Dominating Covert Narcissist

[Janeite V]

Hello everyone 

I am so glad there exists a non-judgemental board like this, where people who are trying to heal from or cope with difficult relationships with those who suffer from PDs can speak freely. Even in the mental health profession, I have found that there is so little understanding given both to those who suffer from PDs, and even more so, those who suffer from the externalising effects of them! Particularly, the covert types, whose behaviour is difficult to fathom, much less to describe.

Dr. Ramani has changed my life and made me realise that the problematic person in my life is a covert narcissist, and another one is their flying monkey with possible traits (definitely not full on NPD, but Dr. Ramani points out that often flying monkeys have narc traits themselves).

The main thing she has taught me is that true narcissists will not change. Not only do they see no reason to; they don't even know how false their ego construction of themselves and others truly is. It's really, really sad, but also liberating to realise this. I was doing so much harm to myself while also enabling the narcissist with my belief that if I could just find the right words, and use enough empathy, that they would finally see what was happening and heal.

Another thing I realised is that not everyone is going to be ready to accept this painful and difficult truth. There is a lot of talk around "forgiveness," "unconditional love," "everyone deserves a second (millionth) chance," etc. This is the most painful reality to me when I see others being abused and just accepting that they deserve to be treated that way, or even people callously saying those things directly to someone who experiences abuse.

I have been diagnosed with a personality disorder myself (STPD with traits of SPD) which presents in my own case much like mild schizophrenia. I could say a lot about how I developed this because of the adaptations I had to make and the beliefs I adopted as a result of those with PDs in my FOO, but I understand this is not the function of this board.

I will say, however, that I think a lot of us who grew up in narc FOOs have their own little narcissist inside them that continues to torment them and gaslight them, even when they have left that environment. Whatever form that little narcissist (or other PD) that hurt you takes for you, I hope all those who read this will be free of it some day and will replace it with a kinder little voice of your own choosing. Not of theirs!

[bloomie]

Hi and welcome to Out of the FOG. I hope you find the resources and discussions on the forum boards to be enriching and good support for you.

It is liberating indeed when we accept that people with PD's may never change and all of our adapting and careful communications attempting to reach them are exhausting us and doing harm. That the only one we can control and change is ourselves.

[Janeite V]

Hi and welcome to Out of the FOG. I hope you find the resources and discussions on the forum boards to be enriching and good support for you.

It is liberating indeed when we accept that people with PD's may never change and all of our adapting and careful communications attempting to reach them are exhausting us and doing harm. That the only one we can control and change is ourselves.

Very well said! Because almost everyone, including myself in my FOO has some sort of PD, it will be a long road towards truly letting go of the sense of FOG, but this board has already been tremendously helpful and enlightening.

Thank you for sharing this resource and for the welcome! I hope that this knowledge and wisdom will become far more widespread.

[Spring Butterfly]

I am so glad there exists a non-judgemental board like this, where people who are trying to heal from or cope with difficult relationships with those who suffer from PDs can speak freely.

Welcome and it's good you found us and appreciate the healing tools and support community here!

I have been diagnosed with a personality disorder myself (STPD with traits of SPD) which presents in my own case much like mild schizophrenia. I could say a lot about how I developed this because of the adaptations I had to make and the beliefs I adopted as a result of those with PDs in my FOO, but I understand this is not the function of this board.

It's good you've found some support "in real life" for this and yes according to guidelines someone with PD cannot speak about their own PD just the healing journey dealing with the PD persons in their life. See the Resources tab for other places that may suit your STPD if you need more support than what you've already found.

Because almost everyone, including myself in my FOO has some sort of PD

Thanks for sharing your opinion and just a word of caution it's not something the guidelines allow on the discussion boards. We can't diagnose others and often what others are experience isn't PD at all but learned behaviors or "Fleas" or else cPTSD which isn't PD but a result of trauma that is sometimes misdiagnosed. See these two links for further information.
https://outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/complex-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-c-ptsd
https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas

The Toolbox is super helpful in fact and is a great place to start your healing journey. See you on the boards!

[Janeite V]

I am so glad there exists a non-judgemental board like this, where people who are trying to heal from or cope with difficult relationships with those who suffer from PDs can speak freely.

Welcome and it's good you found us and appreciate the healing tools and support community here!

I have been diagnosed with a personality disorder myself (STPD with traits of SPD) which presents in my own case much like mild schizophrenia. I could say a lot about how I developed this because of the adaptations I had to make and the beliefs I adopted as a result of those with PDs in my FOO, but I understand this is not the function of this board.

It's good you've found some support "in real life" for this and yes according to guidelines someone with PD cannot speak about their own PD just the healing journey dealing with the PD persons in their life. See the Resources tab for other places that may suit your STPD if you need more support than what you've already found.

Because almost everyone, including myself in my FOO has some sort of PD

Thanks for sharing your opinion and just a word of caution it's not something the guidelines allow on the discussion boards. We can't diagnose others and often what others are experience isn't PD at all but learned behaviors or "Fleas" or else cPTSD which isn't PD but a result of trauma that is sometimes misdiagnosed. See these two links for further information.
https://outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/complex-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-c-ptsd
https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas

The Toolbox is super helpful in fact and is a great place to start your healing journey. See you on the boards!

Thank you for the clarification.

What kind of terminology is best to use for those who display (say) a lot of narcissistic traits but might not be officially diagnosed? Is it best to assume PTSD or fleas when describing such relationships, or is it better to use "uNPD?"

[Janeite V]

Sorry everyone for causing offence!

I didn't mean to accuse any member here of having a personality disorder. I was speaking about my family of origin (FOO). It's true that violent and abusive behavior doesn't always mean someone has a PD and can be fleas and CPTSD or any number of illnesses.

[xredshoesx]

we appreciate the clarification.  are you still in contact with anyone in your FOO?  i know it's been like being reborn for me since NC happened but that was also a very deliberate choice i had to make because in my situation being in contact with my FOO was saying their narrative of the abuse (multi generational, all types) never happened and i was just too exhausted trying to keep up the front to protect all the lies they had built upon to hide what really happened.

[Janeite V]

we appreciate the clarification.  are you still in contact with anyone in your FOO?  i know it's been like being reborn for me since NC happened but that was also a very deliberate choice i had to make because in my situation being in contact with my FOO was saying their narrative of the abuse (multi generational, all types) never happened and i was just too exhausted trying to keep up the front to protect all the lies they had built upon to hide what really happened.

Thank you for your understanding. I hope I didn't upset anyone or make them think they had a PD. For people with CPTSD that is an awful thing.

I am so glad to hear that you managed to liberate yourself from the multi-generational abuse and go no contact! It seems extra callous on top  of everything else you went through to have to keep up pretenses and maintain other people's lies about what really went on. I hope you are healing as much as possible. It is amazing when someone can be reborn and thrive after being so entangled in it all with no choice from childhood!

Unfortunately I still live with the family member I think might be a covert narcissist and their flying monkey (though not diagnosed). Grey rock seems to have worked really well but sadly the narcissist abuses another non-PD family member instead of me as a result.

As for the others, I make a distinction between deliberate and unintentional harm and set my level of contact that way. I keep in limited contact with a family member who seems to have severe paranoid psychosis (I really don't know what it is but it's something really serious). I care about them deeply but I have to make sure my own symptoms aren't triggered. Sometimes you think you are fine emotionally but then you have a sort of delayed reaction to the stress of trying to help - and that makes me a burden on my healthy family member who is very supportive of me.

[Spring Butterfly]

Sounds like you're in a super good healthy place in your healing journey. Lots of work but so worth it!

As far as this goes

What kind of terminology is best to use for those who display (say) a lot of narcissistic traits but might not be officially diagnosed? Is it best to assume PTSD or fleas when describing such relationships, or is it better to use "uNPD?"

If you have to designate anything then probably fleas is the safest bet because even CPTSD would be a diagnosis of sorts. Those of us growing up in a toxic environment walk away with damage. Sometimes it's best not to give the damage a name and to let others find their own journey and path. That falls more under the not giving specific advice guidelines. Sometimes to help a member along we may tentatively suggest different parts of the toolbox might be helpful but the advice guidelines prevent specifically suggesting a particular diagnosis.

The community here is one that encourages treading gently, walking beside one another and holding space. 

[Janeite V]

Sounds like you're in a super good healthy place in your healing journey. Lots of work but so worth it!

As far as this goes

What kind of terminology is best to use for those who display (say) a lot of narcissistic traits but might not be officially diagnosed? Is it best to assume PTSD or fleas when describing such relationships, or is it better to use "uNPD?"

If you have to designate anything then probably fleas is the safest bet because even CPTSD would be a diagnosis of sorts. Those of us growing up in a toxic environment walk away with damage. Sometimes it's best not to give the damage a name and to let others find their own journey and path. That falls more under the not giving specific advice guidelines. Sometimes to help a member along we may tentatively suggest different parts of the toolbox might be helpful but the advice guidelines prevent specifically suggesting a particular diagnosis.

The community here is one that encourages treading gently, walking beside one another and holding space.

Thank you! This is actually very hopeful because it might mean that people in my family might be able to recover eventually. I still do really care about the person who I thought was a covert narcissist (but probably has fleas as you say) and would love it if maybe they can get away from the FOO and begin to heal. But still for my own safety and sanity I will continue grey rock until I see signs they are healing. Ideally, in therapy and taking it really seriously. I do wish I could encourage them to go to therapy but I know that is not my place.

[Spring Butterfly]

Yes exactly why we acknowledge and often say uPD or uNPD to acknowledge it's an amatuer diagnosis.

Treatment is possible but only if the person acknowledges there's a problem and on their own initiates their own wellness journey.

In my case I'm aware of the damage that causes uPDm and enF behavior as well as it's impact on sibs but none of them are aware. It's sad. Like watching their life in slow motion train wreck mode as they destroy relationships and manifest the very behaviors that drive people away and fulfill their deepest fears.

Meanwhile *I'm* the one with the problem because I choose to self protect. However that doesn't stop me. It makes me.sad I have to back away but I must for my own survival. The impact to my physical, mental and emotional well-being was too great. I don't need to set myself in fire to keep someone else warm is a phrase we use often around here.

You seem like someone who likes a deep dive into research and if I have that wrong I apologise. I thought the Enneagram was facinating because each personality type at its lowest functioning level aligns to a particular PD type. I posted here
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=83329.0

[Janeite V]

Yes exactly why we acknowledge and often say uPD or uNPD to acknowledge it's an amatuer diagnosis.

Treatment is possible but only if the person acknowledges there's a problem and on their own initiates their own wellness journey.

Thank you very much for the links! In my own experience with myself and my family, often it takes some sort of crisis (perhaps repeated calls to the police in the case of problems with paranoia) or seeking therapy for another issue (perhaps depression or anxiety) for someone to get help when they are not aware there is a problem. And it is very true that therapists and psychiatrists quite rightly are reluctant to share a PD diagnosis with the patient for fear it could interfere with treatment or worse, result in some sort of abuse directed at them.

In my case I'm aware of the damage that causes uPDm and enF behavior as well as it's impact on sibs but none of them are aware. It's sad. Like watching their life in slow motion train wreck mode as they destroy relationships and manifest the very behaviors that drive people away and fulfill their deepest fears.

Meanwhile *I'm* the one with the problem because I choose to self protect. However that doesn't stop me. It makes me.sad I have to back away but I must for my own survival. The impact to my physical, mental and emotional well-being was too great. I don't need to set myself in fire to keep someone else warm is a phrase we use often around here.

It's very painful to see. I am sorry you have to experience that with your family, especially when you can almost set your watch to the self-destruction and fulfillment of their fears. Nevertheless I am very glad you are committed to keeping yourself safe and protected. Maybe your example is helping even if you can't see it and it isn't acknowledged. At least you are showing that there is another way to live.

It seems that no matter how difficult our lives are, we often prefer the comfort of things remaining the same over true happiness and fulfillment. It takes a lot of bravery and insight to step out of that and change our situation.

You seem like someone who likes a deep dive into research and if I have that wrong I apologise. I thought the Enneagram was facinating because each personality type at its lowest functioning level aligns to a particular PD type. I posted here
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=83329.0

Wow, that is really an amazing website! Type 5 is particularly relevant to my family. The family member I have limited contact with is consistently at level 8-9 of type five - experiencing hallucinations and delusions almost all the time and not able to be shaken from them (although I've had some success in distracting them temporarily). For example, I might go through their computer very carefully with them and prove that there is no remote access. But they will still believe that there is something hidden there no matter how much you go through it.

It's also helpful to see what someone might be able to aspire to with great effort and treatment. I've been able to sustain type 5 level 2 for a few days in a row but quickly revert to level 8 or 9 if I overdo it. It seems like level 5 might be a good level to aspire to for my family member and myself.

I also find Type 2 very interesting. My family member who is generally very healthy got a psychosomatic autoimmune illness overnight after one crisis with two other family members involved. It was very stressful for that family member and it has taken years to recover from that illness.

Lighting yourself on fire to keep others warm applies a lot to this helper.

[Spring Butterfly]

So glad you found the information helpful. It really helped me to see their potential and I've seen people in my life up and down from healthy to unhealthy in their behavior. It helped me see them as just damaged humans and it helped me to move on with my life. If they want to figure it out and focus on their own self-growth that's up to them. Especially helpful for me with siblings that are just stuck. It doesn't matter to me if they're PD or not, it's the behaviors themselves we need to focus on and that's why at the top of the forum we have the top 100 behaviors so that we can just address those as needed.