to call his friend. He didn't want to BOTHER him....a retired friend who lives in the area. No rather call his daughter and expect her to leave WORK.

The best was when he ended up in a hospital 2 hours away.  He called me to come and pick him up....NOW.  I was at work. Stupid me actually did it.  Later I found out his friends offered to come and get him but he said he daughter would do it.  I could have killed him. No concern that I lost a half days pay and had to drive 100 miles.

My kids loved my father but my daughter did get to see the guy I had to deal with.   She was helping my father pack up his apartment and my aunt stopped by.  My father dropped her to go off with my aunt and leave it all on her.  That is my father...as soon as a better offer comes along he would dump me.  I'm glad she got to see him as I do.

[p123]

It is not just your father. I think they are all like that.

I swear my father didn't want me to actually solve his problems....he just wanted me working on them all the time.  I'd take care of something for him and he'd ask...are you sure it is taken care of...call them again and make sure.  What???

What they really want is for you to run to their side and pat  them on the hand and say "you poor thing"   over and over and over and over.

My father would f-up the remote weekly.  I showed him what to do.  Wrote it down in easy to read instruction....nope...it was easier if I did it. Not for me it wasn't.

He thought nothing of me leaving work TWICE in one day to take him to the same doctor. He could not fathom how that was a problem.  By the third time I caught on and refused.  He did not know what to do.  I suggested he call a friend.  He expected me to find someone for him. I refused, told him to call his friend. He didn't want to BOTHER him....a retired friend who lives in the area. No rather call his daughter and expect her to leave WORK.

The best was when he ended up in a hospital 2 hours away.  He called me to come and pick him up....NOW.  I was at work. Stupid me actually did it.  Later I found out his friends offered to come and get him but he said he daughter would do it.  I could have killed him. No concern that I lost a half days pay and had to drive 100 miles.

My kids loved my father but my daughter did get to see the guy I had to deal with.   She was helping my father pack up his apartment and my aunt stopped by.  My father dropped her to go off with my aunt and leave it all on her.  That is my father...as soon as a better offer comes along he would dump me.  I'm glad she got to see him as I do.

Yep spot on the same.....
Hes not happy unless someone is doing it for him. In his head, he needs help, in reality hes just lazy.....

Yeh I got the hospital thing too. I was in work too. 60 min train ride, then probably 60 min drive. He got the nurse to call me because he'd told her I wouldnt mind. I told her no.
I did ask him why he got the nurse to call me  - can't he do it? "Its their job". Umm my wife is a nurse, and they are medical professionals who have an important job, they are NOT you're personal PA. Dad seems to disagree.

Anyway, I didnt go. Told him to get a taxi. It would have cost £10. I offered to pay. Nope. He sat for 4 hours in the waiting room for the FREE patient transport, made himself ill by doing so, then that was my fault.
Im self employed, I told him it would have taken me two hours to get there, lost half a days pay which would have paid for taxis for half the waiting room to get home.

[lkdrymom]

It is not just your father. I think they are all like that.

I swear my father didn't want me to actually solve his problems....he just wanted me working on them all the time.  I'd take care of something for him and he'd ask...are you sure it is taken care of...call them again and make sure.  What???

What they really want is for you to run to their side and pat  them on the hand and say "you poor thing"   over and over and over and over.

My father would f-up the remote weekly.  I showed him what to do.  Wrote it down in easy to read instruction....nope...it was easier if I did it. Not for me it wasn't.

He thought nothing of me leaving work TWICE in one day to take him to the same doctor. He could not fathom how that was a problem.  By the third time I caught on and refused.  He did not know what to do.  I suggested he call a friend.  He expected me to find someone for him. I refused, told him to call his friend. He didn't want to BOTHER him....a retired friend who lives in the area. No rather call his daughter and expect her to leave WORK.

The best was when he ended up in a hospital 2 hours away.  He called me to come and pick him up....NOW.  I was at work. Stupid me actually did it.  Later I found out his friends offered to come and get him but he said he daughter would do it.  I could have killed him. No concern that I lost a half days pay and had to drive 100 miles.

My kids loved my father but my daughter did get to see the guy I had to deal with.   She was helping my father pack up his apartment and my aunt stopped by.  My father dropped her to go off with my aunt and leave it all on her.  That is my father...as soon as a better offer comes along he would dump me.  I'm glad she got to see him as I do.

Yep spot on the same.....
Hes not happy unless someone is doing it for him. In his head, he needs help, in reality hes just lazy.....

Yeh I got the hospital thing too. I was in work too. 60 min train ride, then probably 60 min drive. He got the nurse to call me because he'd told her I wouldnt mind. I told her no.
I did ask him why he got the nurse to call me  - can't he do it? "Its their job". Umm my wife is a nurse, and they are medical professionals who have an important job, they are NOT you're personal PA. Dad seems to disagree.

Anyway, I didnt go. Told him to get a taxi. It would have cost £10. I offered to pay. Nope. He sat for 4 hours in the waiting room for the FREE patient transport, made himself ill by doing so, then that was my fault.
Im self employed, I told him it would have taken me two hours to get there, lost half a days pay which would have paid for taxis for half the waiting room to get home.

The worst part is...it is not so much that you are doing something for them...it is that you are being greatly inconvenienced in order to do something for them...THAT  is what they want to see.

[p123]

It is not just your father. I think they are all like that.

I swear my father didn't want me to actually solve his problems....he just wanted me working on them all the time.  I'd take care of something for him and he'd ask...are you sure it is taken care of...call them again and make sure.  What???

What they really want is for you to run to their side and pat  them on the hand and say "you poor thing"   over and over and over and over.

My father would f-up the remote weekly.  I showed him what to do.  Wrote it down in easy to read instruction....nope...it was easier if I did it. Not for me it wasn't.

He thought nothing of me leaving work TWICE in one day to take him to the same doctor. He could not fathom how that was a problem.  By the third time I caught on and refused.  He did not know what to do.  I suggested he call a friend.  He expected me to find someone for him. I refused, told him to call his friend. He didn't want to BOTHER him....a retired friend who lives in the area. No rather call his daughter and expect her to leave WORK.

The best was when he ended up in a hospital 2 hours away.  He called me to come and pick him up....NOW.  I was at work. Stupid me actually did it.  Later I found out his friends offered to come and get him but he said he daughter would do it.  I could have killed him. No concern that I lost a half days pay and had to drive 100 miles.

My kids loved my father but my daughter did get to see the guy I had to deal with.   She was helping my father pack up his apartment and my aunt stopped by.  My father dropped her to go off with my aunt and leave it all on her.  That is my father...as soon as a better offer comes along he would dump me.  I'm glad she got to see him as I do.

Yep spot on the same.....
Hes not happy unless someone is doing it for him. In his head, he needs help, in reality hes just lazy.....

Yeh I got the hospital thing too. I was in work too. 60 min train ride, then probably 60 min drive. He got the nurse to call me because he'd told her I wouldnt mind. I told her no.
I did ask him why he got the nurse to call me  - can't he do it? "Its their job". Umm my wife is a nurse, and they are medical professionals who have an important job, they are NOT you're personal PA. Dad seems to disagree.

Anyway, I didnt go. Told him to get a taxi. It would have cost £10. I offered to pay. Nope. He sat for 4 hours in the waiting room for the FREE patient transport, made himself ill by doing so, then that was my fault.
Im self employed, I told him it would have taken me two hours to get there, lost half a days pay which would have paid for taxis for half the waiting room to get home.

The worst part is...it is not so much that you are doing something for them...it is that you are being greatly inconvenienced in order to do something for them...THAT  is what they want to see.

Oh yeh realised that a while ago - its the act that I've proved my worth or, more to the point, hes got me to do something and is still in control is the thing.

I find it SO insulting to be honest.

[nanotech]

It is not just your father. I think they are all like that.

I swear my father didn't want me to actually solve his problems....he just wanted me working on them all the time.  I'd take care of something for him and he'd ask...are you sure it is taken care of...call them again and make sure.  What???

What they really want is for you to run to their side and pat  them on the hand and say "you poor thing"   over and over and over and over.

My father would f-up the remote weekly.  I showed him what to do.  Wrote it down in easy to read instruction....nope...it was easier if I did it. Not for me it wasn't.

He thought nothing of me leaving work TWICE in one day to take him to the same doctor. He could not fathom how that was a problem.  By the third time I caught on and refused.  He did not know what to do.  I suggested he call a friend.  He expected me to find someone for him. I refused, told him to call his friend. He didn't want to BOTHER him....a retired friend who lives in the area. No rather call his daughter and expect her to leave WORK.

The best was when he ended up in a hospital 2 hours away.  He called me to come and pick him up....NOW.  I was at work. Stupid me actually did it.  Later I found out his friends offered to come and get him but he said he daughter would do it.  I could have killed him. No concern that I lost a half days pay and had to drive 100 miles.

My kids loved my father but my daughter did get to see the guy I had to deal with.   She was helping my father pack up his apartment and my aunt stopped by.  My father dropped her to go off with my aunt and leave it all on her.  That is my father...as soon as a better offer comes along he would dump me.  I'm glad she got to see him as I do.

Yep spot on the same.....
Hes not happy unless someone is doing it for him. In his head, he needs help, in reality hes just lazy.....

Yeh I got the hospital thing too. I was in work too. 60 min train ride, then probably 60 min drive. He got the nurse to call me because he'd told her I wouldnt mind. I told her no.
I did ask him why he got the nurse to call me  - can't he do it? "Its their job". Umm my wife is a nurse, and they are medical professionals who have an important job, they are NOT you're personal PA. Dad seems to disagree.

Anyway, I didnt go. Told him to get a taxi. It would have cost £10. I offered to pay. Nope. He sat for 4 hours in the waiting room for the FREE patient transport, made himself ill by doing so, then that was my fault.
Im self employed, I told him it would have taken me two hours to get there, lost half a days pay which would have paid for taxis for half the waiting room to get home.

The worst part is...it is not so much that you are doing something for them...it is that you are being greatly inconvenienced in order to do something for them...THAT  is what they want to see.

This is true. They don't want a problem solved. They want us to drop everything, ignore everyone else and....
Just
Serve   
Them.

I'm surprised your dad didn't suggest you coming to personally fan him like one of cleopatra's slaves.
There are no limits to their wants.
They don't act like adults.
Their expectations are ridiculous.
Their selfishness is shocking and it can be depressing.

Good point too about their disinclination to learn anything which they see no need for. Yup my dad to a tee.

[Adrianna]

I agree the more inconvenienced we are, the more they seem to enjoy it.

What an awful way to live when you get joy by watching others get the joy sucked out of them. I was very bitter towards her as time went on, and for good reason.

No one deserves to be manipulated.

[lkdrymom]

I agree the more inconvenienced we are, the more they seem to enjoy it.

What an awful way to live when you get joy by watching others get the joy sucked out of them. I was very bitter towards her as time went on, and for good reason.

No one deserves to be manipulated.

They joy out of knowing you will go to great lengths to make them happy. Or at least try and make them happy. What they want is to feel important.  They are so important that you will drop everything else to tend to them.  With my grandmother I used to call it 'bragging rights'.  Who's kid went out of their way the most to do something for them.

[p123]

I think thats what I find most difficult to deal with.

The fact that he likes getting me to do things for the sake of it just to "test" me or get some sort of warm glow.

[Adrianna]

I think thats what I find most difficult to deal with.

The fact that he likes getting me to do things for the sake of it just to "test" me or get some sort of warm glow.

It's a difficult thing to accept and it's an unsettling, disturbing and overall lousy feeling, once you realize you are being manipulated by someone who society says is supposed to love us.