working through new dynamics

[athene1399]

SD19 is Out of the FOG and the new shift in dynamics has been a little difficult for SO and I to sort through. I thought it would be easier, but it isn't. Over all it's not bad. I just am trying to figure out the new balance. SD has asked us to discuss some past situations since she now realizes that BM (SO's BPDxw) was alienating her from SO. Before we just didn't talk about it to SD, so now I've been trying to navigate how much we should open up about things. We still talk about BM in a compassionate way, but I wonder if at times we say too much.

For example, SO told SD that BM was thinking about suing him for money becasue she got in debt 8 years ago and blames him (they were still married but it was after they separated). I think he realized after he said it that he shouldn't have. Then we discussed SD telling both parents not to discuss things with her that should be between them. But if this happened while we were in the thick of things years ago, SO wouldn't have said anything to SD at all. Part of me thinks that SD should know what her mother is scheming, but then the other half of me thinks "That is exactly what BM felt she was doing when she told SD everything that was going on during the custody case and how she felt SO was the bad guy and SD had"a right to know who he really is"." So probably the best course of action is if we don't know if we should tell SD, then we just shouldn't.

Then there's other stuff we are working through. We always suspected verbal abuse was going on but thought the extent of it was BM bad mouthing SO in front of SD. SD asked SO a bit ago if BM verbally abused him. He said yeah and then SD started crying and told us all the mean things BM used to say her her. I wished there was more we could have done while it was going on. We had the law guardian investigate everything but there was no way at the time to prove it. So SO and I have been wondering if we should have done more or if what we did was enough. I guess we always wondered that.

SD feels a lot of guilt for not realizing what was going on. We told her not to feel guilty because we completely understand that she was so young that she wouldn't have been able to understand the situation at the time. And we discussed how some of the verbal abuse has led to her anxiety. We discussed how she can recognize the negative thoughts and can work on labeling and replacing them. We've been trying to validate what she went through while telling her it isn't her fault. But the whole thing is just upsetting to say the least.

She is in T but it's with the T who is friends with BM. SD even mentioned the conflict of interest (becasue the T was also BM's T for a bit)  but said that she wanted to go to this T since BM took her there before and she was familiar with her. SO and I aren't happy about it, but at least SD is in T. But the other thing is this T chewed out the law guardian and told her BM had no mental health issues and that the law guardian had no right to do all this digging into BM's background,  then a couple weeks later BM was back in the psych ward. That was like 5 years ago, but I still don't like this T because of it. We don't trust her. We haven't told this to SD. I don't know if we should. But SO and I did tell SD we think she should go to someone else, but are glad she is in therapy.

[Penny Lane]

Hi athene! It's good to see you back around here though I'm sorry it's because you're having these struggles.

First can I stop and say, you and your SO have done an AMAZING job with all this. SD is in such a good place compared to a couple years ago. She is going to need to spend a lot of time and energy healing. But that is NOT anything you did. That is because of BM's verbal abuse and her lies. This is not your fault, you have already made things a million times better for her, and now you can do some stuff that will make it a little easier but she's still going to have to do the hard work of healing.

I think the message you want to convey to her is "you have nothing to feel guilty about, you were a child, you were doing your best to survive, now you're an adult you can focus on healing and thriving." When she talks about feeling guilty, not only do you not blame her, but there was NO WAY for her as a child to understand the dynamics. Her mom let her down by not treating her in a healthy way, and there wasn't really anything she can do. But the good news is that from now on she's in control and she can chose to live in a different way than her mom.

Going a step further I think it would be great for her to hear "We are so proud of you. You are so strong and you've survived so much. It's going to be hard for awhile here, but I know you can heal from this because you're already through the hardest part."

About telling her stuff about her mom: I do kind of feel like she has a right to know this stuff, IF she wants to. I don't think you should let her continue to believe her mom's lies, that you know for a fact are lies. I think she should know that her mom has a pattern of stealing money from people, of causing fights and then lying to other people to get them to take her side, and so on. The real question in my mind is how much, and when? We deal with this on a smaller scale with DSS and here are some of my guiding principles.

- If he directly asks something, answer factually, unemotionally and age appropriately.
- If he says something that clearly comes from a mistaken impression from BM, correct it.
- If something comes up in conversation that I know BM wouldn't want him to hear, I can say it. But only if I would have said it anyway even if BM wasn't in the picture. (ie - and not that you would do this at all - don't look for conversation topics where BM's bad behavior just "comes up.")

I've thought a lot about what we will say if the kids say, or imply, "why didn't you protect me from this?" Your SD isn't really saying that, she's more internalizing it, but this might help her as well. What I came up with was: "We tried our very hardest with the resources we had at the time. Sometimes we had to make decisions that put you in the fire in the short term, because we felt like they would benefit you in the long term. It was hard for us and harder for you, and I'm sorry that we weren't able to do more."

Finally, on the therapist: I agree that that's bad news although SD has shown such good judgment in so many areas that I think you've got to trust her. That being said, does she know all the bad stuff the therapist did? This might be a situation where she deserves to know all the truth in order to make good decisions. It doesn't have to be a whole thing like THIS IS WHY WE HATE THE THERAPIST. But I'm imagining one conversation where you sit her down and say, "Look, you can go to whatever therapist you want, and if she's helping you that's great. Our concerns come from a couple incidents that you might not know about. (Explain). If that's OK with you, that's OK with us - we just want you to have all the information. And we'll never bring it up again." (And really don't!) If she does know all that stuff and keeps going ... well, she's making remarkable progress so she must be doing something right, even if it's with a bad therapist.

And again, GOOD JOB! You and your SO have done an amazing job parenting to get her this far.

[Free2Bme]

 

athene,

I am happy to hear of SD progress, so much better than the alternative (FOG). 

What PL said here reflects how I would handle it as well.  I would add that maybe at a calm moment when SD isn't feeling overwhelmed, you and SO could suggest other options for T, empower her.  SD is an adult and can now make choices for herself.    Maybe she feels like she'll get heat from BM? 

I have been attempting to navigate these issues too, what to tell and how much with my 4 young adult kid's.  It's really tough as they are all in different places, one is deeply in the FOG.  I try to encourage mine that this hardship will not be wasted and that they will have discernment, strength and compassion in areas that others might not have because of this experience.  (not that I would wish it upon them).

It is such a heavy burden for a young person to take on, but she is really blessed to have you and her F. 

[athene1399]

Thank you, both. Your advice and encouragement has meant a lot to me. I always question if we are doing the right thing or not. I know SD has been through a lot and I don't want to inadvertently make things worse. But I also need to learn not to constantly second guess myself.

SD is also lucky becasue she has older siblings from BM's first marriage who have been Out of the FOG since SO and BM split up. They have been little to no contact with BM for a while. so I think they also help SD navigate what is going on. And they probably know more about the situation than we do. I know grandma was giving SD a hard time at first about not talking to BM. BM was telling her whole family that SD was just not talking to her to punish her (like saying she was a victim who did nothing to deserve this). SD's brother told grandma what happened. BM left out a lot of what happened that led to SD moving out and going VL/NC. BM even denied to SD that she kicked her out. We even told SD that BM texted SO to let him know she kicked SD out. So kind of told her she was being gaslighted without really saying it. I think I talked about this before.

I'm glad you didn't think we said too much about the money scam thing. When SO told SD she was kind of like "I thought BM changed". So maybe it's a good thing SO told her. I've kind of been waiting for something to come through from the court about BM suing SO for the money, but haven't seen anything yet. Maybe she realized she can't win. I'm trying not to worry about it.

With the T, I don't know if SD's afraid to get heat from BM or if she just wants to go to someone who she's familiar with. Without bringing up the situation, SO and I said we didn't like the conflict of interest and thought she should see someone else, but if SD felt it was ok then we would support her decision. SD did mention before that she would like to do T with us some day just to work through what happened with the alienation. So maybe we could bring it up as "we are open to going to T with you, but aren't open to going to that T due to x" and then explain what happened. But so far the T has supported SD going no contact, so maybe she learned her lesson (I mean a lot of people get duped by BM).  However, you still should not be the T of a child of one of your clients as I understand it. I did give SD a list of Ts that are near her school. So maybe one day she will want one who is closer to where she is living.

"We are so proud of you. You are so strong and you've survived so much. It's going to be hard for awhile here, but I know you can heal from this because you're already through the hardest part."

This is just great. And while we've kind of said this in different ways, I don't think you can say this too many times. Especially when it comes to discussing that she shouldn't feel guilty about things she couldn't understand. Her mother took advantage of that. Shame on her and not SD.

The other part that I think SD will have to learn that will be difficult is that BM always says how much she has changed for the better when in reality she hasn't at all. There will always be the cycle of her doing well for a bit and then spiraling out. SO and I know this. I don't think SD has accepted it yet. She's made some connections with BM's mental health and frequent hospitalizations from it. After the last one SD said that she is starting to remember that this happened a lot in her childhood, but she had blocked it out. And I don't think the cycles will ever stop. But I guess at least now we can be a bit more candid about BM's behaviors and help SD through it. And help her to figure out what is the best way for her to deal with it and not get overly stressed out by it.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi Athene,

It is amazing how much has changed for you all.  I agree with the other posts, you should be honest with SD if she has questions about things that happened.  I would just be very cautious and make sure it's done with compassion towards BM.  You can state facts, but too much negative information about BM could really impact SD.    I think you already know this, hence your post.  We have a box of communication from BM that was for court, it's in a box, duct taped shut, in the attic.  In the heat of conflict, you always think that the documentation will someday show an adult child what really happened.  But, in reality,  we could never expose the kids to the horrors of what is in that box. 

I think as they get older and come Out of the FOG, they ask the questions about the things that never sat right with them to start.  Like, they knew what the PD was saying didn't fit, but they couldn't wrap their little minds around why it didn't fit.  They had to survive, and therefore justify behaviors that weren't ok.

My DSS is more of less Out of the FOG.  He doesn't' buy into his Mom's games, but he lays as low as he can to get through the time he as with her.  He doesn't tell us what he experiences, I know it is pretty horrible because at times he breaks down and becomes inconsolable.  We don't press for information.  Sadly, I don't think there is anything that he could tell us that would allow us to change the situation.  BM has worked pretty hard to lock down her custody. 

But we focus on what we CAN do- and that is give a safe haven and help him navigate difficult situations where we can.  He isn't trying to sort through things right now, but there may be a day when he stars asking questions. 

I don't like SD's T situation, but of course it is up to you.  I wonder if the thought of a new T is overwhelming, and you guys start therapy together with someone else that makes her comfortable, she might open her mind to a change.  At the end of the day, as long as the T isn't directing SD in an unhealthy direction, or feeding information to BM- she may realize she would lose her license.

So happy you all are working through this- you all deserve the happiness that will come from spending time together!

[athene1399]

I think that is what is happening, as SD has come Out of the FOG she's starting to question all the things she didn't fully understand or that didn't make sense. We've tried to alleviate the guilt she has felt, because it often seems that SD thinks she should have been able to know what is going on. I've told it is very difficult to do that with someone you love. We often don't want to believe the truth and that is okay.

Even though the T is not ideal, she has supported SD going NC with BM. I think though SO and I should at least say that we are open to T with SD if there is anything she wishes to explore, however we are not comfortable doing that with her current T. Then I can leave it at that and if SD asks more I can explain. When SD first started going to the T, she did say at first that she wondered about the conflict of interest but decided to go with her anyway, so maybe she is questioning it even if she isn't ready to go to someone else yet.

And SO and I do use compassion when talking about BM. It must be difficult for SD to go through this and having us not being compassionate for someone she cares about would just be more confusing (and kind of mean, even if I really don't like BM but pretend I do). I think it still holds true that no matter what age SD is, if we say things in the wrong way she may feel like she has to choose one parent over the other and I still don't want to put her in that situation. It does help me to think long and hard before I say anything about it.  Which is a very good thing.

I am sorry to hear about DSS and how sometimes he just breaks down. That happened a few time with SD when we were in the thick of it and she just texted SO to come get her and still hasn't spoken about what happened with her and BM either time. But i think it's good to know that you are his safe place and DSS is comfortable to show those emotions in front of you and DH. He probably has to keep so much in at BM's.

I am happy for our time with SD now. In the back of my mind, when her and I plan something I worry that she will call me last minute to say she is going to see BM instead. But that hasn't happened yet. She says she wants to stay with us over break, and I still think it isn't going to happen because in that past she would say that and then it wouldn't happen. So we should see. But it doesn't make sense to spend energy worrying about something I cannot predict, and as you said, I will enjoy our time with her now.

[Stepping lightly]

She's so lucky to have you as a step mom :-)

[athene1399]

Thank you, SL.  I still haven't talked to her about the T. We had lunch the other day and nothing came up about BM so I didn't want to bring it up. I don't know if I am just making excuses or if waiting for what feels like the "right time" is the better route. She's been through so much, I just don't want to bring it up if she's having a good day. Maybe if she does stay if us over break it would be better to talk then. Then we would be in the house and not out at a restaurant.

[Penny Lane]

I'd say don't force it. She's doing well, the counselor isn't a crisis, it doesn't seem to be having repercussions. Enjoy your time with her! Especially any time that isn't about BM at all, that is a gift. I think you can say your peace if it comes up but otherwise let it go.

[athene1399]

That makes sense. Thank you!

[oak_tree]

Just wanted to say thanks, Athene, for posting. I feel like your situation could be mine in a couple of years, if things go well (I don't mean to say things are "good" for you, or to minimize your struggles, of course! It's just my SD is still fogged, and it's encouraging to see when a young adult comes Out of the FOG. It's also encouraging to read about how patient you are and how you deal with talking about BM.