New Here - Coping with a Host of Family Issues

[ScarlettOHara]

Hello everyone.  This is my first post here and it will probably get long.  I'm struggling to cope with my family. 

I'm the oldest of 3 girls.  I'm going to call my middle sister Mia and my little sister Leah, but obviously those are not their real names.  We're all in our 30s now and we're very close in age (spanning less than 4 years between all 3 of us).  We grew up in an emotionally abusive household.  The cycle of abuse was like a family calendar.  My dad has rage problems and I suspect BPD.  My mom is an enabler and martyr.  My dad would rage about any and everything on a pretty regular schedule growing up.  You never knew what would set him off or exactly when it would happen, but it was sure to happen.  My mom did nothing to protect us kids and my parents are still married today.

I guess I started realizing things were really dysfunctional in my family about 5 years ago.  I suspect Mia has BPD with depressive/suicidal tendencies.  She went from being a fun and normal person to being a total drain on me in our 20s.  I was definitely her person for our 20s and the first few years of my 30s.  But, then I had my own child and I purchased a business the same year.  I no longer had room for Mia's constant emotional drain.  She has become more and more emotionally draining.  A couple years ago she was hospitalized for suicide threats. 

Leah has rage issues like our dad.  She's also just kind of mean in general.  We had a falling out about a year ago.  I was at a concert with my mom, Mia and Leah.  The whole night they sort of left me out of conversation and put me in charge of everything that needed to be done (splitting the bill for dinner, finding an Uber, directing the Uber driver, etc).  At the end of the evening Leah spoke to me in a nasty tone and I just had an epiphany that I'm an adult and don't need to put up with her crap.  I gave my mom the keys to my car and I left in a different car (we were near my business so I had vehicles available).  I was just done with the three of them.  Well, you can probably guess how well that went over... My daughter's birthday party was a couple days later.  Leah showed up already in a rage.  Eventually she raged at me and when I tried to get her to leave my house she kicked me. 

My mom and Mia have spent the entire last year trying to get me to sweep everything under the rug.  They guilt me on a regular basis.  They're really starting to freak out now because the holidays are approaching and last year we (me, my husband, our daughter) did not attend.  I put my family in a time out from October 2019 through January 2020.  I slowly allowed more contact with my mom and Mia, but didn't want anything to do with Leah.  Leah could not accept that.  She decided the best course of action would be to blackmail me by threatening to show all of my Reddit posts to our entire extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.).  I had no idea she knew my Reddit handle, of course, and in the moment obviously didn't remember my entire posting history.  So, I did what she wanted, which was apologize to her and said things were fine.  Of course I didn't mean it though.  I had my Reddit posts deleted.  Since I guess she didn't get the desired outcome Leah made sure to remind me that she had screen shots and would share those a few weeks later. 

I just feel like there's nowhere to go from where I am.  I can't imagine a future where my family is a net positive thing in my life.  I also can't imagine life with them completely cut off.  I'm happy to never see Leah again.  Every time I spend more than a couple hours with Mia I feel more that way about her as well.  I'm so sick of being the emotional punching bag.  I'm sick of the guilt.  Family should treat you better than random people, yet mine treats me worse.  I don't want my daughter thinking that any of this is normal.  At the same time, my daughter loves my mom so much.  She still talks about her cousins and we haven't seen them in over a year.  I just don't know where to go from here, I guess.

So, today things are not good.  My mom and Mia are not happy with my decision to distance from Leah.  They tell me I'm using my daughter as a pawn and hurting her by not letting her be around Leah's kids.  My daughter really loved Leah's kids, but I just don't think it's good to be around any of them.  Even if Leah was not there, I don't trust my mom to treat all the grandchildren evenly.  I'm definitely a combo of the family hero and scapegoat.  I'm the most outwardly successful but also always asked to ignore or change my feellings

[Call Me Cordelia]

Who's using your daughter as a pawn, now? 

We have a lot in common. I too am the eldest of three sisters, Dad NPD/BPD rageaholic Mom enabler/martyr who derived her identity and purpose for living in my father. Being ignored and stuck with all the work of "family time" is also very familiar to me.

Your youngest sister's behavior is outrageous, to put it mildly. Physically hurting you in front of others in your own home? Overtly blackmailing you? And then the pressure is on YOU to make it right with the rest of the family? And you are accused of hurting other people by protecting yourself from abuse. Wow. Unbelievable, and yet so typical. Sounds like you are in the right place to get support.

Good for you on putting them on timeout. What have you learned from that timeout? How have you changed? How have your family members? As I was going through distancing myself through my own FOO, I had to separate the emotional side from the rational just to get through it. Best wishes and I look forward to seeing you more on the boards!

[ScarlettOHara]

Honestly, the time out was tough for me.  Prior to the TO I saw my family pretty often, at least every 3 weeks and often it was every week.  My mom would babysit pretty often, too.  So, I felt really isolated.  I had lost a significant part of my social life and also my babysitter so my husband and I couldn't go out anywhere together.  The time out was over the holidays and that was also rough.  Normally I would host Thanksgiving but we went to my in-laws instead.  I skipped the extended family holiday party and we went to an indoor water park thing instead of my mom's house for Christmas Eve. 

One of the big things I'm struggling with now is the guilt that Mia (not her real name) and my mom keep throwing at me about Leah (not her real name) and about the time out I took.  Both my mom and Mia claim I didn't tell them I was going to just disappear.   I know for a fact I told my mom though, which obviously she could have told Mia.  Triangulation is my mom's all time favorite activity, so I know they talked about me.  During the TO Mia was pregnant and I didn't participate in her baby shower (it was hosted at Leah's house, I am not insane).   The last time I saw Mia she really laid the guilt on thick about the holidays this year.  She said I should get over everything for our mom.  She said we don't know how many Christmases mom has left.  I asked if mom was sick and she said something along the lines of "You'd know if you were ever around or talked to anyone."  I told her that Leah has never apologized and Mia told me that I've never given a real apology in my life, either.  She basically turned things on me and wanted me to apologize for missing her baby shower.  Sad to say, I fell for it and paid lip service.  I'm not actually sorry for taking time for myself though.

I keep going back and forth about what to do for the future.  On one hand, sweeping everything under the rug and going back to "normal" seems a lot easier.  If I didn't have a daughter I would probably do that.  But, I don't want my daughter seeing adults becoming unhinged just because they were called out on bad behavior.  I don't think it's fair to my daughter to push her cousins into and out of her life repeatedly, either.  My mom has switched from trying to get me back together with Leah to just trying to get our kids together for some reason.  This is a summary of a recent text conversation:

Mom - I'm watching Leah's kids this weekend, can *kid* come?

Me - No, I'm not going to push *kid's names* into and out of *kid's* life like that.  I will probably never be on good terms with Leah again.  You should work on accepting that.

Mom - That is your choice.  I don't agree that it's the best choice for *kid* either

Me - I think avoiding abusive people is important.  Our family dynamic is toxic and absolutely nothing has changed in the last year.

Mom - I prefer to see the good in people.  Everyone annoys me at some point but everyone also brings such joy to my life.  I hope you are not disconnecting from everyone.

Me - I will be if the guilt trips don't stop.  Avoiding a violent rageaholic is not an unreasonable boundary.

My mom stopped responding at that point.  A few days later she asked when she could come and bring my daughter her birthday present.  I see so much manipulation in these conversations and it makes me want to just cut everyone off forever.  But, then I start wavering on it all.   I don't like the people that any of them are today.  They are all manipulative and I don't think any of them are capable of actually caring about me.  At most they care about how me not being around makes them look and/or that I won't do things for them. 

I don't know why but I am so confused.

[Tranquil]

This sounds very complicated. It sounds like Leah is a very angry person as well as your mom. No surprise there considering your family history. Although my parents were normally kind I did grow up thinking it was ok to take out ones anger on your family. Sounds like Leah never realized that’s not ok
Unless Leah confronts her anger and makes changes I don’t think you should be subjected to that. Let’s face it, she needs anger management. I’ve noticed that people who grow up with anger don’t always realize that it is not normal to yell or hit anyone. I suppose you could suggest maintaining your distance from Leah unless she tries counseling for her anger. It could be a help to her to realize how destructive to herself and others her anger is. Same for your mom. Mia sounds depressed and lonely. I say lonely because you say she changed at age 19. Could it have something to do with graduating H.S. And leaving friends?  My other thought is when personalities change suddenly it can be the result of trauma, abuse or rape. Might be worth seeing if she could open up about that time in her life. Sorry, it’s a lot and your not responsible for any of it. However it may be worth clarifying some things before you cut them off.

[ScarlettOHara]

This sounds very complicated. It sounds like Leah is a very angry person as well as your mom. No surprise there considering your family history. Although my parents were normally kind I did grow up thinking it was ok to take out ones anger on your family. Sounds like Leah never realized that's not ok
Unless Leah confronts her anger and makes changes I don't think you should be subjected to that. Let's face it, she needs anger management. I've noticed that people who grow up with anger don't always realize that it is not normal to yell or hit anyone. I suppose you could suggest maintaining your distance from Leah unless she tries counseling for her anger. It could be a help to her to realize how destructive to herself and others her anger is. Same for your mom. Mia sounds depressed and lonely. I say lonely because you say she changed at age 19. Could it have something to do with graduating H.S. And leaving friends?  My other thought is when personalities change suddenly it can be the result of trauma, abuse or rape. Might be worth seeing if she could open up about that time in her life. Sorry, it's a lot and your not responsible for any of it. However it may be worth clarifying some things before you cut them off.

Yes, Leah is learning now that no one is required to accept her rage.  I understand her because I've dealt with rage, too.  I just get incredibly angry sometimes.  But, I have learned other ways of coping.  I don't lash out at the people around me like she does.  She may be in counseling, but I don't think that would be enough for me to want her in my life again.  At least not without a real apology.  So far all I've gotten is a "sorry you feel..." type apologies.

As for Mia, I think she's a pretty classic case of BPD.  From what I've read it tends to set in during young adulthood, which is definitely when Mia began going downhill.  She's married and has a baby so I don't think she could really be that lonely.  I used to be close to her and I was definitely her emotional support person for many years.  She would text me almost daily and if I didn't text back quickly enough she would start freaking out.  She's still very picky about people responding to her texts quickly to this day.  I just don't care anymore, I guess.  I feel emotionally used up by her. 

My mom doesn't really rage, she's much more the passive aggressive, mope around and be sad type.  She expects me to cheer her up when she acts sad.  The problem is, just like Leah and Mia, she's done it so frequently I don't feel compelled to help anymore.  I more just annoyed. 

[Hepatica]

I'm sorry you're facing this challenge ScarlettOHara.

I distanced from my sister about three years ago and my parents could and can not take it. It was non-stop guilt tripping me from both of them and I really cannot take it. I wish I had great words of wisdom but it comes down to, for me, the choice of allowing drama in to your life by faking nice with the FOO which can open the door to further abuse into your life, or saying no, enough, I am taking this time alone to heal.

My mother had rage issues and my father was intermittently rage-full but mostly the enabler of my mother and certainly the master manipulator of the FOO. After reading Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving I woke up pretty fast to understand that my lingering depressions and anxiety have been C-PTSD and that to heal my physiological response to the past (and present) abuse, I need to protect myself.

I step aside from them now as a protective gesture toward myself and also as an example to my teenager that taking care of self is a responsibility and that if people are not respectful they don't get to participate in my life.

It is not an easy road. I am having a super hard time with it this week, wavering and feeling the loss and loneliness, but I know for certain going back into the toxic dynamic will not solve my loneliness. I have to forge a different and healthier life, or I will remain trapped in a very sick FOO that drags me down rather than lifting me up. I hope that ideally family is supposed to lift us up. That's what I'm trying to do with my teenager.  I figure that's my job and I love him and I wish for him to be happy. My FOO doesn't seem to care if I am happy or not and that is so sick.

It's a lot about coming to terms with the disorder in the family and sadly recognizing that they are not changing. I think that if anyone in my family was changing they'd come to me and I would feel the sincerity of their apology, but that has not happened.

This, as I said, is a very hard week for me, but most of the time I am distanced from them, I am much more at peace and that's the number one goal for me. I want to model peace to my teenager and I hope to break the pattern of cruelty I experienced in my childhood and adult years.

[Call Me Cordelia]

This is very confusing, tough stuff! And isn't it amazing how our love for our children helps us to grow and become healthy in ways we wouldn't have been motivated to do for ourselves?

Your family probably will not see what you see, or accept your reasons for doing what you're doing. That's okay. Your mother does not have to agree or understand. You do not have to explain anything. If you have a boundary, it's for yourself and possibly DD. I see a lot of manipulation in what you relate too!

This is weird but your mother wrote, "I do not agree." And then left it at that. She also simply dropped the conversation. You are allowed to do that too! You do not owe it to anyone to keep explaining when it's clear you aren't going to agree. That is standing your ground. Fortunately for you you are in charge of your own life and choices.

You have been pretty generous with explaining yourself, which with normal people is kind and helpful in reaching resolution of a conflict. However, with manipulators information becomes ammunition. When it became clear that working on you to simply sweep it under the rug with Leah wasn't going to work, the tactic became to use your daughter. At least that's how I'm seeing it.

Your instincts to protect her from witnessing dysfunction are right on, as well as protecting her from a probable on again/off again family relationship. It's not her cousins' fault, it is true, but it is wise to keep children out of the crossfire of adult conflict. Your duty is to your daughter.

I have struggled a great deal with the grief of my own daughter after having to go NC with both sets of grandparents and also losing all our extended family relationships in the aftermath. It's been tough on us all. And I'm positive it was the best thing I could have done for her in the circumstances, despite the grief. No family is better than a toxic one, in our case. My NF and my NMIL are both truly terrible people. My NF is especially psychotic and dangerous. And all the other people who would push me and my children back into danger are likewise not safe. And at minimum do not truly act for my children's best interests, whatever they may believe about that. It's my job to look out for my kids, and I cannot let them be intimate with people who will not put their safety first. There is a wide range between "intimate" and "NC," where we ended up, but with the particular dysfunction I was dealing with my choice was all or nothing. It took a while to get there, but no boundaries whatsoever were accepted. By any of the family, except my DH thank God. It was a journey. A really hard one, and I'm still on it. But again, I would do it all again for my kids' sake. I'm a better mother and we have a healthier, more peaceful family life. It's worth it to hang in there and stick to your truth and not let yourself get gaslit and manipulated.

[ScarlettOHara]

Call me Cordelia - I'm sorry you're dealing with this, too.  It's definitely a struggle.  Some days I think my mom is the biggest problem, other days it seems like my sisters are.  Oddly, my dad is just sort of missing in action with all of it.  When I did the time out last year  I heard from my dad once when he texted to ask if they could pick my daughter up from daycare.  I said no and that was that.  He never reached out to me at all otherwise. 

What I just can't get my head around is, why don't my family members want better for themselves?  I guess they are just more disordered than I thought, but I don't like feeling like crap after every family gathering.  I don't enjoy knowing that they are judging me and talking about me behind my back.  I don't like feeling like I'm less than in my family.  I'm determined to make sure my daughter doesn't feel that way.  I build her up.  I want her to be happy.

I also don't understand why they treat me pretty badly, but then when I want to pull away they all freak out as though that is the worst thing ever.  Why would you treat someone badly and expect them to stay?  If you treat them bad why would you want them to stay?  I hate that the way they treat me bad is always just on 'this side' of being deniable.  They use jokes instead of outright insults.  They always phrase things in such a way that to the untrained eye it doesn't seem like they have a mean intent.  I'm not sure if they're even consciously aware that they are mean. 

My mom asked to see my daughter this weekend.  My daughter loves spending time with my mom because my mom just gives here anything she wants.   I said she could since I know my daughter really wants to go, but I feel icky about it.  I feel like I'm putting her into the lion's den.  But, then I question if I'm just being paranoid.  My mom's main thing is triangulation.  I think we would have a totally different relationship if it were just me with no sisters.  It probably would still be unhealthy, but more of an "us against the world" thing instead of this Mia & mom or Mia & Leah or Mia, Leah and mom against me thing we have now.  Is it wrong to let my daughter be alone with my parents?  I should probably start limiting it to shorter visits or only visits where I can stay the whole time. 

[ScarlettOHara]

Reading another thread just got me thinking... I think I am addicted to the drama that comes with my family.  I don't like it, but it's like I'm constantly waiting and ready for it.  I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Does anyone else feel this way?   When I take breaks from them it's almost like I'm craving some drama.  I feel strange when it's not there.  I haven't figured out how to enjoy peace. 

For those who have been here longer, does that fade with time?  My family is emotionally exhausting, there is no doubt about it.  But I'm just so used to it that I don't know any other way.  I don't like silence.  When I'm at home or work I always have noise in the form of music or the tv on. 

My life is high stress and I sometimes fantasize about the day when it will be lower stress.  But then I wonder how I would actually cope with a life where I didn't have so much to worry about.  I'm not sure if I could cope with that.  I have so many people that depend on me right now that shedding my family is sort of a positive thing because I don't have space for them in my head.  But, I worry I'm so used to being emotionally on edge that I won't be able to handle calm. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Been out for a couple of days, but YES, I know what you mean about being addicted to the drama. I don't know how to cope with peace either, never having 100% had it, but there is always something. I suspect that even reading on here is something I do to fill the drama void.

Regarding your child going into the lion's den... I hear you on that too. I know everybody has to work out these things in their own way and so on. But I really believe in Too Toxic for Me, Too Toxic for My Kids. If I can't handle the manipulation, and I know there will be manipulation, why would I throw my kid into that situation on her own and expect her to come out just fine? The extent of the damage is unknown, but it's a safe bet there will be damage, even through simple exposure to dysfunction. I also believe in keeping kids out of the middle of adult conflict. You are not punishing by withholding permission here, I can see that's not your motive. It is tricky, because of course you would like your daughter to be able to enjoy family relationships. But a dependent child can't be kept off the parents' "side" and be neutral. Not that you wanted sides but here you are. When she is an adult she will make her own choices. But right now you are the gatekeeper to her relationships with other adults.

I am a bit rushed this morning, but I didn't want to leave you hanging any longer. Hopefully others will have some helpful insight.

[ScarlettOHara]

Hepatica - Like you I am struggling with things right now.  My daughter spent some time with my parents over the weekend and she was so happy.  She had such a good time and wants to do it again.  I feel like my parents are safe enough if there are no other kids around.  Triangulation and bowing to the worst behaved person are my mom's things.  DD is always well behaved, she's just a super easy kid.  When it's just her I feel like it's not much of a problem.  But, when her cousins are there that's when the problems creep in.  None of her cousins are as easy or well behaved as DD is.  So, naturally, my mom will ask DD to alter her feelings or behavior in order to accommodate the cousins.  That is what I cannot tolerate.  That's how I grew up and it's not fair or okay.

I guess I'm struggling with guilt right now.  I know my parents just want everyone to get along.  What they don't see at all is that it was the way they treated us kids that created this dysfunction in the first place.  I want everyone to get along, too.  But, I don't want to have to put up with abuse to achieve that.  I want to think my sisters have learned from the time out I took, but I know for a fact already that Mia (not her real name) has learned nothing.  Leah (not her real name) may have learned something, I don't know. 

Would I be insane to write my mom and sisters and rug sweep the assault last year?  I want to say something along the lines of "I am not over what happened but I am tired of thinking about it so I am going to get over it."  I would then lay out my boundaries... I am not to be spoken to in a condescending manner.  I am not an emotional support animal and I'm not responsible for anyone's feelings except my own.  If I become the family work horse and feel I'm being bullied or treated badly I will leave again.  Etcetera.  Is that insane?  I would not bring my daughter around the group right away.  I think she would only see my family in a group setting maybe twice a year.  I just don't trust them in that setting.

Even if I do sweep everything under the rug I would not go back to the way things were previously.  I am not going to be going to weekly family gatherings.  I won't allow myself to become emotionally close to them ever again.  It would be a polite, distanced type of thing. 

[Sheppane]

Hi Scarlett I am sorry you have this to deal with. I identify with a lot of what you wrote,  the triangulation, the "jokes", and the veiled manipulations which are as you said this side of deniable , always keeping you on your toes and making you feel like you are the crazy one ! It is very difficult to be on the receiving end of that level of dysfunction- the push pull - treat you badly but want you back. In my experience that is all about the threat to a disordered family system if one person is seen to be " pulling out". They need to keep you in it. It's a case of they may be limited to the degree of which they see how toxic their behaviours are - they either can't see or won't see.
Also relate to the addiction to drama,  the constant hypervigilance, waiting for the other shoe to drop - what might the absence of it feel like ?! I'm told it feels good !! But yes for some of us it is so familiar it takes time to readjust.
Keep yourself safe, focus on you and your needs.
Hope you get on well  .

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi ScarlettOHara! Welcome to the forum. I've been reading your thread the past couple weeks but didn't have time to respond. Sorry I'm late in the game. I see some parallels in my situation and yours, and at the very least, the exact same feelings.

Your sister Leah sounds like she definitely has symptoms and behaviors on some sort of PD spectrum. Have you narrowed down at all what that might be? It sounds like you think Mia might have BPD yet Leah sounds like she has something much more overt going on with her, whether tendencies or a full-blown disorder. Sometimes (though I'm 100% aware we can't actually diagnose), putting an official label on their behavior can really help put things in perspective (like uNPD, uBPD, uASPD, or even just tendencies, etc.).

Recently realizing that some of my siblings' behaviors could borderline fall in the category of psychopathic, that really strengthened my resolve to keep protecting myself by any means necessary.

"My mom and Mia have spent the entire last year trying to get me to sweep everything under the rug.  They guilt me on a regular basis."

I have a uNPD/ASPD sib, an enabling sibling, and a mother who may or may not have some very covert N tendencies, who LOVE to do this. About everything.

Years ago I started cutting off my PD sib (although more accurately, she cut me off). NC now officially for a year. Sib acted out overtly and behind the scenes in horrendous ways over the past year during that time, a parallel to Leah, which strengthened my resolve but was clearly punishment that she couldn't control me any longer. The last few years have been astounding to see how my other family would do anything to sweep it all under the rug rather than acknowledge my side of the story or any hurt feelings.

They guilt you on a regular basis because it's so much more uncomfortable (and requires a lot of bravery) to see how Leah really is. But that's at your expense. It will always be at someone's expense because that's how it all works.

How Leah behaved toward you by the average universal standard, if you talked to most people, is horrible. You deserve to have family that calls out that behavior and defends you against it.

"I just feel like there's nowhere to go from where I am.  I can't imagine a future where my family is a net positive thing in my life.  I also can't imagine life with them completely cut off.  I'm happy to never see Leah again.  Every time I spend more than a couple hours with Mia I feel more that way about her as well.  I'm so sick of being the emotional punching bag.  I'm sick of the guilt.  Family should treat you better than random people, yet mine treats me worse."

Yes, I was happy to think I'd never have to see or deal with my PD sib ever again. My feelings were unwavering after the hellish wringer she was trying to put me through.

But when it came to family members she started to influence, too, yes, the decision got so much harder! In one sense they're Good/Okay people, I love them, I wish they were still in my life because they're not at the core of the problem perse. But the way they could simply "look the other way" and allow my sibling to carry out her agenda (and even enact it, with or without them knowing it while gaslighting/projecting/DARVOing/rug sweeping and refusing to acknowledge her behavior) led me to the sad conclusion I had to cut them off, too.

I've been NC with them about 3 months. One of them I was even incredibly close with, until it was clear my uPD sib hooked her claws into her - and even though it was clear she was in need, having her own struggles, etc. I still had to step away because she was draining me and manipulating me (puppet of my sib) in completely new ways I couldn't handle.

Ultimately it comes down to a choice of whether you want to be a punching bag and hold on to family hoping they will change, or refusing to be a punching bag anymore and accepting they won't (or establishing boundaries to refuse being a punching bag while still having them in your life and seeing if that works). It's a choice no one should have to make, that's the shock of it. Neither is the right or wrong choice it just comes down to how you feel and what kind of relationship you want to have with yourself.

For me, I wanted to respect myself, be proud of my choices, and be happy. My family, overtly and/or unknowingly, did not want that for me, and I knew I'd always be under their shadow in some way if I just carried on as usual without demanding space.

"I hate that the way they treat me bad is always just on 'this side' of being deniable.  They use jokes instead of outright insults.  They always phrase things in such a way that to the untrained eye it doesn't seem like they have a mean intent.  I'm not sure if they're even consciously aware that they are mean."

Yep....they do that on purpose. It could be downright insidious, or it could be an unwillingness/cowardice to be outright aggressive/assertive and simple passive aggression, or both. Using kindness as a shield to muck over ill intentions to disguise them as "reasonable" and harmless is something my family loves to do and is incredibly good at doing. And when you call them out they have just enough to act innocent. "What are you talking about?"

When I called them out over my uPD sibs behavior towards me, that's how I was treated by my FOO, too. Lots of holier-than-thou, saintly language that barely disguised the message "That didn't happen and I don't believe you. You're the crazy/unwell one."

I see that a little in your M's saying "I prefer to see the good in people.  Everyone annoys me at some point but everyone also brings such joy to my life.  I hope you are not disconnecting from everyone."

My M said similar to me. It was an underhanded way of stating her solidarity with my PD sib and also making it seem like I was the "bad person" for not being able to see the good in people. On paper it makes her look like the good person but we both know it's saying something else.

If your M really preferred to see the "good" in people, would she not see the good in you for condemning Leah's behavior and standing up for yourself? Your kids? And the fact that you'd most likely stand up for your mom and Mia, too, if she acted that same way towards them?

She is not seeing the good in people. She is seeing what she wants to see and is not brave enough to see Leah as she truly is, not yet.

"I guess I'm struggling with guilt right now.  I know my parents just want everyone to get along.  What they don't see at all is that it was the way they treated us kids that created this dysfunction in the first place.  I want everyone to get along, too."

This thought process happens to me too, but don't let it get too far away from the very real fact that your sister's idea of "getting along" was yelling at you, kicking at you, and blackmailing you.

That is unacceptable and definitely not getting along with someone by most people's standards. And it seems like Mia and your mom really don't want to see that this treatment is even happening or confront it. They want some sort of peace, internally and externally. Unfortunately, it is clearly at your expense.

"Would I be insane to write my mom and sisters and rug sweep the assault last year?  I want to say something along the lines of "I am not over what happened but I am tired of thinking about it so I am going to get over it."  I would then lay out my boundaries... I am not to be spoken to in a condescending manner.  I am not an emotional support animal and I'm not responsible for anyone's feelings except my own.  If I become the family work horse and feel I'm being bullied or treated badly I will leave again.  Etcetera.  Is that insane?  I would not bring my daughter around the group right away.  I think she would only see my family in a group setting maybe twice a year.  I just don't trust them in that setting...Even if I do sweep everything under the rug I would not go back to the way things were previously.  I am not going to be going to weekly family gatherings.  I won't allow myself to become emotionally close to them ever again.  It would be a polite, distanced type of thing. "

Let us know how this goes. I think this is a very reasonable first line of defense and boundaries. You'll learn a lot from how they choose to respond to them.

Good luck Scarlett and hope to hear more from you here. Take care. ❤️

[ScarlettOHara]

DistanceNotDefense thank you for your reply.  It is so refreshing to be around people who get it. 

I really cannot decide how to feel or what to do.  I feel sorry for my family because their behavior is sad and pathetic.  I don't believe any of them are truly happy on anything more than a momentary basis.  They're all afraid to examine their own behavior and their self-images are so flimsy that they're incapable of admitting any fault in anything.  It's just a sad state.  I know I'm not perfect and not to excuse my own behavior, but damn if they didn't frequently push me so far that I felt reacting harshly was my only option when I was young.  Now, I don't do that, I simply leave the situation.  But, as we've seen, that's not the "right" reaction either.

I want the awkwardness over.  My daughter spent some time with my parents a couple weeks ago and somehow my mom told her that Leah wants to apologize but I won't let her.  WTF.  If Leah wanted to give me an honest, real apology she could easily send me an email or write a letter.  I filter her emails but she is not blocked or anything.  In early September she wanted me to go to some event that my mom and Mia were going to with her, but there was no actual apology in her email.  Instead she downplayed what has happened to "tension between us" and said that she wants to "have a good time and move forward".  I'm sure she does... anything to avoid having to admit that her behavior was totally out of line and insane. 

I wonder if Leah has BPD with rage.  I don't really know.   She tends to hold things together pretty well and then just totally explodes.  It's a definite cycle with her, just like it was with our dad.  Mia, on the other hand, is constantly upset about something.  Very minor things that wouldn't even register with most people have her so sad and depressed she talks about cutting an suicide. 

Anyway, I still don't know if I should try my rugsweeping idea or not.  I don't even know where to start.  Do I send an email?  Tell my mom somehow?  I'm so confused...

[DistanceNotDefense]

IMy daughter spent some time with my parents a couple weeks ago and somehow my mom told her that Leah wants to apologize but I won't let her.  WTF.  If Leah wanted to give me an honest, real apology she could easily send me an email or write a letter.

Oof Yeah, your family has many avenues to contact you and issue an apology, and it would even seem your mother seems to recognize you deserve one from Leah. But her way if getting it to happen is to put guilt on you and her granddaughter....? She's clearly missing the bigger picture.

This is just my humble opinion, take it with a grain of salt, but this creates a new problem. She's now bringing your daughter into this and that is psychologically very unhealthy for all involved, maybe your daughter most of all. She may be trying to get your daughter to see her side and influence you through her in order to keep up more subtle control. Triangulate and play favorites. It's more pressure on you to be the one that "makes up" with Leah, instead of finally condemning Leah's outrageous behavior. Pressuring you is easier.

Anyway, I still don't know if I should try my rugsweeping idea or not.  I don't even know where to start.  Do I send an email?  Tell my mom somehow?  I'm so confused...

My hardest challenge with unhealthy FOO so far has been validating myself and my choices on my own. There's been no one with me to say "yes that's the right choice!" And I still think I'm doing something wrong sometimes. But I think part of the healing process is taking my self-validation back after years of having feelings and respect invalidated by family separating me from my gut instincts (and me doing it to myself, too, in order to survive).  And also finding validation when you really need it from this forum 

Make the choice that feels the most right for you. If it somehow ends up being the "wrong" choice, you'll still be OK. You're still a healthy and healing person who can admit they did something wrong and state that you hurt someone and you're sorry. And if you admit you made a mistake to someone who is also healthy like you, and who loves you despite your mistakes, then that's OK. Even in this situation, you should have the freedom to make a faux pas and family that truly accepts you as you are would forgive that. If they don't, and they use it just as more "fodder" to prove its all on you, well...it's just another sign that they are unwell, enmeshed, or continuing to enable a PDs behavior at your expense.

It's OK (and normal) to not feel sure or feel like every choice is right AND wrong in some way. The best part is you don't need to make a choice right away. You can sit with the facts and process them for as long as it takes until there is a decision that feels really right and more clarity emerges.

Listen to your gut. It's already led you to this forum and given you the feeling that you need more distance between yourself and your family to be healthier.

[ScarlettOHara]

Hi again... Thank you to everyone who has replied.  This forum is such a breath of fresh air after all the gaslighting, DARVO and other nonsense I get in the real world. 

As a sort of update I told my mom and Mia that I was considering coming to Thanksgiving this year (covid not withstanding) but that I felt I needed to somehow test the waters with Leah before I would bring my daughter around her.  So, I guess we ran that "experiment" yesterday.  My parents and sisters and I went to my parents' house.  It was okay, I guess.  Nothing overtly awful happened.  It was pretty awkward though.  I felt as though Leah was trying to take jabs at me in her way, but of course it's nothing I could prove. 

Leah kept talking to my mom and Mia about furniture for their houses.  Apparently Leah has been playing interior designer for them a lot lately.  It probably shouldn't bug me but it does.  Leah and I have both been interested in interior design for years.  I personally think I'm better at it, but obviously it's subjective.  I happen to work in the industry though.  It seemed like Leah really wanted to drive home how much she was helping my mom and Mia with their homes and how involved she was.  I hate it, but it pushes some sort of button in me.  I don't have time to help them design their houses now.  I don't have time to help them with their furniture.  My business is extremely busy.  And yet, I don't know, it got under my skin somehow. 

I'm supposed to see them all again for Thanksgiving (probably virtually).  I'm not too excited about it and my gut reaction is to skip it.   But I'm also just so tired of living with this over me.  I just want everyone off my back.  I want to have minimal involvement with all of them.  I feel like if I can survive Thanksgiving then I don't have to see any of them again until Christmas (again, covid pending).  After Christmas, I'm free until Easter, maybe longer...

[WinterStar]

ScarlettOHara,

I think your gut is trying to tell you something.

Leah hasn't made a change. She temporarily stopped overtly dysfunctional behavior, instead continuing the abuse in a covert way with plausible deniability. She will almost certainly be overtly abusive in the future, but for now, she will just push your buttons and hope to get a reaction from you, which would make you look crazy.

Skip Thanksgiving if you want to. You don't have to give a reason. "Sorry, it won't work for me" is enough. Will the fam try to start drama about your decision? I'm sure they will. The threat of drama is how they keep you stuck doing what you don't want to do.

[ScarlettOHara]

ScarlettOHara,

I think your gut is trying to tell you something.

Leah hasn't made a change. She temporarily stopped overtly dysfunctional behavior, instead continuing the abuse in a covert way with plausible deniability. She will almost certainly be overtly abusive in the future, but for now, she will just push your buttons and hope to get a reaction from you, which would make you look crazy.

Skip Thanksgiving if you want to. You don't have to give a reason. "Sorry, it won't work for me" is enough. Will the fam try to start drama about your decision? I'm sure they will. The threat of drama is how they keep you stuck doing what you don't want to do.

I agree with you.  No one in my family has changed or even reflected on their own behavior at all.  As soon as they think I'm full "back" they will resume their normal, terrible treatment towards me.  I know it.  My only hope currently is just to make it clear that I am not fully back in the fold.  I plan to turn down most invitations going forward.  We'll see how Thanksgiving goes.  My daughter really wants to see her cousins, which I hate.  I feel like I need to balance things so she can see them a couple times per year an no more.

I guess I have to use their own tactics against them... I have to be just on this side of deniability.  Come around just enough that no one can accuse me of anything.  Maybe that's a terrible plan, but in a lot of ways it seems like the easiest plan.  I don't know but I guess I'm currently experimenting to figure out what will work best. 

[LemonLime]

Oh Scarlett.  Wow.  She kicked you!!  It's just amazing and unbelievable, isn't it?   It is so abusive.
So much of your story is familiar to me.   UPD sibling has always been what you might call "bossy" and indulges herself in rages big and small.  Has done this her whole life.  Seemed to be improving until a family vaca in Europe a few years ago when she really let loose on me for a mistake on my part.  A small mistake.  I finally, at that time, put my foot down and calmly let her know that if she treated me this way I would have to distance myself.  I didn't say it, I just did it.   And of course I've been DARVO'd ever since.
I'm lucky that my parents "get it".  I had a long talk with them about my perception that she has a "problem".  They agreed she has a "problem" though one of my parents is more apt to characterize it as a "quirk".  But I have learned, after extensive reading, that the reason my sibling is as entitled as she is, is because she was always allowed to have rages and was never held accountable.  Never required to apologize or explain.   So toddler tantrums turned into teenage tantrums and rages, and continued from there.  Everyone knew she was "the emotional one" and sort of uneasily chuckled about it.  But nobody put a stop to it.  So sib was quite surprised that at mid-life someone had finally gotten the balls to say "no more".   Of course she will DARVO.   And that is painful. 
I will have limited contact with her, but COVID has a silver lining and I haven't had to see much of her since the rage.   But the time is coming.
I have done lots of meditation and that helps me keep an emotional distance.  My plan is to be cordial.   Just cordial.   We used to have a warm relationship because her rages are not particularly frequent and she is otherwise a truly fun person.  But her rages are vicious (though no kicking).  They eviscerate people.  And no amount of fun and charm can make up for eviscerating people periodically.

I'm the only one in the family to take a stand.  I am quite sure that many many people in her life have taken a stand and been annihilated.   Because we don't live in close proximity, I don't know of all the relationship carnage in her wake, but all her life she has trashed people behind their backs.  Not gotten along in groups or with her bosses.  Everyone is stupid and mean to her it seems.   Classic classic NPD.    My suspicion is that once people are in the "devalued" phase of their relationship with her, they back away slowly and are happy to get away with their lives still mostly intact.   Back away and RUN!!!   I would like to do the same but there are kids involved, and I am going to try to make it work with VLC.

I have a good relationship with my parents.   She has a good relationship with my parents.   But she and I do not have much of a relationship with each other any more.   My parents are "rug sweepers" and prefer not to talk about anything emotional.  Which, looking back, is one reason my sib is as bad as she is now.

I'm sorry you are experiencing this.  My advice is to not stoop to their level or their tricks.  Be real, be cordial, use your actions more than your words.  Meditate or practice mindfulness.  Be ready to walk out the door at any moment and take a walk or a drive.   I recommend the book "The Gaslight Effect" very highly.  It helps you know what to do in the moment.   Take care and post again soon!

[LemonLime]

Hi Scarlett,
Just an FYI that I tried to PM you but your inbox is full.  Thought you might want to know.