When is a FM a FM?

[Sidney37]

I remember a year ago when I was going NC and talking about FMs that most people advised me to block everyone.   One person here (and my not so great therapist) suggested not to assume everyone is a FM.   I don't remember who that poster was, but I found their advice and the way they explained it very helpful.   Does anyone know who here thinks you should not assume all relatives are FMs?  I'd like to find that advice in the old post and read it.

Anyway, a year later, the FMs have been mostly quiet.   I blocked my parents and unfriended their close friends who I haven't seen in almost 20 years, one of which is a definite FM.

Now I have the relatives who I know are in contact with parents.   The PDs, I unfriended.  The cousins who are in contact with my parents but not acting like FMs so far. I have on a list so they don't see my posts.  The young cousins in their 20s, I've done nothing. 

So as I've mentioned enD sent multiple communications in the past month to inform me that I am no longer the power of attorney, medical power of attorney, etc.  Great!  I don't want to deal with it.   I didn't respond.

Days after my lack of response,  out come the similar aged and younger cousins who haven't communicated with me in a year.   One texted just to check in.  He's VLC with the family because his mom and dad are PD and very dysfunctional.   We texted about sports, kids, the virus, weather, etc.  No mention of family but the timing was suspicious.   Another cousin noticed that she and I  are no longer FB friends.  She and her parents have refused to speak to me for a year (her) and two years (them) because DH and I set some boundaries on a vacation.  We wouldn't wait hours with young children yet again for PD aunt to get ready and went to dinner at the scheduled time .     No one had done that in almost 50 years.  She and uncle were furious with us.  And I wouldn't give them details about the situation with my parents.  I said it was between me and my parents.   Since then I've gotten silent treatment.

I never know when and who to ignore, block, unfriend, not respond to.   I feel like blocking and ignoring adds fuel to the fire and proof that this is all Sidney's fault.  I use social media less and less but my kids activities and schools make many announcements there that are never sent in any other way. Any advice?

[Lillith65]

My rule is that if they make me uncomfortable and don't respect my boundaries then they have no place in my life. I am in touch with two cousins. Neither of them mention my family to me 😊

[Amadahy]

Hi Sidney37,
If you click on your screen name (top right corner of screen) and go to your home page, there is a function on the left, just under your screen name that lets you search your posts.  Hope you can find the information that was helpful!

[Sidney37]

Thanks.   I'll try to find it that way! 

[MamaDryad]

My advice is this: if your VLC cousin isn't a flying monkey, he will understand if you need to distance yourself from him for a while and will be open to resuming contact when you're ready. The other one, sadly, doesn't sound like someone who respects boundaries.

Somewhat relevant: I posted this last summer: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=80786
I continued to keep this person very much at arm's length, and she clearly read my signals and respected my boundaries. When she did finally contact me again, it was for a good reason, and it turns out that she is whatever the opposite of a flying monkey is: she cares about both me and my mother and is has said explicitly that it would not be good for me to be in my mother's life and that I'm doing the right thing. People who care about you and are good at boundaries will understand if you pull back for a while and won't punish you for it.

[BettyGray]

This can be tough - especially after several years of NC. Most of the FMs were obvious right away - I knew  who would defend my Nmom. Pretty much everyone. All blocked.

You mentioned your cousins in their 20s.  I never blocked my nephew (now 27, 22 when I went NC). BUT... since the pandemic, he has popped up in DMs on social media. I never blocked him because he didn't do anything wrong. But I also knew he would never go against his dad (GC brother) and his grandmother (Nmom), who brother had convinced was a "saint." 

So I did nothing. But I also didn't hear from him - at all. Suddenly I get these messages saying how much he misses and loves me, that I was always his favorite aunt, etc. He begged me to call him. My first thought was - if I do, now they will all have my new phone number.

Then I get a message saying how much he needs me (and DH) in his life, how he won't tell anybody if I decide to get in touch, and then this (paraphrasing):
I have found out more about the family in the last couple of years and understand why you did what you did - it's ok if you don't get in touch. Switched between that and then please call me, I need you in my life. Then goes on to trash my sister and other brother. But not my NPDparents or his dad.

What exactly did he find out? There are some egregiously awful things - I have no way of knowing. Was I being baited into feeling I had an ally? I felt awful not responding (was it a cry for help? was it a FM?). Another comment "sometimes I hate that we were born into this family, but I am so glad you were a part of my early life..."

I knew I was never going to break NC. But as the weeks went by, I was able to focus on the language he used.

There was a lot of "I need" and "I want" and other statements that had nothing to do with me. Not one mention of the pandemic or concern for my safety. There was plenty of flattery, and "I understand if you don't respond/you don't have to respond", but then contradicted with more pressing me to get in touch.  It seemed like "I respect your boundaries but I am still going to DM you."  Mixed messages.

I thought about it some more and realized that he had FIVE YEARS to do this and didn't until recently. And that he had never returned my communications before NC. Granted he was a kid/teen and I live far away, but still... I tried (with all of them), from a distance. In 20 years, neither of my brothers or father EVER called me, sent a birthday present (a few random cards over the years). Mom never emailed or texted me, she waited for ME to call HER every Sunday, then showed no interest in my life. Sister called to talk about herself, or more likely, check in to get info for my mom.

I started to think that he is either an unwitting FM or perhaps totally on board with his part in sucking me back in. It's easy to ascribe good intentions, especially when it is a beloved niece or nephew. But with vague, belated attempts to reach out, it seems less sincere. Plus, I had no direct proof that it was even him sending the messages.

I still haven't blocked him, but I have muted him and he doesn't show up in my DMs. He doesn't know he's muted, so it's a little easier on my conscience.

I suppose had he said "I found out more about the family and I think it's horrible how they treated you," I might have felt differently. Or that he had drawn his own boundaries and rejected their toxicity. Or that he had started therapy, or moved away from them, or shown more concern for me and less for himself.

He is a good-hearted kid. He didn't choose this family. He was brainwashed by people who were brainwashed. And he can't possibly understand that NOTHING about that family is normal. His dad has parentified him since he was a child. My brother cheated on nephew's mom so she divorced him. He never paid child support, held a real job, got therapy (Nmom strongly opposed it - even though he was severely depressed and obviously needed professional help),m. Brother discouraged the kid from going to college (how dare you leave me! College is a waste of money and my degree never did a thing for me! Yeah, it doesn't if you don't work), started getting the kid high when he was like, 15. Tried to be his "friend" and not a parent.

Now the kid is 27, supporting his dad financially, has no direction in life, is basically a carbon copy of his father, and has no romantic relationship that I know of.  When I was his age, I had a decade worth of therapy, a college degree, had enjoyed corporate job success, then opened my own business, had lived in different parts of the country, had traveled, and was happy with my choices. Through no encouragement of my family.

But anyway, I feel for him, I really do. But even though I do assume not everyone is a FM, when I use rationality and logic, I lean more toward thinking he most likely is. I hate that we are both in this situation we didn't choose. I realize it's possible to not see what is in front of your face, not have the courage to go against the tribe, and be totally ignorant of a toxic family. But in the end he is a grown adult and is responsible for his choices too.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi Sidney37 and Liz1018 - this discussion and concept is very interesting to me, and helpful to me in my own situation....thank you for sharing. It's amazing how the subtlety of flying monkeys can go unnoticed. It's really hard to suss out FM from non-FM until you get a serious indication that the individual themselves is being abused by the PD, or if they completely validate you early on...until then I feel like I can never really know.

My M (extreme covert NPD tendencies) is a FM for my older sibling (uNPD, full-blown PD I'm sure.) She's been writing me syrupy sweet emails trying to illicit contact with both my siblings again at the complete expense of the truth and my feelings (I'm NC with all currently), when my last forms of contact with both were downright nasty and NC is for a good reason.

If anyone else were to read the message they'd probably think it was extremely kind and well-worded. "Why wouldn't you respond?!" They'd say. There's a part of me that really, really wants to. But then you kind of read between the lines.... you decipher what the words are *really* saying, the things that are loudly unsaid, the actions (or lack of actions) that say something completely different, what that person is *really* trying to get you to do, the suppressing of the truth/gaslighting, and when you look, and look, and look, there's no sign of actual accountability or wanting to acknowledge your hurt, or your story. (Plus my M tried to say things that made her sound extremely saintly....the *real* message was "your feelings don't matter." The loud, unspoken message in all this.) Your communication with your nephew rings similar bells for me, Sidney.

Everyone's different, I'm sure. But I'm personally likely to see FM's in just about anyone who is close/in contact with UNPD sibling and M. People may not realize they're themselves FMs at a bare minimum just by getting information about you and retrieving it back to the PD source, which they then use to feed themselves and also engineer their "next move". Some PDs don't know what they're actually doing, and as such of course some FMs REALLY have no idea!

Which I see that happening with my M: she's enlisting her own FMs (TWO whole troops/layers of flying monkeys!!!!) I'm having relatives and close friends of M and UPDsis who have not been in contact much, suddenly liking my posts, commenting on them, etc. and coming out of the woodwork and congratulating me on stuff. It's SO fishy. Even if they mean well, I've started blocking/banning these people from seeing or interacting with my life, it feels like it's no coincidence and just a big information/speculation mission now that I don't respond or answer to FOO communication anymore. It means my M has told these people "my child blocked me and I don't know why" and obviously dragging them into the picture too.

I'm sure they all "mean well." But one of the tricky things with my M: I think her only real foundation for a relationship with me (she was very disinterested/dismissive/demeaning/neglectful to me as a young child, as I was not a girly girl, I was a tomboy, and just not the daughter she wanted...i was "too weird") is because I got out of the FOO and actually became successful in making an independent living, and I'm in a healthy relationship, and she really, really, really wishes she could take public credit for it with her friends and say "This is my child!!!!!" Because my siblings on the other hand are all struggling in their own ways (I don't judge them and have even tried encouraging them in different ways, but part of my enmity with them I really do think is because I wanted more out of life than they've had the courage to pursue...even though they could easily do that themselves, but I guess everything they do makes them fe bad about themselves).

These FOO/close friends that are suddenly materializing? I think they were her "audience," honestly, that my mom paraded me to, and she's told them somethings up... and here they come! I have a fairly normal and simple life and marriage, it is crazy that even just that is a huge source of pride and attention for her....while the whole time she has turned her back on me when I talked about the pain, sacrifices, loss, therapy, etc. I went through just to have this "normal" life and resist the trauma of my childhood from limiting me.

The concern/interaction from her and her FMs towards me isn't actually about *me*, it's about the image I've offered her to help disguise our family dysfunction while my emotional well-being could be burnt at the stake for all they care. When they don't have access to *any* of that, though, the dominoes start to fall and I'm hanging back, waiting to see the true nature of things once that happens. Like MamaDryad said, healthy people will respond favorably and understandably to space and distance...once full NC space/distance are truly achieved between all FOO and FM's, I think I'll be learning a lot.