Flying Monkeys Nightmare

[lotusblume]

When I was very young, I had this recurring nightmare that the flying monkeys from the wizard of oz we're coming to get me.

This was a childhood recurring dream that foreshadowed my future!!! I have to LOL at the ridiculousness of it all.

I'm pretty much NC with my FOO, some extended family, and FOO friends who became meddlers/monkeys. It's been two years since this all began.

In the last two months, I've received hoovering attempts via social media by my mother first, then a sibling, then a fauxpology letter from sibling (ignored), then lovebombing emojis on my social media page from smothering grandma, and now the spouse of a meddling monkey, friends of my parents, send me a fb friend request!!

Comon!!! It's like a few months of relative peace, and then they all assemble in line to try to pull me back in.

Coincidence? I think not.

Anyone else experience flying monkeys in droves, and not in the initial extinction burst, but years later?

So very irritating and more than that, triggers emotional foggy crap, esp guilt feelings. I'm dealing with it but I'm so resentful. I am pregnant and I'm paying as much attention to my stress levels and mood as possible so my baby will not have some psychic trauma!!

Bad timing for a cluster of monkeys.

Is it ever good timing? 

Please share stories so we can laugh together at the insanity !!!

[BettyGray]

Hi there! Nobody responded to your post - sorry about that. I just posted on Sidney37's thread "When is a FM a FM?" with one of my stories.

For what it's worth, those monkeys in The Wizard of Oz scared the heck out of me when I was a kid. I also had nightmares about them swooping in and grabbing me. Them and the scary apple throwing trees...yikes!  It is still probably my favorite movie of all time (the hero's journey, the bonds of a FOC, home is where you feel safe and comforted etc).

The pandemic has really brought out the FMs, huh?  Yeah, the further the FM from center of immediate family are the funniest - shows their desperation and willingness to pull others into their drama). My best one was a friend of the family who I hadn't seen in 40 years - like I didn't see right through that. 

Then there were the crappy Christmas gifts they sent, birthday presents (all of which were thrown out or given to charity)...Postcards catching me up on some distant relative's desperate health situation - like nothing ever happened.

It stopped being funny when they tried to recruit members of my FOC. Reaching out to my sister-in-law on FB, guilting her  with a sob story, showing up at my elderly father-in-law's house uninvited after 5 years NC, sending my MIL nasty letters about her son (aren't significant others always the scapegoat?) ....

These are extremely stressful times. You have the additional stress of being pregnant in a pandemic, so you definitely don't need their drama. I have a feeling that lockdowns have forced them to be alone with their uncomfortable thoughts, or that they've been cooped up with family members whom they dislike, or the probably unlikely possibility that they regret their actions now that we live in a dangerously contagious world where any one of us could die or get severely ill. Grappling with one's mortality is a thing most people avoid, especially PDs - a smack of reality in their dysfunctional make-believe world. Oh well, sucks for them.

Please, please, please do not feel guilty. Well, it's natural to feel that way but dont let it overpower you. And certainly don't make decisions out of FOG. Your responsibility is to your child and yourself/FOO.  You need boundaries more than ever.  Stay safe.

[Adria]

I used to have nightmares of flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz myself. I was terrified of them and couldn't watch the show.  Like you, I wonder if it was a foreshadow of my future.  And yes, flying monkeys always seem to swarm at the very worst times possible.  It's like they have antennas or something and know when to strike. 

Sorry they are coming at you during such a vulnerable time. Take care of yourself and your baby. Hugs, Adria

[Boat Babe]

Not your circus. Not your flyng monkeys!

Hoover attempts are part of the shit show and I would treat them with the contempt they deserve. Maybe go back to the Toolbox and dust off a few techniques that you know work well in your situation.

Wishing you all the very best for you, your baby and your FOC. ❤️

[lotusblume]

Thank you all so much! I'm just ignoring everything now. I haven't even bothered blocking some flying monkeys, just ignore. Zero reaction.

I kind of want to ban one from fb page but I'm just like... meh. Too much energy put there in deciding.

They don't get it. At all. I've spelt it out explicitly to my parents, numerous times, and they are, from the looks of it, playing victim.

I reconnected with an old friend recently who I was not connected to during the whole original fiasco, and she said numerous sources were gossiping to her about me, claiming they were worried and my husband was controlling. Same tired narrative. It was so hurtful but not unexpected. Kind of blew my mind that it got to her via numerous sources despite the fact that we weren't even talking at the time.

It's really a distortion of reality my FOO has created and hold onto, despite all new evidence, and words straight out of my mouth, emails, phone calls, confrontations and clarifications during the NC/LC period breaks. But still, I am kidnapped by my loving spouse and they have no idea why I won't talk to them....

It's insane!!!

[BettyGray]

Oh my, not the dreaded "husband is controlling her" schpiel...

It's one arrow in their quiver and one of the most insulting. We are grown adults but so pathetic that we are being controlled. By our spouses. Pretty demeaning. DH and I have gotten quite a few laughs at this one, joking that they probably thinks he keeps me in a cage and uses brainwashing techniques to turn me against them. Like a cult leader. Even though they're the ones in the cult of FOO manipulation.

It's pretty hilarious and  SO amazingly preposterous. They think so little of us that we aren't even capable of making our own decisions. Imagine the amount of mental contortions they are making and how much energy they are putting into creating a false narrative. Then to go on to smear you? Who does that? Oh right, these people.

I wonder, when they tell people this, if people look at them like theyve completely lost their minds.

Hopefully you'll get to the point where it doesn't hurt as much, but you're doing the right thing by ignoring. To engage otherwise is to give them an opportunity to think they got to you.

In the meantime, entertain yourself and DH with scenarios they've probably dreamed up. Because the controlled by DH is about as insane as your being abducted by aliens.

[lotusblume]

You're right, it is super insulting! I'm sorry you experienced that too.

We do have to laugh about it, once the crying is done lol.

They actually all accused him of controlling me before I broke contact, which is why I broke contact in the first place. They all went insane trying to control me and projected it onto a man they barely knew or had the decency to open up to. He was a foreigner in an extremely enmeshed family.

One of the best ones I heard from my mother after initial NC attempt was "I thought you were dead in a ditch!!!" Hysterical. It was something reminiscent of the paranoia about everything that was part of my youth, and a strange tic in the maternal side of the foo.

I actually confronted my father and another family member, saying they were projecting control onto my DH since they were controlling me my whole life!

*crickets*

They know exactly why I am emotionally distanced. They know what I want (an apology, self-reflection on their part, and change of behaviour). I have been explicit about it with most of my FOO.

They are not capable, so they create distortions to put the blame elsewhere.

The only person I never told off was my flying monkey gma, who is hovering now. She betrayed me big time, and I realized how controlling, emotionally manipulative and toxic she was. She harassed me like crazy, completely engulfing and knows no boundaries. I never gave her an explicit explanation, I just dropped out. I couldn't handle it at the time. And now, I have no idea what to say to her, and if confronting her would be healing for her/me or just another shitshow that would drag me backwards by a year into the fog.

[DistanceNotDefense]

lotusblume - if anything more could shock you, my own FOO (well, it was an idea planted by my uNPD and younger sister) built up a scenario among themselves that my husband is controlling me, abusing me, beating me and holding me hostage, too. (And Liz1018 yes - exact same thoughts as you...how preposterous that they would cook that up instead of seeing me as a human being who chooses to be with someone instead of someone who is "forcefully stolen from family" - they wish!)

We joke about it, too. (The cage jokes especially... "Sorry can't come to the holidays, my husband won't open my cage door") But we are also kind of in that hurt and confused stage as well, especially my husband, he feels guilty for everything my family has done. Worse, I confronted multiple family members about it and they deny that the idea was even real or talked about, and made it seem like I was the crazy one for even bringing it up (though they spread it to a close family friend who alerted me of this "rumor"). Yeah, right. They spread the idea around with *just enough* plausible deniability that they could gaslight me and try to sweep it under the rug.

But the fact that it's so NOT true is enough for us to realize how ridiculous and awful it makes my family seem (husband says it feels "vile"), and it helps me to keep continuing keeping my family at arm's length for now. It's one of the lowest moves for sure from and enmeshed family.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Ugh. I’m really sorry you all went through this. Reading this I’m reminded of my sister and her uNPD husband. My uPDparents said all that stuff about my BIL. He’s controlling her, separating her from faaaaamily

The thing is, he WAS. I’ve been on the phone with my sister in the past and talking about some particular concerning behavior I’d observed, only for him to pop on the line and reveal that he’d been eavesdropping the whole time!!! For just one example. It’s not uncommon for ACONs to marry with someone with similar dysfunction, after all.

I guess the difference is that my parents were perfectly content to smear my sis and BIL to their whole acquaintance, but when I suggested they directly speak to sis if they had concerns, no they couldn’t possibly do THAT. It would only push her further away. I even pushed back and said well talking about it to Larry, Moe, and Curly all the time certainly isn’t helping you with sis, I got, “But WE need support from our FRIENDS!”

My sister’s actual good didn’t enter into the equation whatsoever for them. I was willing to risk my sister liking me in order to tell her what I saw. To tell the truth. I think that’s why our families hate us. We tell the truth and don’t prioritize what they want to think.

“They know exactly why I am emotionally distanced. They know what I want (an apology, self-reflection on their part, and change of behaviour). I have been explicit about it with most of my FOO.”

[BettyGray]

Cordelia, so sorry to hear about your sister's controlling husband. Unfortunately this really does happen and it is tragic. Usually there are signs, but those under the spell of a narc rarely see it until it's too late.

Distance, you had me laughing out loud with your cage comment. It's just so ridiculous the things controlling people come up with to project onto innocent people.

I guess they think that loyalty to the family is to go unquestioned and outsiders are a threat. My Nmom scared off 4 of my brothers' wives, and my sister is 51 and never married. They all made the mistake of trusting NM over their spouses or boyfriends, even confiding in her about their marital problems! Well this surely gave her a playground to convince her kids that they shouldn't trust anyone but her!

But when they came for DH, especially when he was nothing but kind and respectful to them, sealed it for me. They never seemed to understand the concept of creating a new family through marriage. I married an intelligent, caring, empathetic, talented, kind and thoughtful person and my NM never once supported me for marrying a good man.

I think some of it is jealousy. NM saw how good DH was to his own mom and it shined a spotlight on her so so failures. She and Nfather had a terrible relationship, built on disloyalty and cruelty. DH and I have a tight bond, and it's obvious our loyalties lie with one another.

Lotusblume- "dead in a ditch!"  Good one. NM used to say that to me in high school if I was 5 minutes late for curfew. It's always the most dramatic reaction, logic be damned!

It does hurt, but honestly it seems like such a common thing PDs use to justify their hairbrained  grievances that eventually we learn it's not even really that personal - it's just a view into their warped bubble of magical thinking.

Now if you'll excuse me, DH says no more phone, It's time to go back in the cage! 

[Sidney37]

Oh the "he's controlling her" line.  It's definitely another tactic of so many of our NPD mothers. 

I have no doubt that my mother is telling her church friends that DH is controlling and that is why I'm not talking to her.     It struck me the other day that she is so controlling over my father that she sees the fact that my DH has any opinions at all as him being controlling.  Sigh... My enD isn't allowed to have an opinion on furniture, paint colors, anything to do with me, where they vacation, what they eat for dinner. Pretty much nothing. He is not allowed to express an opinion on or a like/dislike for anything, so my DH shouldn't have an opinion on anything either. 

When she found out that DH and picked out a sofa together and I let him express an opinion,/preference she determined that he was controlling.  I didn't love the sofa, but part of marriage is compromise.  I picked out another sofa for another room by myself, but that wasn't controlling.    When he suggested years ago that paint color that I picked for our family room was too dark, she insisted that he was controlling me.   He shouldn't have any opinions on paint.  He was a "chauvinist"!  After talking to her (still in the FOG), I insisted that we go with this dark color.  Needless to say, it didn't take long before I decided that we needed to repaint it a lighter color.  It was terrible and too dark.  Once I bought an item for our house on clearance that was seasonal.  I left it out until DH got home from work so he could see it before I shoved it into the basement to be used the following year.  She was convinced that was because he was controlling me. NO!! I was being kind and showing him the item that I bought so he could see it!  He's allowed to have opinions.  In her opinion,  husbands should have no opinions about anything because my dad isn't permitted to have an opinion about anything. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Where did "dead in a ditch" come from? And where are all these ditches full of dead bodies?

[lotusblume]

Where did "dead in a ditch" come from? And where are all these ditches full of dead bodies?

LOL!!!
It's this very strange fixation on kidnapping, abduction, and murder, very paranoid and unreasonable, and seems to be passed on through generations! I've seen others speak of that too. I don't quite understand the roots of that.

Oh the "he's controlling her" line.  It's definitely another tactic of so many of our NPD mothers. 

I have no doubt that my mother is telling her church friends that DH is controlling and that is why I'm not talking to her.     It struck me the other day that she is so controlling over my father that she sees the fact that my DH has any opinions at all as him being controlling.  Sigh... My enD isn't allowed to have an opinion on furniture, paint colors, anything to do with me, where they vacation, what they eat for dinner. Pretty much nothing. He is not allowed to express an opinion on or a like/dislike for anything, so my DH shouldn't have an opinion on anything either. 

It's such projection isn't it! And isn't it funny, if she's used to dominating her husband she sees any signs of assertiveness in him as domination of you?

My sister's actual good didn't enter into the equation whatsoever for them. I was willing to risk my sister liking me in order to tell her what I saw. To tell the truth. I think that's why our families hate us. We tell the truth and don't prioritize what they want to think.

Exactly. That's one thing that bothers me so much about foo and flying monkeys. Instead of gossiping, why don't you just ask the person?!? If you do, and they say it's all good, why don't you observe for yourself if you're still worried, and stop gossiping?!?

The two things are the same, the dead in the ditch thing and "we are soooooooo worried about you (that we created extremely damaging and far reaching rumours about you and your husband)". It is a need to control, it is hyper-anxiety enmeshment, and a no-boundaries type of relationship, where if you don't spill about every minute detail of your life, your life is surely in danger.

[lotusblume]

Cordelia, so sorry to hear about your sister's controlling husband. Unfortunately this really does happen and it is tragic. Usually there are signs, but those under the spell of a narc rarely see it until it's too late.

Distance, you had me laughing out loud with your cage comment. It's just so ridiculous the things controlling people come up with to project onto innocent people.

I guess they think that loyalty to the family is to go unquestioned and outsiders are a threat. My Nmom scared off 4 of my brothers' wives, and my sister is 51 and never married. They all made the mistake of trusting NM over their spouses or boyfriends, even confiding in her about their marital problems! Well this surely gave her a playground to convince her kids that they shouldn't trust anyone but her!

But when they came for DH, especially when he was nothing but kind and respectful to them, sealed it for me. They never seemed to understand the concept of creating a new family through marriage. I married an intelligent, caring, empathetic, talented, kind and thoughtful person and my NM never once supported me for marrying a good man.

I think some of it is jealousy. NM saw how good DH was to his own mom and it shined a spotlight on her so so failures. She and Nfather had a terrible relationship, built on disloyalty and cruelty. DH and I have a tight bond, and it's obvious our loyalties lie with one another.

Lotusblume- "dead in a ditch!"  Good one. NM used to say that to me in high school if I was 5 minutes late for curfew. It's always the most dramatic reaction, logic be damned!

It does hurt, but honestly it seems like such a common thing PDs use to justify their hairbrained  grievances that eventually we learn it's not even really that personal - it's just a view into their warped bubble of magical thinking.

Now if you'll excuse me, DH says no more phone, It's time to go back in the cage! 

LOL!!

I'm so sorry you went through that too. My uNPD sister also did a similar orchestrated smear against my DH. It started when we were dating and I was still in contact with my FOO. When I quit my job, she went postal on me, telling me I was ruining my life, and blaming my husband, saying he was controlling and isolating me.

I was so enmeshed with my FOO that their craziness started to sow doubts. It caused a lot of relationship problems between him and I because I wondered if I could trust him. It really played with my head. We were on cloud nine before all that happened, and then those kind of accusations poisoned our early relationship. Very complex stuff. And I ended up talking to my FOO about relationship issues we were having, totally a boundary crossing and betrayal of my DH at the time, which unfortunately added fan to the flame.

So it's complicated because they started a crazy narrative, they kind of brainwashed me, I started to doubt, I had huge cognitive dissonance, and DH and I had massive problems because of it (way behind us now and we are super happy and healthy.) We both had baggage to work through, and we have and still work on ourselves and are super tight. But the foo just twisted everything, invented crap, and spread rumours that ended up reaching my extended family, family friends, old estranged friends, and even colleagues of my DH!! It was outrageous and completely heartbreaking.

By the way, these rumours happened after I had reassured them that me and DH were great and my beef was with them.

But they will forever think it is all big bad DH's fault. That also makes it feel impossible to ever reconcile. I know they blame him and it's insane to what level they will scapegoat the both of us.

[DistanceNotDefense]

lotusblume...your last message is almost exactly what I've been through these last couple years, and even to farther back when my DH and I were first dating. Almost to the letter!

Reading your last message is honestly so validating. It's been so bizarre to think, "how could this possibly happen to anyone else? Who do I talk to about this?" MY family all ganging up together to support their mutual fantasy that my DH is a wifebeater. And then I spend some time on this forum and realize how common this type of spouse-smearing actually is!

I also realized how enmeshed I am/was with my FOO because they got in my head about my DH almost from the very beginning, too. They even had a "sit down" with me the first year we were dating because they thought he was too opinionated! He just wasn't someone who was forced to filter who they were like all of us were by the PDs in our FOO. It was a threat to them that he didn't like precisely what they liked and that he would voice that. It poisoned my own mind and made me look for abusive traits in him....DH isn't perfect and can be rough around the edges, but is far from abusive!

Before long I realized that I was acting out my FOO's agenda without even realizing it. Confiding in any of them about marital problems turned out to be terrible, and I think I was even triangulating him without realizing it, because that's just what my FOO did naturally about anything. I had no awareness. It created problems in our marriage that nearly made it implode....

When I went to therapy and then found these support groups (and this forum), I "woke up." My husband and I are super tight, right as rain now, SUPER happy (the hallmark of my relationship with him is unimaginable moments of bliss and gratitude, tbh, though it's not without it's strife....but the strifes worth it!), and it's mostly because I purged myself of my FOO's dysfunctional patterns that we're doing even better now and stayed together. But I really think FOO were hoping for the "other shoe to drop" so to speak when we were having issues, and that would be me leaving him to "return to the fold."

When it became clear that wasn't happening, that I was actually putting my DH and FOC first (and working on things with much success), that's when the smearing by the PD in my FOO began (and everyone became a flying monkey to her cause): it just doesn't compute that a relationship with him is healthier than with them. It's easier to believe he's beating me, controlling me, and cowing me into submission apparently! They also didn't want to acknowledge that our abusive FOO upbringing had a huge impact on me specifically, and that reverberated through our marriage too, but that's a long story for another time.

I also saw my confiding in FOO about my marital issues, which was the fuel for all this, as an awful failure on my part and a hard lesson learned. And that's what spurred me to confront it and draw a deep line in the sand with my FOO: making it clear that DH and I were good, we were healed, and doing OK, but condemning the awful rumors of untrue abusiveness on his part and marking that as an official rupture between me, my husband, and his in-laws, and putting the ball in their court in terms of figuring out how to mend and repair that (surprise surprise....they haven't gotten around to it, just more sweeping under the rug). It reached a friend of ours, that's how we found out....and also found out the PD was looking for ways to contact my DH's ex to get dirt on him and support her narrative!  (she wouldn't find anything of course, but really????)

So for that, I went NC/LC and at this point it's pretty much NC. But thanks again for sharing your background with all this, lotusblume. You have no idea how much it validates the past few years of my life and my choices. 

[lotusblume]

lotusblume...your last message is almost exactly what I've been through these last couple years, and even to farther back when my DH and I were first dating. Almost to the letter!

Reading your last message is honestly so validating. It's been so bizarre to think, "how could this possibly happen to anyone else? Who do I talk to about this?" MY family all ganging up together to support their mutual fantasy that my DH is a wifebeater. And then I spend some time on this forum and realize how common this type of spouse-smearing actually is!

I also realized how enmeshed I am/was with my FOO because they got in my head about my DH almost from the very beginning, too. They even had a "sit down" with me the first year we were dating because they thought he was too opinionated! He just wasn't someone who was forced to filter who they were like all of us were by the PDs in our FOO. It was a threat to them that he didn't like precisely what they liked and that he would voice that. It poisoned my own mind and made me look for abusive traits in him....DH isn't perfect and can be rough around the edges, but is far from abusive!

Before long I realized that I was acting out my FOO's agenda without even realizing it. Confiding in any of them about marital problems turned out to be terrible, and I think I was even triangulating him without realizing it, because that's just what my FOO did naturally about anything. I had no awareness. It created problems in our marriage that nearly made it implode....

When I went to therapy and then found these support groups (and this forum), I "woke up." My husband and I are super tight, right as rain now, SUPER happy (the hallmark of my relationship with him is unimaginable moments of bliss and gratitude, tbh, though it's not without it's strife....but the strifes worth it!), and it's mostly because I purged myself of my FOO's dysfunctional patterns that we're doing even better now and stayed together. But I really think FOO were hoping for the "other shoe to drop" so to speak when we were having issues, and that would be me leaving him to "return to the fold."

When it became clear that wasn't happening, that I was actually putting my DH and FOC first (and working on things with much success), that's when the smearing by the PD in my FOO began (and everyone became a flying monkey to her cause): it just doesn't compute that a relationship with him is healthier than with them. It's easier to believe he's beating me, controlling me, and cowing me into submission apparently! They also didn't want to acknowledge that our abusive FOO upbringing had a huge impact on me specifically, and that reverberated through our marriage too, but that's a long story for another time.

I also saw my confiding in FOO about my marital issues, which was the fuel for all this, as an awful failure on my part and a hard lesson learned. And that's what spurred me to confront it and draw a deep line in the sand with my FOO: making it clear that DH and I were good, we were healed, and doing OK, but condemning the awful rumors of untrue abusiveness on his part and marking that as an official rupture between me, my husband, and his in-laws, and putting the ball in their court in terms of figuring out how to mend and repair that (surprise surprise....they haven't gotten around to it, just more sweeping under the rug). It reached a friend of ours, that's how we found out....and also found out the PD was looking for ways to contact my DH's ex to get dirt on him and support her narrative!  (she wouldn't find anything of course, but really????)

So for that, I went NC/LC and at this point it's pretty much NC. But thanks again for sharing your background with all this, lotusblume. You have no idea how much it validates the past few years of my life and my choices. 

I can relate to every detail of what you wrote here, our situations are eerily similar!!! I'm glad you find what I wrote validating, and thank you for taking the time to write this paragraph; the validation is mutual!

When you say they sat you down and had "a talk", the exact thing happened to me. I believe it was also because my DH was simply being himself. He treated my FOO with utmost respect, got along with my mother, asked my father for my hand in marriage. He met my siblings, took the time, and was happy I came from a good family initially. He was a complete gentleman.

He was so gentlemanly that when my bully of a sister made a comment that was subtly derogatory about me in front of everyone, he subtly defended me by throwing shade at her statement. I believe that is where it started to really turn into a competition for uNPDsis.

She was used to treating me as her puppet, and usually I would go along to get along, but I had my limits. My boundaries were getting tighter naturally, I was respecting myself more and felt I had the support I had never had before in my life with DH, whom I was dating at the time. So I started disengaging and putting up boundaries, after trying to have an honest talk with her about not wanting to be in conflict (an email she ignored).

That's when my parents had the sit down, not long after. They acted as a flying monkey for her, claiming she missed me, wanted to spend more time with me. My mother said that perhaps we were jealous of each other!! I said, I have no feelings of envy towards her, if anyone feels jealous it is her. I live my own life and am happy for others to live theirs.

Looking back, my parents were complicit then in the rumours about DH controlling me, mostly my father I think. My sis has the same sneaky manipulation tactics as he does. This whole shit storm smear was slowly brewing, and every time DH and I furthered our commitment to each other, every milestone, there was more strange behaviour that now I see more clearly. And eventually it all exploded and it was obvious that he was not accepted into "the family".

They never really cared that I was actually abused by other men, seriously had nothing to say about any men I dated who were destroying me in many ways. But the one who was on my team, who would stand up for me, love me, my soulmate? I think that would take too much away from them. They equated my healthy relationship with a projection of their abuse, and him stealing me from them.

" ... I really think FOO were hoping for the "other shoe to drop" so to speak when we were having issues, and that would be me leaving him to "return to the fold."

" It's easier to believe he's beating me, controlling me, and cowing me into submission apparently! They also didn't want to acknowledge that our abusive FOO upbringing had a huge impact on me specifically..."

Exactly!

In another similarity, my sis was apparently approached by a third party to talk to his malevolent BPD/NPD ex, which she claims she did not do. However, she did spread her concerns around to many of his colleagues that she was worried about me, that she thought we weren't talking because of him, that she thought he was controlling me... etc. Tons of damage caused. Serious accusations, combined with his ex's smear campaign.

It's hard to tell what exact part my sister had in it. When pushed, she admitted some. Other things, I found out from other people. But I do know she spoke with a LOT of people I knew and who knew DH, so regardless of her smear being more subtle and less overt than his ex, the two together caused a powerful tornado that was extremely abusive to my DH psychologically and cost him his reputation. He found out one day when someone approached him because they heard rumours he was a wife beater.

Truly disgusting!!!

I still gave my sister the benefit of the doubt, confronted her, asked her to help reverse those rumours and talk to people. I also asked her to write down exactly what she said to specific people, and provide testimony since we were consulting a lawyer.

She said she would, and then she backed down, stating she was "afraid lots of people would get in trouble"/be VICTIMIZED by US!!!

I think she just wanted to save her OWN reputation, and not officially confess to anything. Since she went back on her word and acted as a coward, I could see her actions did not match her words and I cut back contact again.

Since then I saw her playing the victim on social media, and to me directly, claiming she misses me and hoovering like crazy. One day, I just picked up the phone and confronted her with righteous anger, like I had never done before. I backed her into a corner and explained to her the immorality and consequences of her behaviours. I saw her mask slip, and I was reminded of when we were kids, before I got so brainwashed by my FOO, the truths I used to know, that she was a liar. That she was a wolf in sheep's clothing. As I was confronting her, she was saying, "stop! You're hurting me!" In a small voice, as if I were abusing HER!! She totally darvod me, I refused to accept it. She told me she felt like I had died, and I said that's your pain to deal with as a consequence to your actions.

I told her there were three requirements to us ever having a relationship.
1. Apologize to me, a real apology.
2. Same for DH, and to him, not to me for him.
3. Go to therapy since I don't think she could change her behaviour on her own, and I required a real change of behaviour.

She responded by getting nasty, and decided it was better we no longer talk. Hallelujah! Peace! For months!!!

Until a few weeks ago, I get a very manipulative, guilt-tripping, blame-shifting, faux-pology. The worst part is, my heart aches slightly, the part that is naive and wants to believe she's actually TRYING. The rational part of me knows this is a Hoover tactic, and she assumes no actual responsibility for specifics. She just wants to play pretend again until something sparks her envy and I go from being her "best friend" to the target of her abuse.

Thanks for listening. I wonder if u can relate to that too.     

[DistanceNotDefense]

lotusblume....yes, yes, and yes, I relate to almost every single last bit of this! Very eerily similar, a little different in some ways, but the spirit of the situation is the same. It's like the more you tell me, the more validated I feel, wow. I've heard accounts of spouse smearing around this forum, even from the smeared spouse themselves, but nothing as similar as your account!

Like your DH mine was incredibly genteel and put in a lot of work to impress my FOO. Even when they were initially unimpressed, because he didn't come from a "high class" background for lack of a better description (which is infuriating because my FOO is not even "high class" - they just like to act like we are, but we have nothing to show for it). He really did his utmost best.

He called my M to ask if it was OK to marry me. He put a lot of work into gift exchanges and celebrations during the holidays. He's even been very emotionally supportive of my siblings, and he didn't even have to be. By the time we were married it seemed my FOO was unanimously approving of him, obviously, since we were, well, getting married! But no, not really.

My DH has always felt judged by them, and it made it more difficult for him to "mix" with the family dynamic, which I think just made him stand out more and bothered FOO even more. They couldn't control him. They wanted *me* to control him. I look back on the whole history of it all and it's like he just couldn't win. Though I don't think it had much to do with him at all really, but everything to do with me, they thought they were losing me. (Especially my sisters, one of them I am like 99.9% sure is undiagnosed NPD).

Not to mention that when PD family would say "I like this, I like that" and he would simply disagree (which is called a "healthy debate", most healthy people do it!!!), it would put an even bigger target on his back. He was a problem because he voiced his opinion and it wasn't in line with my covert N/enabler M and uNPD sis. For a while I agreed with them, like "why can't you just try to get along with them better and not be so opinionated?" But after therapy I realize how messed up and triangulating the dynamic was.

He was just being himself. And some of my family members are mega-opinionated. It was a huge projection. They were not just in my head, but they were under my skin more than I had ever realized. I feel awful about how my husband has been treated all this time and it's a wonder he stuck by my side and saw things through with me.

Then there were instances where my DH was calling them out for saying racially problematic things, and my perspective began to shift. My uNPDsis "confronted" me about it and I almost couldn't believe it and that's where things went hugely downhill, and she cut me off for years after that as punishment. She nearly shouted on the phone at me when she told me to make my husband "stop doing what he does. Make him stop it. It makes me feel bad and I'm sure he does it to make me feel bad and you just stand by and let it happen because you enjoy it." For asking her and challenging her on statements tinged with racism?

It's so strange that that was the last straw, at least for one of my FOO members (the most PD of them all), and realizing how racist my FOO was, too. That's when the dominoes started to topple. And that's where I started to see how unhealthy my FOO was and clarity began to seep in. I stuck by my DH on that one and then watched everything slowly start to fall apart, and told uNPD sis that my DH "is not a dog I can ask to 'heel', he is a human being, this is between you and him so talk to him about it and leave me out of it if you have a problem with him." She did not like that.

Worse, when I started to have marital problems, it just seemed to be a further building of proof on their part that he was a bad person. It was like a stewing and slow-building case, they were defense lawyers trying to compile and build evidence from every little thing, and things I told one FOO member were not kept in confidence and spread throughout the entire FOO, and vice versa. I hugely messed up confiding with them about any of it. Especially after reading this article (though in my defense, my FOO went WAY out of left field on this one): https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/divorce-busting/201005/dont-ask-dont-tell-your-family

They didn't want to examine their own behavior at all, and the part they may have played in my DH's reluctance and anxiety about being part of the family dynamic (or their role in the trauma I was literally taking out on my husband). Like you said here:

"I saw her mask slip, and I was reminded of when we were kids, before I got so brainwashed by my FOO, the truths I used to know, that she was a liar. That she was a wolf in sheep's clothing. As I was confronting her, she was saying, "stop! You're hurting me!" In a small voice, as if I were abusing HER!! She totally darvod me, I refused to accept it."

I had all these memories of how my FOO treated me when young (and how much they lied, fact-warped, gaslighted, silent treatment...AND Darvoed!) that I had repressed and also thought I (and we) had "grown out of" but it's like FOO snapped their fingers over the past couple years and here I was, back in the scapegoat role I had as a child.

They themselves were too judgmental and opinionated from the get-go. The only conclusion that would do for them was to confirm to themselves that he was evil, they were good, and warp all the facts to support this conclusion along the way. And then it exploded, accelerated, and erupted this last year into the rumors about him beating me.

Like you with your sis, I don't have solid evidence that my *entire* FOO talked about it, only proof that one of them talked about it at length A LOT and another of them talked about it a little, definitely with the PD FOO member that started it all (uNPD sis). But there was so much proof, passive aggressive statements, and funny business (not to mention my gut instincts shouting loudly at me) that added up that talk about me and my marriage was bringing the rest of my family "closer" together in some weird and sick way, and that that was all they were talking and theorizing about: how my change in my life and personality was all because my husband was controlling and beating me.

And when my marriage started to improve immensely after therapy, in each of their own unique ways, my FOO members started to cut ties with me (and of course blame it all on me).

"That's when my parents had the sit down, not long after. They acted as a flying monkey for her, claiming she missed me, wanted to spend more time with me. My mother said that perhaps we were jealous of each other!! I said, I have no feelings of envy towards her, if anyone feels jealous it is her. I live my own life and am happy for others to live theirs."

That's where I'm at right now. My last line of communication was with my M and she made it clear she was "speaking for FOO as a unit" almost, and controlling the communication. No thanks!

"I also asked her to write down exactly what she said to specific people, and provide testimony since we were consulting a lawyer. She said she would, and then she backed down, stating she was "afraid lots of people would get in trouble"/be VICTIMIZED by US!!!"

I'm so sorry that your own DH's reputation was affected by this. SO awful, that you're having to go the legal route with this. But with this type of damage, you absolutely should! I hope you get something out of it. This is slander and defamation of character, no other way to put it.

I'm lucky that we live far from my FOO and that our social circle/network here where we live has very little overlap with the one that centers on my uNPD sis (which is actually a sad affair, she has hardly any social circle to speak of at all since she's cut off so many people over the years).

But I sometimes worry how much more this could be escalated that I've cut off contact for right now. Who knows what she, or other FOO members, or more than one of them as a collective will do to punish me, push me back into contact with them (no doubt just to eat crow and apologize), or to confirm their false reality about my DH. It is definitely scary when PD's masks are slipping and they're on the lam like this, there's no telling what they will do.

"I told her there were three requirements to us ever having a relationship..."

I still need to communicate this clearly with my FOO. Things happened so fast after I heard of these rumors that it blew up and I just requested space and that's it (which a few of them have done a very bad job at honoring and respecting, so I just had to block them). I said they could get in touch with me by email, but I blocked them on social media, texts, and calls for a time just to clear and literally purify my head for a bit, every communication with them muddied the waters and confused me, and was rife with potential manipulation.

I've removed some blocks and it's silent for right now, but funnily none of them have tried to email to continue communication with me as requested. (I wonder how long it will take them to figure out that maybe emailing me will do the trick, like I asked...? Other forms of communication get poisonous too quickly. My M insists we must talk on the phone....no thank you...I know most people say phone conversations are the best way to clear the air, but she is too good at confusing, word salading, tangenting, gaslighting, fact warping, and pretty much hijacking the entire convo I can't even deal with it!)

"The worst part is, my heart aches slightly, the part that is naive and wants to believe she's actually TRYING. The rational part of me knows this is a Hoover tactic, and she assumes no actual responsibility for specifics. She just wants to play pretend again until something sparks her envy and I go from being her "best friend" to the target of her abuse."

Yes, me too. Every day. I have good memories with all FOO members and I love each of them. One of them I too once called a best friend. The loss is heart-breaking, and it is grief.

A part of me scans for the good in all of them regularly, doubts my own narrative to ensure that I'm not the one who is completely whack, but always runs into the conclusion that everything thus far has been carefully designed to shame me and fill me with guilt, all so they can carry on with their illusion. But I feel I made the right decision, for myself and my DH. This charade had to end and this was my way of fixing the dysfunction that caused him such harm and grief in the first place, and influenced our marriage so negatively.

All of this is so difficult! Anyways wow this message is WAY too long, time to wrap it up. Again, so validating for me to hear your story lotusblume, and in terms of the very real legal harms that have been wrought on you by your sibling, I really do hope you find closure and some justice. What has happened to you, and your husband, both of you do not deserve it, it is so unjust and so unfair.

[lotusblume]

Distancenotdefense,

Thanks for sharing more about your experience. I find it painful to read,
I feel compassion for the both of us! It is also confusing when we feel complicit in the smear campaign somehow, but we are not. Making regretful decisions like discussing your marital problems with your FOO should just be a lesson to learn,
It does not entitle them to ramp it up, twist reality and gossip about you with blatant lies. Things like that should be kept confidential, not used against you and your spouse in order to keep controlling you.

So if in hindsight we made mistakes along the way, those are some pretty brutal consequences.

" "I told her there were three requirements to us ever having a relationship..."

I still need to communicate this clearly with my FOO. Things happened so fast after I heard of these rumors that it blew up and I just requested space and that's it (which a few of them have done a very bad job at honoring and respecting, so I just had to block them). I said they could get in touch with me by email, but I blocked them on social media, texts, and calls for a time just to clear and literally purify my head for a bit, every communication with them muddied the waters and confused me, and was rife with potential manipulation.

I've removed some blocks and it's silent for right now, but funnily none of them have tried to email to continue communication with me as requested. (I wonder how long it will take them to figure out that maybe emailing me will do the trick, like I asked...? Other forms of communication get poisonous too quickly. My M insists we must talk on the phone....no thank you...I know most people say phone conversations are the best way to clear the air, but she is too good at confusing, word salading, tangenting, gaslighting, fact warping, and pretty much hijacking the entire convo I can't even deal with it!)"

I don't think you need to communicate what I did clearly. I'm not even sure if it's the right thing to do, if you would ask a psych lol. I just felt like I needed to stand up to her, to speak the truth once and for all, and to put the blame where it belonged instead of taking out my pent up anger on other people I love. It was extremely eye-opening, and I gave her that kind of ultimatum because I knew it would free me. It just happened spontaneously. I knew she could never agree to it, was not capable, and in fact I was putting a mirror up to her narcissism, which helped me to confirm it. That got rid of the guilt.

Which is why she used a guilt tripping, manipulative fake apology to try to suck me back in. That is exactly what makes her so malignant. She knows exactly what to do to influence my feelings, make me feel responsible for her, and in fact to reignite that familial trauma bond sibling relationship. So I just sat with the feelings, processed them, and did nothing.

Since you and I have been discussing it here, I have felt more fake guilt come to surface (triggered!). Totally okay, it's feelings I avoid, so I made an effort to find a way through...
Or to torture myself, whatever you want to call it. I have a social media account I needed to block people on, and while blocking her my morbid curiosity led me to view her page. It was enough to remind me of exactly what I knew was true in that phone call confrontation. It reassured me I had nothing to feel guilty about, and really want nothing to do with her.


On another note, I have been feeling this bizarre pull to my mother as I'm pregnant now, and she's not been hoovering me. I have her email unblocked as we are VLC. I wrote about her manipulation recently and why I pulled back even lower contact. It's for similar reasons you mention not wanting to talk to your mother on the phone.

I have had these fantasies of calling her and telling her the great news, and her being happy for me. Then I realize, the last milestones in my life that I expected her to be happy about, she was very strange, dismissive, rejecting and avoidant. Still, my inner child believes in the good mom, who will be overjoyed. And honestly, maybe she will! But likely that would morph into some form of engulfment. It's a very difficult thing to process.

Today I watched a homesteading video where they had to make a tough choice and put down their sick milk cow. I cried so much, uncharacteristically. I think I was letting out some of the grief, vicariously, of being pregnant and not making a big official announcement because I'm afraid it will get back to my FOO quicker, not being able to call my mom and tell her and know she'll be happy, of realizing my siblings and father are complete arseholes, and my whole extended family is just full of dysfunction that they scapegoat me for because they refuse to see. And because of that, I will get scapegoated every boundary I put up, and that includes the big one that's already here; the boundary between them and my unborn child.

I am grieving the wish I had a family that would be happy for me, or at least a level of dysfunction I could giggle about and roll my eyes. That's what it used to be, before I was red-pilled Out of the FOG.

I wouldn't trade anything for the truth, the amount of growth, healing and maturity I have developed is surreal, and I am an immensely better partner, and I will be a million times better equipped to be a good enough mother.

But I am grieving not being able to share this time with my FOO, despite everything they have put me through (and continue to). 

[lotusblume]

MAybe this should open up a new post, but has anyone felt this way while pregnant/ starting a family?

Has anyone had any positive results from giving another chance at a very boundaried relationship (when the perps have done nothing concrete to reconcile, only rugsweep)?

Anyone just accepted their FOO and stopped expecting them to change, and had any luck ?

I am pretty sure I know the answer. Lol. Hope you're all taking care and thanks for listening.

[SparkStillLit]

Blaaaarrrggghhhh, nooooo, pregnancy/having a baby made it a ZILLION times worse!!!
I mean my STARS you're already busy, you know? And then having to keep up your boundaries, and nmum came up with new shizz that I couldn't have imagined, PLUS increased bad behavior....
If you already red pilled yourself away and are keeping a safe distance, I say nothing could induce me to go back in pregnant, in hindsight.