Can't decide whether to go NC or stay VLC

[Hilltop]

I recently read a book which cemented in my mind that my parents will never change.  I think I finally understood that they don't feel empathy,  that my feelings don't matter to them.  I think I am finally understanding that they will do/say horrible things but cannot see that they are in the wrong. To them you are actually in the wrong, all the time and they believe that.  I have been going lower and lower contact with this year being VLC.

The thing that stops me from going NC is that I can go see them every now and again for coffee and it is fine.  I just don't know when it won't be fine.  My parents are covert so for eg I visited them for coffee and my mother was saying to me how females in my chosen field don't do a good job and shouldn't be in that line of work".  Obviously a put down and that's what it is like.  Walking away having to get over the little jabs that come my way.  She told me to my face that I was a difficult child when I was growing up, again I'm left feeling like its bad but thinking I'm just being over sensitive.

I told them I didn't want to hear about my sister so I spent every  visit this year hearing about my sister, its exhausting.  I don't enjoy the relationship and don't trust them.  Then I wonder if my boundary of not hearing about my sister is controlling on my part or would normal parents respect that boundary.

However going NC seems so extreme, I just feel like things need to be worse to do that or there needs to be a massive blow up or fight so I can walk away.  A few years ago I caught my mother lying about me to family, a massive lie that painted me in a really bad light, I didn't speak to her for 2 years and I am so angry at myself for going back.  Recently at a birthday lunch my father said something to my husband which to me sounded like he was trying to cause trouble between my DH and I.  It surprised me but because it's not overly obvious I doubt myself and my fathers intentions although deep down I know his intentions were not good, it's just so hard to accept.

How has everyone else come to the decision to go NC?  I want to, I just don't know if I can justify this decision, it feels so extreme, has anyone else felt this and did you overcome it, what made you overcome that feeling and are you happy with NC?

[Happypants]

Hilltop - i can't give advice as I've haven't solved this issue for myself, but just wanted you to know that you're not alone. There's a lot of covert manipulation goes on on with my parents, but in between times can be convincingly "normal". I wouldn't even count myself as LC as there is a lot going on just now with their health but i still control if and when i speak to them depending on whether i feel up to it.

All i can say is that in the past when there have been calm periods of nice, almost open, communication but they are definitely the exception and not the norm despite me trying desperately hard to normalise and explain away their behaviour. Things always revert back without fail.  My levels of contact have wavered but i have made myself uncontactable during difficult times and have been amazed at the difference in my mental health, general outlook on life and my ability to trust other people.  Every time i have a period of peace i come back with stronger boundaries and a stronger sense of self (and less inclination towards questioning myself). I wonder if you may reach a stage where NC is the only next logical step, and perhaps even asking the question on here is part of that process?  I believe that one day I'll know that there's no other option although at the moment it feels like an overreaction. 

[Hepatica]

Hi Hilltop,

I think making the decision to go no contact is part of the process of becoming more clear (Out of the FOG) and seeing our situations as they really are (as hard as that can be.) It's really hard and I feel ya.

Would it help to make a list of everything, even in point form, that reveals covert and overt abuse?

I want to point out that the comment by your mother about women in your line of work not being suited for it is pretty overt. She's trying to make you doubt yourself. Telling you you were a difficult child is also a "tell." She's gaslighting you. She was expecting parenthood to be easy? It isn't with any child and esp. if your child see's you for who you are. A PD parent can't handle that, so they gaslight the child.

Another overt is the massive lie she told the entire family. That's not normal. And the birthday where your father said something odd to your Dh.

None of this sounds safe and loving to me. When you are near to them you would always be on alert.

Because my uNPD father and sister are covert it has been really hard for me as well. They work behind the scenes and I found out things by accident (ie. my sister's friends unfriending me on facebook and my cousins telling me that my father was talking about me behind my back and they had to defend me.) It was really terrible finding that out about my father. I felt so unsafe and so misunderstood that my private life was being torn apart by people who had no empathy.

It may be that you get one more piece of information or one more run in and you're done, but in the mean while keep yourself safe by understanding what you are dealing with. They are not safe people. They most likely will say something undermining to you again. Can you limit your exposure to them, tweaking it to less and less over time? Be prepared that they may do something unacceptable at some point and have yourself mentally in a space where you say, enough. I'm done and walk away.

So much of what you're going thru I relate with. My father cannot let go that I am distanced from my sister and every time I'd visit my parents they would talk non-stop about their visits with her and the grandchildren. It made me feel so left out, even though I had chosen to back away. I would try to sit there and be mature, smiling and faking being happy for all of them, while inside feeling so terribly alone.

The thing is I cannot imagine sitting with them and talking away about someone they were estranged with. (My mom doesn't talk to her sister and my father has been estranged from every sibling at one time or another) and I've never thought it would be nice to sit there and babble on about my time with the person they were estranged with. I wouldn't want to hurt them like that.

They really don't worry too much about hurting us and that's the bottom line. And it's too much over time.

I have a good therapist and sometimes reading my list of what my family has done helps but none of this is easy. It comes down to self-care in the end and really believing that we deserve better treatment. What's seemingly normal in our family doesn't happen in healthy families.

It's so sad. I've been feeling quite a lot of grief over it these past few weeks and pretty much dreading holidays this year. All of this sucks but I have to believe I am leading myself to a more peaceful, joyful existence as I drag myself out of an old toxic situation.

Lots of love to you. Remember self-care and compassion bc this is a hefty challenge but I have to believe part of learning to love ourselves means we keep ourselves safely away from the reminders of abuse from our childhood and the current, more psychological abuse they employ on us as adults.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi Hilltop. In regards to your question about going NC, I took the plunge.

Things did kind of blow up in a way. I blew them up, sort of. I was tired of secrets, passive aggression, dishonesty, manipulation. I confronted enabling FOO about smearing/manipulative/defamatory behavior towards myself and my DH behind the scenes, incited by my uNPD sib who has also revealed ASPD/psychopathic tendencies in the process.

Sib was trying to establish horrible lies about my marriage and my DH (saying he was a wifebeater), and was even at the point of trying to enlist FM friends to dig up dirt on my DH from his ex (thankfully the friend thought that was too crazy and it's all untrue, obviously, and told me about it.)

I was enraged and had had enough. I also needed to protect my DH. I was gaslit/rug-swept as a response. FOO pretended this was surprising/news to them though there was evidence all over that they talked about these rumors behind my back often. I'd already been NC pretty much with uPDsib for almost a year.

When I write this out, and read it again, it totally justifies NC for right now in my mind once again. And I'm sure this sounds like an extreme enough reason to you. When I read your reasons too, they seem totally justifiable to me.

I just don't think there's ever going to be a good enough reason that ever makes folks like us feel 100% OK with cutting out family at first ( unless the circumstances are extreme, like risk to ones life, etc.) and we have to work through that. And I do think it's because we still have empathy and love them. But enough is enough. My FOO had no empathy for my experiences at the time and I made the hard decision that I would put myself and my FOC first. I feel amazing and so happy 3 months later though I deal with deep-seated grief from time to time.

Maybe someday they'll wise up (the enablers, prob never the PD) but I'm not holding my breath.

[Andeza]

I came to my decision, personally, because I realized I was expending crazy amounts of energy dealing with even brief contact with my uBPDm. Also, each and every interaction after coming Out of the FOG left me increasingly frustrated with her actions and words. I lived, for a short time, in a constant state of irritation and annoyance. The damage to me was profound. In light of that, the decision was easy, but following through on it was extremely hard. It was less difficult when I realized that every single contact with her was toxic in some way. As such I could not justify staying in contact. What helped was knowing that she was draining off valuable energy I needed to handle a new baby.

How do I feel about it? We are going on a year and I feel better than ever. There is soooo much peace and tranquility in my life now it's amazing.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I'd like to point out that it isn't removing abusive people from one's life that's extreme, it's the abuse that leads to the necessity of such an action. Always put the responsibility for NC where it belongs. You may be the one making the choice, but they are the ones who brought you to that point after a lifetime of your trying very very hard with them. I would also say that DND did not "blow it up." The people calling your husband a wifebeater etc. are far more to blame but they love to play innocent. Don't let them, even in how you talk about events to yourself! As you say, they are choosing to be exactly the same as they've ever been. You are the one who has changed, and it's on them that they cannot be in relationship in a way that works for you, if your standards are reasonable. (Hint: Not abusive is a very low bar.)

Anyway. My story is similar to DND's with my own FOO. The details are different, but it's the same story. I had enough and stood up for myself, and asked for some space, they blew up and literally went psycho. Previously ignoring parents starting harassing me, writing letters to smear me to anyone and everyone they thought might be able to put me back in my place, telling all sorts of lies, and getting increasingly threatening. It ended up with a cease and desist letter, I moved with no forwarding address. We're done. While I was certainly not intending to be NC forever, their subsequent behavior after I asked for some space for myself and then kept that boundary led me to no other healthy option.

I agree that you don't need any more justification than you already have. It's within your rights to make that choice. There's no objective criteria for "bad enough for NC." However, out of prudence you might just let things drift rather than throwing down the gauntlet, so to speak. What I said was, "Your behavior in this one particular incident really hurt me. I need to take care of (particular crisis) in my own life before I can work this out with you, so I need to take a break for a time." What they heard was a declaration of war. Starboard Song says, rightly, that NC is fighting words. If I knew then what I knew now I would have gradually disappeared.  The other benefit of a slow fade is that it doesn't have to be final. You can let the ambiguity work to your benefit. If you haven't set a clear boundary, but are simply decreasingly available, it's harder for them to fight against it, and they might not even notice you're gone until all the other supply dries up. You don't have to directly trigger the narc rage. Which I did. Because silly me, I thought a timeout might help everyone to take an honest look at themselves.  Cordelia, so young, so naive.  You have a leg up in that you fully acknowledge and are accepting that they will never change!

[Boat Babe]

 

[D.]

Just want to say I really appreciate this thread.  the input on putting the owness where it belongs and the courage to put the question out there in the first place.

[Jolie40]

only been 3 mos NC for me... stopped calling & emails
sleeping 7 hrs now as my stress level has decreased

don't want to give specifics what happened this past yr
all I can say is "it was chaos" with PD parent & all siblings (I'm SG)


when joined forum, did feel some guilt over going NC & posted about it
however, with each day that goes by, I feel more relief than guilt

[GettingOOTF]

I also used to think NC was extreme. I didn't think my situation was bad enough for NC. Mine actually sounds very similar to you.

For me it was about accepting that my family's treatment of me was "extreme" and that NC was a valid and appropriate response to their treatment.

For me those little digs simply got harder and harder to recover from.

I didn't have much contact with my family as I live in another country in a different timeline so I thought I could manage VLC.

It's hard to describe the freedom NC has given me. I'm finally able to be myself. I had no idea how much they were weighing me down until I went NC.

I still feel a lot of guilt over it and I do worry I will regret it when my father passes but those feelings really are for a family other than mine. For me I need to accept they are who they are. In the mean time I'm enjoying the daily peace and freedom NC gives me.

The thing with abuse is that it's not 100% abuse all of the time, else no one would stand for it. There are periods of calm and "normal" interactions. That's how the abusers keep their victims "hooked".

The choices are to learn to live the the abuse the best you can - and there are people who make this with boundaries, therapy etc. or to go NC. I tried the boundaries and was in therapy for years. I'm not NC.

[Hilltop]

Thanks so much for everyone's replies, there are definitely some things I hadn't considered before. 

A few years ago I got rid of the home phone.  I found that my mother would throw a few jabs in during phone calls so when I got rid of the phone it was great.  Putting that boundary into place worked well for me, she won't call me on my mobile only text.

Yesterday I was going through all the text messages between my mom and me and they could almost be described as supportive, caring even.  They are normal and I think this is what is confusing me.  Communication through email and text my mother won't say anything mean and I guess this is because it can be shown to other people.  It can also be read later and I guess it stands out.

My parents only says things when I see them in person and I'm left feeling angry and confused.  The digs are harder to let go of and they drain me.

I have decided to stop seeing my parents in person.  I will communicate via text only.  I'm going to write down a lot of what has been said as otherwise I sometimes end up feeling like I may have misunderstood, overreacted, heard wrong etc.  This will stop the jabs (for now) and will give me some space to work on healing. 

I'm not going to think too much of what will happen down the track, if she starts texting jabs then I guess I'll deal with that when it comes.  When I think about it I don't enjoy visiting my parents because of the jabs thrown my way, its unpleasant.  This year I had started to think that if they want the relationship to change its on them and I didn't see them as much.  I'm done, I've tried, I'm going to do what works for me.  That feeling of always having to fix things is from my childhood, my parents are adults, if they want to talk they can and that's the thing I know they won't because they can't but its not my problem now.  They are in their 70's I shouldn't have to listen to their put downs any longer.  I'm going to give myself at least 2 years of not visiting and see how I feel, its a start and I do feel relief at the thought of not seeing them and not having to worry about what they are going to say and the horrible way I am left feeling when I leave.

Thank you for your replies, it clarified things for me, I may still be in slight denial but I'm progressing.

[Stardust1982]

Hi Hilltop. This is a great topic. And I appreciate the responses here.

I went NC (but broke it at the beginning of this year) because my parents have done something extreme (abused a family member) and that was unacceptable to me. They also like to take jabs at me (put-downs I guess they are called) and make fun of my lifestyle-almost all the things I do is criticized. I don't react to this at all because it's them being mentally ill and their actions have nothing to do with me.
Still, I find it hard to justify going no contact with them. I think making a list of their past abuses is a good idea-reading that list often can be a reminder of what you need to put up with and that you deserve better people and better life experiences.

I'll save this thread for later, it is very useful.

[M0009803]

My upDM was a master at the jabs.

They are designed to hurt your self-esteem, and make you insecure about your own abilities.

This keeps them in control, and you stay within their orbit (with them occupying the more powerful position in the relationship which is what they want)

I ultimately decided (in my case), that my uPDM was not going to change, primarily because in her case she did these things based on the logic of "its for your own good", or "I have your best interests at heart".  You just can't reason with an abusive person who thinks that way.   Its a no win situation were you will just end up spinning your wheels for years and years trying to engage with her.

Its tough to put boundaries with people like your mother as well because they are very good at being covert.   Their comments tend to be insidious (and deniable), and because they are your parents, they know your life story (and weak points), so they know which areas to target for maximum effect.

One thing to consider with your mother (if she is only like this in person and not on the phone).  You can record your conversations (not sure of this is legal were you live) via a phone app while you talk to them.  This will allow you to better understand what is going on (do not confront her though as she will just get enraged.  This is only for your own consumption).